Knicks · Why are we not thinking like Leon does, part 2. Why did Leon trade for Mikal? (page 3)
Nalod wrote:HE literally traded for Durant like the day he bought the team.
He did, then made trades and is now facing a mountain of salary and luxury tax and Durant is on a very short timeline. Kevin is going to turn 36 at end of Sept and got $51m and $54m left. With Beal mirroring that timeline and salary level.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/tax/_/year/2...
Right now, Suns have $220m in salary and $188m in luxury tax for 2024-25, it goes up to total of $430m next year. They paid $70m luxury for this past season with $190m in salary.
Their one out of being meaningful beyond the 2 year window of Durant and Beal is a short one and they are berefeft of picks cause of the Durant Beal trades.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
There is a new (?) owner in Dallas too and an owner in Houston who is hot and heavy for Durant and who just acquired a bunch of the Phoenix picks, I think.
Suns got swept 4-0 in the first round last playoffs and the west got much better in the offseason. Memphis gets the gunslinger back. OKC got iHart and Caruso. Denver got worse? Dallas. Minny. And then wild cards in Lakers Clippers Pelicans GSW Sactown.
I just listed 10 teams in the west and Suns make 11. They got an uphill battle just to keep their health and then owner got half billion dollar budget decisions to make and limited outs beyond the Durant, Beal contract timelines - it’ll be why the FVV team option for 2025-26 as well as some lottery talent or picks starting about 2 years from now will be so enticing.
It’s gonna get wild at trade deadline if Beal has missed at lot of games and Phoenix outside playoffs looking in. Or maybe the owner likes paying money for not much return? I guess with a little baby oil anything is possible with Wormtongue doing the spin cycle in his ear. Ew just ew too soon
martin wrote:
What do you think Leon was paying or overpaying for by trading for above and beyond Mikal’s stats?
control
jaydh wrote:martin wrote:
What do you think Leon was paying or overpaying for by trading for above and beyond Mikal’s stats?control
In a word, yup.
martin wrote:Nalod wrote:HE literally traded for Durant like the day he bought the team.He did, then made trades and is now facing a mountain of salary and luxury tax and Durant is on a very short timeline. Kevin is going to turn 36 at end of Sept and got $51m and $54m left. With Beal mirroring that timeline and salary level.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/tax/_/year/2...
Right now, Suns have $220m in salary and $188m in luxury tax for 2024-25, it goes up to total of $430m next year. They paid $70m luxury for this past season with $190m in salary.
Their one out of being meaningful beyond the 2 year window of Durant and Beal is a short one and they are berefeft of picks cause of the Durant Beal trades.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
There is a new (?) owner in Dallas too and an owner in Houston who is hot and heavy for Durant and who just acquired a bunch of the Phoenix picks, I think.
Suns got swept 4-0 in the first round last playoffs and the west got much better in the offseason. Memphis gets the gunslinger back. OKC got iHart and Caruso. Denver got worse? Dallas. Minny. And then wild cards in Lakers Clippers Pelicans GSW Sactown.
I just listed 10 teams in the west and Suns make 11. They got an uphill battle just to keep their health and then owner got half billion dollar budget decisions to make and limited outs beyond the Durant, Beal contract timelines - it’ll be why the FVV team option for 2025-26 as well as some lottery talent or picks starting about 2 years from now will be so enticing.
It’s gonna get wild at trade deadline if Beal has missed at lot of games and Phoenix outside playoffs looking in. Or maybe the owner likes paying money for not much return? I guess with a little baby oil anything is possible with Wormtongue doing the spin cycle in his ear. Ew just ew too soon
It took Minnesota a year to kind of put it all together, I'm thinking Milwaukee and Phoenix will be much improved. Budenholzer and Rivers have pretty strong records of regular season success and both have won rings. Tyus Jones was a huge addition for Phoenix. Beal is the problem for Phoenix now, but this is a guy who for years topped the toughest cover in the NBA as voted on by the players. I'm guessing he will have a strong bounce back year. Vogel was never known as an offensive coach.
Another team I'd add to the list is the Spurs. CP might top the league in assists by just throwing lob after lob to Wembenyama. After Wembenyama took France down to the final 5 minutes against the US, I don’t see any limit on what that guy can do.
The West is going to be brutal. Maybe okc is the lone lock for the playoffs. I'm happy the Knicks are in the East.
martin wrote:Nalod wrote:HE literally traded for Durant like the day he bought the team.He did, then made trades and is now facing a mountain of salary and luxury tax and Durant is on a very short timeline. Kevin is going to turn 36 at end of Sept and got $51m and $54m left. With Beal mirroring that timeline and salary level.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/tax/_/year/2...
Right now, Suns have $220m in salary and $188m in luxury tax for 2024-25, it goes up to total of $430m next year. They paid $70m luxury for this past season with $190m in salary.
Their one out of being meaningful beyond the 2 year window of Durant and Beal is a short one and they are berefeft of picks cause of the Durant Beal trades.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
There is a new (?) owner in Dallas too and an owner in Houston who is hot and heavy for Durant and who just acquired a bunch of the Phoenix picks, I think.
Suns got swept 4-0 in the first round last playoffs and the west got much better in the offseason. Memphis gets the gunslinger back. OKC got iHart and Caruso. Denver got worse? Dallas. Minny. And then wild cards in Lakers Clippers Pelicans GSW Sactown.
I just listed 10 teams in the west and Suns make 11. They got an uphill battle just to keep their health and then owner got half billion dollar budget decisions to make and limited outs beyond the Durant, Beal contract timelines - it’ll be why the FVV team option for 2025-26 as well as some lottery talent or picks starting about 2 years from now will be so enticing.
It’s gonna get wild at trade deadline if Beal has missed at lot of games and Phoenix outside playoffs looking in. Or maybe the owner likes paying money for not much return? I guess with a little baby oil anything is possible with Wormtongue doing the spin cycle in his ear. Ew just ew too soon
The context of the moment when he took over the team was to get some stars,, get a buzz, and see if he can catch a chip in a two year window with Beal.
He is following the starphuchers manual as written by Isiah Thomas.
Ibisha ready to unravel it? Doubt it.
Beal, Lavine, John Wall, etc.........deals we stopped doing.
But, Durant proved reasonable given his age so not all deals are dumb. Kyrie has been behaving.
While on paper Randle is deserving of a raise perhaps he understood that there is a scenario of misery that comes with those max deals.
James Harden? Kind of self inflicted and injury was not part of it. Ego gets in the way.
Then there is Ben Simmons whose misery is well documented.
Knicks not in this convo! Thank goodness!!!!
Nalod wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:HE literally traded for Durant like the day he bought the team.He did, then made trades and is now facing a mountain of salary and luxury tax and Durant is on a very short timeline. Kevin is going to turn 36 at end of Sept and got $51m and $54m left. With Beal mirroring that timeline and salary level.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/tax/_/year/2...
Right now, Suns have $220m in salary and $188m in luxury tax for 2024-25, it goes up to total of $430m next year. They paid $70m luxury for this past season with $190m in salary.
Their one out of being meaningful beyond the 2 year window of Durant and Beal is a short one and they are berefeft of picks cause of the Durant Beal trades.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
There is a new (?) owner in Dallas too and an owner in Houston who is hot and heavy for Durant and who just acquired a bunch of the Phoenix picks, I think.
Suns got swept 4-0 in the first round last playoffs and the west got much better in the offseason. Memphis gets the gunslinger back. OKC got iHart and Caruso. Denver got worse? Dallas. Minny. And then wild cards in Lakers Clippers Pelicans GSW Sactown.
I just listed 10 teams in the west and Suns make 11. They got an uphill battle just to keep their health and then owner got half billion dollar budget decisions to make and limited outs beyond the Durant, Beal contract timelines - it’ll be why the FVV team option for 2025-26 as well as some lottery talent or picks starting about 2 years from now will be so enticing.
It’s gonna get wild at trade deadline if Beal has missed at lot of games and Phoenix outside playoffs looking in. Or maybe the owner likes paying money for not much return? I guess with a little baby oil anything is possible with Wormtongue doing the spin cycle in his ear. Ew just ew too soon
The context of the moment when he took over the team was to get some stars,, get a buzz, and see if he can catch a chip in a two year window with Beal.
He is following the starphuchers manual as written by Isiah Thomas.Ibisha ready to unravel it? Doubt it.
Beal, Lavine, John Wall, etc.........deals we stopped doing.
But, Durant proved reasonable given his age so not all deals are dumb. Kyrie has been behaving.
While on paper Randle is deserving of a raise perhaps he understood that there is a scenario of misery that comes with those max deals.
James Harden? Kind of self inflicted and injury was not part of it. Ego gets in the way.
Then there is Ben Simmons whose misery is well documented.
Knicks not in this convo! Thank goodness!!!!
It's not unraveling, it's called reality. And then planning and reacting accordingly? It's what those types do to try to not pay ungoldy amounts of luxury tax if things go sideways?
Why can't we just project 2 years out when Beal resigning decision will need to be made and Durant will be 38? What's the overwhelming sentiment... that Phoenix is finals bound within next 2 years? Someone get behind that statement cause I feel it's the only reasonable expectation for someone like Ibisha.
Here are the top players for Suns and how many games they've averaged over past 4 years. The main guys are all OG Anunoby level injury-wise? Close?
They have swapped Eric Bledsoe for Tyus Jones. They have added Ryan Dunn and some scraps. It's the same team that won 49 games last year to come in tied for 6th with NOP and only 3 wins over 10th place and play-in GSW.
Phoenix was relatively healthy last year. They don't have much wiggle room and lots of fault lines in their most important parts.
23/24
--------------------------------------
Durant 75 8 39 47
Beal 53 50 40 60
Booker 68 53 68 67
Nurkic 76 52 56 37
Grayson 75 72 66 50
Royce 79 76 77 71
Okogie 60 72 49 50
Tyus 66 80 73 70
In 2 exact years, Ibisha will have to opt into Beal or let him walk or resign him to much lower. And within the next year he will have to extend 37yo Durant or have him in a walk year for nothing on a team that can barely make it out of first round?
How does one upgrade a second apron team with no draft picks to exchange, Beal having a NTC, and Booker being your one young stud your franchise can long term build around?
Ibisha can ride out 2 years with Durant/Beal/Booker and do relatively little. And then 38yo Durant will demand stuff, Beal will too, and they will have not much future or future picks.
NOTE: In the last 7 years, Durant has missed pretty much 2 seasons, played 75 last year and here was his totals in the prior six years: 8, 38, 47, 55, 35, 0.
Does Ibisha know how to sell high or should he hold that DJT stock for a couple of months longer?
I think there is a major decision regarding a tipping point that will happen for Suns towards this trade Feb deadline. Not hard to predict. It'll be the only time Ibisha has leverage, then it mostly goes away.
gradyandrew wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:HE literally traded for Durant like the day he bought the team.He did, then made trades and is now facing a mountain of salary and luxury tax and Durant is on a very short timeline. Kevin is going to turn 36 at end of Sept and got $51m and $54m left. With Beal mirroring that timeline and salary level.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/tax/_/year/2...
Right now, Suns have $220m in salary and $188m in luxury tax for 2024-25, it goes up to total of $430m next year. They paid $70m luxury for this past season with $190m in salary.
Their one out of being meaningful beyond the 2 year window of Durant and Beal is a short one and they are berefeft of picks cause of the Durant Beal trades.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
There is a new (?) owner in Dallas too and an owner in Houston who is hot and heavy for Durant and who just acquired a bunch of the Phoenix picks, I think.
Suns got swept 4-0 in the first round last playoffs and the west got much better in the offseason. Memphis gets the gunslinger back. OKC got iHart and Caruso. Denver got worse? Dallas. Minny. And then wild cards in Lakers Clippers Pelicans GSW Sactown.
I just listed 10 teams in the west and Suns make 11. They got an uphill battle just to keep their health and then owner got half billion dollar budget decisions to make and limited outs beyond the Durant, Beal contract timelines - it’ll be why the FVV team option for 2025-26 as well as some lottery talent or picks starting about 2 years from now will be so enticing.
It’s gonna get wild at trade deadline if Beal has missed at lot of games and Phoenix outside playoffs looking in. Or maybe the owner likes paying money for not much return? I guess with a little baby oil anything is possible with Wormtongue doing the spin cycle in his ear. Ew just ew too soon
It took Minnesota a year to kind of put it all together, I'm thinking Milwaukee and Phoenix will be much improved. Budenholzer and Rivers have pretty strong records of regular season success and both have won rings. Tyus Jones was a huge addition for Phoenix. Beal is the problem for Phoenix now, but this is a guy who for years topped the toughest cover in the NBA as voted on by the players. I'm guessing he will have a strong bounce back year. Vogel was never known as an offensive coach.
Another team I'd add to the list is the Spurs. CP might top the league in assists by just throwing lob after lob to Wembenyama. After Wembenyama took France down to the final 5 minutes against the US, I don’t see any limit on what that guy can do.
The West is going to be brutal. Maybe okc is the lone lock for the playoffs. I'm happy the Knicks are in the East.
Milwaukee and Phoenix are in the same forward looking space. They have a small window before they need to make a lot of hard decisions.
martin wrote:Nalod wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:HE literally traded for Durant like the day he bought the team.He did, then made trades and is now facing a mountain of salary and luxury tax and Durant is on a very short timeline. Kevin is going to turn 36 at end of Sept and got $51m and $54m left. With Beal mirroring that timeline and salary level.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/tax/_/year/2...
Right now, Suns have $220m in salary and $188m in luxury tax for 2024-25, it goes up to total of $430m next year. They paid $70m luxury for this past season with $190m in salary.
Their one out of being meaningful beyond the 2 year window of Durant and Beal is a short one and they are berefeft of picks cause of the Durant Beal trades.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
There is a new (?) owner in Dallas too and an owner in Houston who is hot and heavy for Durant and who just acquired a bunch of the Phoenix picks, I think.
Suns got swept 4-0 in the first round last playoffs and the west got much better in the offseason. Memphis gets the gunslinger back. OKC got iHart and Caruso. Denver got worse? Dallas. Minny. And then wild cards in Lakers Clippers Pelicans GSW Sactown.
I just listed 10 teams in the west and Suns make 11. They got an uphill battle just to keep their health and then owner got half billion dollar budget decisions to make and limited outs beyond the Durant, Beal contract timelines - it’ll be why the FVV team option for 2025-26 as well as some lottery talent or picks starting about 2 years from now will be so enticing.
It’s gonna get wild at trade deadline if Beal has missed at lot of games and Phoenix outside playoffs looking in. Or maybe the owner likes paying money for not much return? I guess with a little baby oil anything is possible with Wormtongue doing the spin cycle in his ear. Ew just ew too soon
The context of the moment when he took over the team was to get some stars,, get a buzz, and see if he can catch a chip in a two year window with Beal.
He is following the starphuchers manual as written by Isiah Thomas.Ibisha ready to unravel it? Doubt it.
Beal, Lavine, John Wall, etc.........deals we stopped doing.
But, Durant proved reasonable given his age so not all deals are dumb. Kyrie has been behaving.
While on paper Randle is deserving of a raise perhaps he understood that there is a scenario of misery that comes with those max deals.
James Harden? Kind of self inflicted and injury was not part of it. Ego gets in the way.
Then there is Ben Simmons whose misery is well documented.
Knicks not in this convo! Thank goodness!!!!It's not unraveling, it's called reality. And then planning and reacting accordingly? It's what those types do to try to not pay ungoldy amounts of luxury tax if things go sideways?
Why can't we just project 2 years out when Beal resigning decision will need to be made and Durant will be 38? What's the overwhelming sentiment... that Phoenix is finals bound within next 2 years? Someone get behind that statement cause I feel it's the only reasonable expectation for someone like Ibisha.
Here are the top players for Suns and how many games they've averaged over past 4 years. The main guys are all OG Anunoby level injury-wise? Close?
They have swapped Eric Bledsoe for Tyus Jones. They have added Ryan Dunn and some scraps. It's the same team that won 49 games last year to come in tied for 6th with NOP and only 3 wins over 10th place and play-in GSW.
Phoenix was relatively healthy last year. They don't have much wiggle room and lots of fault lines in their most important parts.
23/24
--------------------------------------
Durant 75 8 39 47
Beal 53 50 40 60
Booker 68 53 68 67
Nurkic 76 52 56 37
Grayson 75 72 66 50
Royce 79 76 77 71
Okogie 60 72 49 50
Tyus 66 80 73 70In 2 exact years, Ibisha will have to opt into Beal or let him walk or resign him to much lower. And within the next year he will have to extend 37yo Durant or have him in a walk year for nothing on a team that can barely make it out of first round?
How does one upgrade a second apron team with no draft picks to exchange, Beal having a NTC, and Booker being your one young stud your franchise can long term build around?
Ibisha can ride out 2 years with Durant/Beal/Booker and do relatively little. And then 38yo Durant will demand stuff, Beal will too, and they will have not much future or future picks.
NOTE: In the last 7 years, Durant has missed pretty much 2 seasons, played 75 last year and here was his totals in the prior six years: 8, 38, 47, 55, 35, 0.
Does Ibisha know how to sell high or should he hold that DJT stock for a couple of months longer?
I think there is a major decision regarding a tipping point that will happen for Suns towards this trade Feb deadline. Not hard to predict. It'll be the only time Ibisha has leverage, then it mostly goes away.
After two decades except for a few nice moments Im glad to not have to invest emotions to the plight that is PHX. Ibisha might have some goals to renovate the arena and make some real estate coin and needs a relevant team to get things done.
That was Nets. Dallas in this game. Renovations are due and the casinos are gonna be built.
Vegas will get his franchise soon and eventually the Sovereign oil moment will come in and bid the prices up stupid. Perhaps thats how Europe gets its franchises into NBA.
jaydh wrote:martin wrote:
What do you think Leon was paying or overpaying for by trading for above and beyond Mikal’s stats?control
Personally, I'm more ok with the "overpay" for Mikal than I am about the contract given to OG. I've said it before, but I think its a) disrespectful to the other players JB, JR, Hart that took less to be a part of this team, and b) has a high probability of becoming an albatross contract with OG on the DL.
I hope I'm wrong and they win a chip with him. But this team had an Ubuntu vibe going on, and that contract just sits in the craw of that.
Panos wrote:jaydh wrote:martin wrote:
What do you think Leon was paying or overpaying for by trading for above and beyond Mikal’s stats?control
Personally, I'm more ok with the "overpay" for Mikal than I am about the contract given to OG. I've said it before, but I think its a) disrespectful to the other players JB, JR, Hart that took less to be a part of this team, and b) has a high probability of becoming an albatross contract with OG on the DL.
I hope I'm wrong and they win a chip with him. But this team had an Ubuntu vibe going on, and that contract just sits in the craw of that.
I thought he would get $35m and there was a chance he would opt in and average out across the seasons. That said, I don’t think $37m is outrageous or disrespectful. At $37m, I don’t mind having him continue doing exactly what he did she. He got here, which is outscore the opponent.
If you really look at the numbers, whether it was $30 or $37 changed nothing this offseason. They couldn’t use that excess on iHart or anyone else. Moving forward, yeah, it might aggregate to approach that second apron. The Knicks will be dancing around it.
But I’d rather have OG at $37m than have him leave for nothing.
The thing about OG that surprised me was how much better he is on offense than I thought. When he came over I thought he primarily was a 3 point shooter but he's got a lot more moves than that. Especially in his last game, he was electric- scoring at the rim and in the mid range. He's definitely good enough to carry the offense for stretches. To have a guy like that as well as his defense, makes me think that his contract will end up as a good deal.