Knicks · What's the new 9 man rotation ? (page 2)

Mitch you need to improve your FTs or you’re riding pine

Chandler wrote:It’s not who starts but who finishes. KAT at 5 in close game is a huge upgrade over Mitch and his FTs

Mitch you need to improve your FTs or you’re riding pine

That's what she said! It's not even 10am and the coffee hasn't fully kicked in but I got all the middle school jokes ready

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Blkexec may have a heart attack but …..
Do you start Deuce or Hart?

Also think Kolek seems like a perfect backup PG

My opinion on Kolek is that he has HUGE upside. Like Steve Nash level upside. But that he will take time to adjust to the NBA. Won’t look too much into summer league but his +/- were pretty horrific. Want to see him adjusting to the speed of the NBA and staying in front of his man on defense. I think that Austin Rivers is to IQ what Cam Payne is to Kolek. Gotta earn those minutes first.

I think Deuce is wasted in the first unit. Hart is a perfect fit if you want to put another SG there. They might. But my preference is to run Bridges and OG at SG and SF, respectively to put pressure on teams that lack positional size. Until they find a fifth starter with positional size that can shoot, I think you see one of Hart, Achiuwa or Robinson in the starting lineup. A second unit with all three of those is flaccid.

Hart is my best guess (not necessarily my best choice) because he replaces a tremendous amount of what Randle brought. Playoff Hart got hot and shot 40+ percent from three. Streaky shooter. Not predicting that by any means. But the Randle/Dray comparisons I use can apply to Hart. And he will naturally run in a motion offense aka Wildcat.

So I think Deuce is your 6MOY attempt.

Like a champagne supernova in the sky, I'd like to join you for that ride.

I'm with you.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Blkexec may have a heart attack but …..
Do you start Deuce or Hart?

Also think Kolek seems like a perfect backup PG

My opinion on Kolek is that he has HUGE upside. Like Steve Nash level upside. But that he will take time to adjust to the NBA. Won’t look too much into summer league but his +/- were pretty horrific. Want to see him adjusting to the speed of the NBA and staying in front of his man on defense. I think that Austin Rivers is to IQ what Cam Payne is to Kolek. Gotta earn those minutes first.

I think Deuce is wasted in the first unit. Hart is a perfect fit if you want to put another SG there. They might. But my preference is to run Bridges and OG at SG and SF, respectively to put pressure on teams that lack positional size. Until they find a fifth starter with positional size that can shoot, I think you see one of Hart, Achiuwa or Robinson in the starting lineup. A second unit with all three of those is flaccid.

Hart is my best guess (not necessarily my best choice) because he replaces a tremendous amount of what Randle brought. Playoff Hart got hot and shot 40+ percent from three. Streaky shooter. Not predicting that by any means. But the Randle/Dray comparisons I use can apply to Hart. And he will naturally run in a motion offense aka Wildcat.

So I think Deuce is your 6MOY attempt.

Like a champagne supernova in the sky, I'd like to join you for that ride.

I'm with you.

Yeah... We definitely know where Martin was when he was getting high.

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:This is approaching my perfect starting lineup. Not just like for the Knicks. Like best possible combination. JJJ (hammy) would be pretty much a perfect lineup. I don’t think that’s plausible at this point. But we can work with what we have. Dadiet is really intriguing cause I could see him slotting at SF for now, but if he keeps growing and adds muscle, he might make a good stretch 4. As it is, I’d expect him to run with the second unit. I would need to see real development from Achiuwa to leave him at PF, but it’s possible. I think they actually run Hart instead of Achiuwa, but I like the idea of a developed Achiuwa better.

Brunson / Payne
Bridges / Deuce
OG / Hart
Achiuwa / Dadiet
KAT / Robinson

My shortlist of trade targets include:

1) Herb Jones or Trey Murphy (3&Ds)
2) Tari Eason (hustle leader and potential 6MoY)
3) Trey Lyles (stretch 4)
4) Walker Kessler (Robinson but younger)
5) Always watching for JJJ. (DPOY from PF slot with positional size)

There are others, but this roster is pretty damn good looking.

Like the idea of an athletic PF that can also cover bigger PFs.
Really starting to believe that when they leak out rumors, they will come true.
So feel that Mitch is gone.

Now that they solved Duane Washington and Partizan, my percentage chance of trading Mitch now has decreased. Knicks can go back to a position of strength. Money is tight, but they can wait it out a bit. Until that Partizan buyout, they were risking a deal falling a part without moving another player.

He may be gone. But there is no gun to their heads.

I'd like to understand why you think that. You may be right, I just don't understand the perspective. Or maybe it's just the way you phrased it. IMHO Knicks don't necessarily have a gun to their head but the urgency is still there.

Context: Knicks are going for a championship. Home court for each series matters. Mitch will miss all of training camp, all of preseason, all of Oct Nov Dec games (small assumption there for the Dec/Jan games). There are 30 regular season games in calendar year 2024, let us make the assumption that Mitch is back in Jan. I don't think it's out of norm to say he will take 1-2 months to ramp up to full Mitch. All star break is mid Feb and will account for 50 games of the season. For upwards of 50 or more games this year, the Knicks will not be able to count on Mitch. This assumes Mitch comes back full and doesn't have a setback.

Would you rather have a player that is targeted for this team NOW or wade through the likely possibilities with Mitch? And then do that every year?

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Blkexec may have a heart attack but …..
Do you start Deuce or Hart?

Also think Kolek seems like a perfect backup PG

My opinion on Kolek is that he has HUGE upside. Like Steve Nash level upside. But that he will take time to adjust to the NBA. Won’t look too much into summer league but his +/- were pretty horrific. Want to see him adjusting to the speed of the NBA and staying in front of his man on defense. I think that Austin Rivers is to IQ what Cam Payne is to Kolek. Gotta earn those minutes first.

I think Deuce is wasted in the first unit. Hart is a perfect fit if you want to put another SG there. They might. But my preference is to run Bridges and OG at SG and SF, respectively to put pressure on teams that lack positional size. Until they find a fifth starter with positional size that can shoot, I think you see one of Hart, Achiuwa or Robinson in the starting lineup. A second unit with all three of those is flaccid.

Hart is my best guess (not necessarily my best choice) because he replaces a tremendous amount of what Randle brought. Playoff Hart got hot and shot 40+ percent from three. Streaky shooter. Not predicting that by any means. But the Randle/Dray comparisons I use can apply to Hart. And he will naturally run in a motion offense aka Wildcat.

So I think Deuce is your 6MOY attempt.

Like a champagne supernova in the sky, I'd like to join you for that ride.

I'm with you.

Yeah... We definitely know where Martin was when he was getting high.

Was?

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Blkexec may have a heart attack but …..
Do you start Deuce or Hart?

Also think Kolek seems like a perfect backup PG

My opinion on Kolek is that he has HUGE upside. Like Steve Nash level upside. But that he will take time to adjust to the NBA. Won’t look too much into summer league but his +/- were pretty horrific. Want to see him adjusting to the speed of the NBA and staying in front of his man on defense. I think that Austin Rivers is to IQ what Cam Payne is to Kolek. Gotta earn those minutes first.

I think Deuce is wasted in the first unit. Hart is a perfect fit if you want to put another SG there. They might. But my preference is to run Bridges and OG at SG and SF, respectively to put pressure on teams that lack positional size. Until they find a fifth starter with positional size that can shoot, I think you see one of Hart, Achiuwa or Robinson in the starting lineup. A second unit with all three of those is flaccid.

Hart is my best guess (not necessarily my best choice) because he replaces a tremendous amount of what Randle brought. Playoff Hart got hot and shot 40+ percent from three. Streaky shooter. Not predicting that by any means. But the Randle/Dray comparisons I use can apply to Hart. And he will naturally run in a motion offense aka Wildcat.

So I think Deuce is your 6MOY attempt.

Like a champagne supernova in the sky, I'd like to join you for that ride.

I'm with you.

I mean, Nash is a NYer now, right. Might be worth getting him some facetime.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:This is approaching my perfect starting lineup. Not just like for the Knicks. Like best possible combination. JJJ (hammy) would be pretty much a perfect lineup. I don’t think that’s plausible at this point. But we can work with what we have. Dadiet is really intriguing cause I could see him slotting at SF for now, but if he keeps growing and adds muscle, he might make a good stretch 4. As it is, I’d expect him to run with the second unit. I would need to see real development from Achiuwa to leave him at PF, but it’s possible. I think they actually run Hart instead of Achiuwa, but I like the idea of a developed Achiuwa better.

Brunson / Payne
Bridges / Deuce
OG / Hart
Achiuwa / Dadiet
KAT / Robinson

My shortlist of trade targets include:

1) Herb Jones or Trey Murphy (3&Ds)
2) Tari Eason (hustle leader and potential 6MoY)
3) Trey Lyles (stretch 4)
4) Walker Kessler (Robinson but younger)
5) Always watching for JJJ. (DPOY from PF slot with positional size)

There are others, but this roster is pretty damn good looking.

Like the idea of an athletic PF that can also cover bigger PFs.
Really starting to believe that when they leak out rumors, they will come true.
So feel that Mitch is gone.

Now that they solved Duane Washington and Partizan, my percentage chance of trading Mitch now has decreased. Knicks can go back to a position of strength. Money is tight, but they can wait it out a bit. Until that Partizan buyout, they were risking a deal falling a part without moving another player.

He may be gone. But there is no gun to their heads.

I'd like to understand why you think that. You may be right, I just don't understand the perspective. Or maybe it's just the way you phrased it. IMHO Knicks don't necessarily have a gun to their head but the urgency is still there.

Context: Knicks are going for a championship. Home court for each series matters. Mitch will miss all of training camp, all of preseason, all of Oct Nov Dec games (small assumption there for the Dec/Jan games). There are 30 regular season games in calendar year 2024, let us make the assumption that Mitch is back in Jan. I don't think it's out of norm to say he will take 1-2 months to ramp up to full Mitch. All star break is mid Feb and will account for 50 games of the season. For upwards of 50 or more games this year, the Knicks will not be able to count on Mitch. This assumes Mitch comes back full and doesn't have a setback.

Would you rather have a player that is targeted for this team NOW or wade through the likely possibilities with Mitch? And then do that every year?

Still math. They needed cooperation of Partizan to make this deal work. Economics favored that occurring, but it wasn't within their control. If they got denied, for any reason, they would be forced to make a veteran player trade to finish this deal. So, it likelihood of trades, once Partizan cooperates, the percentage goes down.

Now, if they want any flexibility moving forward, they still need to make a move. They need to sign a 2nd round pick, a UDFA or convert a two way contract. Must to fill the roster minimum. But they CAN do that without trading a vet.

Until December 15, Robinson is the most likely candidate for a trade. On December 15, that shifts to Achiuwa.

So, if there is a trade before 12/15, its probably Robinson. If the right trade is there (I see you Herb Jones and Jeremiah Earl-Robinson), then it may make sense to pull the trigger. But they can sit out training camp, see who gets cut (Indiana will be cutting a big), and work the roster moves around that.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:This is approaching my perfect starting lineup. Not just like for the Knicks. Like best possible combination. JJJ (hammy) would be pretty much a perfect lineup. I don’t think that’s plausible at this point. But we can work with what we have. Dadiet is really intriguing cause I could see him slotting at SF for now, but if he keeps growing and adds muscle, he might make a good stretch 4. As it is, I’d expect him to run with the second unit. I would need to see real development from Achiuwa to leave him at PF, but it’s possible. I think they actually run Hart instead of Achiuwa, but I like the idea of a developed Achiuwa better.

Brunson / Payne
Bridges / Deuce
OG / Hart
Achiuwa / Dadiet
KAT / Robinson

My shortlist of trade targets include:

1) Herb Jones or Trey Murphy (3&Ds)
2) Tari Eason (hustle leader and potential 6MoY)
3) Trey Lyles (stretch 4)
4) Walker Kessler (Robinson but younger)
5) Always watching for JJJ. (DPOY from PF slot with positional size)

There are others, but this roster is pretty damn good looking.

Like the idea of an athletic PF that can also cover bigger PFs.
Really starting to believe that when they leak out rumors, they will come true.
So feel that Mitch is gone.

Now that they solved Duane Washington and Partizan, my percentage chance of trading Mitch now has decreased. Knicks can go back to a position of strength. Money is tight, but they can wait it out a bit. Until that Partizan buyout, they were risking a deal falling a part without moving another player.

He may be gone. But there is no gun to their heads.

I'd like to understand why you think that. You may be right, I just don't understand the perspective. Or maybe it's just the way you phrased it. IMHO Knicks don't necessarily have a gun to their head but the urgency is still there.

Context: Knicks are going for a championship. Home court for each series matters. Mitch will miss all of training camp, all of preseason, all of Oct Nov Dec games (small assumption there for the Dec/Jan games). There are 30 regular season games in calendar year 2024, let us make the assumption that Mitch is back in Jan. I don't think it's out of norm to say he will take 1-2 months to ramp up to full Mitch. All star break is mid Feb and will account for 50 games of the season. For upwards of 50 or more games this year, the Knicks will not be able to count on Mitch. This assumes Mitch comes back full and doesn't have a setback.

Would you rather have a player that is targeted for this team NOW or wade through the likely possibilities with Mitch? And then do that every year?

To address your commentary - Mitch's value should be higher on 12/15 as he recovers. Trade market should be deeper on 12/15 as recent signings become tradeable. It becomes easier to deal in December.

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:This is approaching my perfect starting lineup. Not just like for the Knicks. Like best possible combination. JJJ (hammy) would be pretty much a perfect lineup. I don’t think that’s plausible at this point. But we can work with what we have. Dadiet is really intriguing cause I could see him slotting at SF for now, but if he keeps growing and adds muscle, he might make a good stretch 4. As it is, I’d expect him to run with the second unit. I would need to see real development from Achiuwa to leave him at PF, but it’s possible. I think they actually run Hart instead of Achiuwa, but I like the idea of a developed Achiuwa better.

Brunson / Payne
Bridges / Deuce
OG / Hart
Achiuwa / Dadiet
KAT / Robinson

My shortlist of trade targets include:

1) Herb Jones or Trey Murphy (3&Ds)
2) Tari Eason (hustle leader and potential 6MoY)
3) Trey Lyles (stretch 4)
4) Walker Kessler (Robinson but younger)
5) Always watching for JJJ. (DPOY from PF slot with positional size)

There are others, but this roster is pretty damn good looking.

Like the idea of an athletic PF that can also cover bigger PFs.
Really starting to believe that when they leak out rumors, they will come true.
So feel that Mitch is gone.

Now that they solved Duane Washington and Partizan, my percentage chance of trading Mitch now has decreased. Knicks can go back to a position of strength. Money is tight, but they can wait it out a bit. Until that Partizan buyout, they were risking a deal falling a part without moving another player.

He may be gone. But there is no gun to their heads.

I'd like to understand why you think that. You may be right, I just don't understand the perspective. Or maybe it's just the way you phrased it. IMHO Knicks don't necessarily have a gun to their head but the urgency is still there.

Context: Knicks are going for a championship. Home court for each series matters. Mitch will miss all of training camp, all of preseason, all of Oct Nov Dec games (small assumption there for the Dec/Jan games). There are 30 regular season games in calendar year 2024, let us make the assumption that Mitch is back in Jan. I don't think it's out of norm to say he will take 1-2 months to ramp up to full Mitch. All star break is mid Feb and will account for 50 games of the season. For upwards of 50 or more games this year, the Knicks will not be able to count on Mitch. This assumes Mitch comes back full and doesn't have a setback.

Would you rather have a player that is targeted for this team NOW or wade through the likely possibilities with Mitch? And then do that every year?

Still math. They needed cooperation of Partizan to make this deal work. Economics favored that occurring, but it wasn't within their control. If they got denied, for any reason, they would be forced to make a veteran player trade to finish this deal. So, it likelihood of trades, once Partizan cooperates, the percentage goes down.

Now, if they want any flexibility moving forward, they still need to make a move. They need to sign a 2nd round pick, a UDFA or convert a two way contract. Must to fill the roster minimum. But they CAN do that without trading a vet.

Until December 15, Robinson is the most likely candidate for a trade. On December 15, that shifts to Achiuwa.

So, if there is a trade before 12/15, its probably Robinson. If the right trade is there (I see you Herb Jones and Jeremiah Earl-Robinson), then it may make sense to pull the trigger. But they can sit out training camp, see who gets cut (Indiana will be cutting a big), and work the roster moves around that.

100%

It was math with the OG trade, the Mikal trade, and the KAT trade too, more difficult as time moved forward but still math and difficult math. And before the math, it was the Toronto will never deal with NY or there is no way Brooklyn will trade with NY. Those hurdles are for other people and have proven surmountable to us.

Knicks got the biggest nerd in all of nerd-land doing his nerdiest. I am not worried about the math if you don't want to be either, there are other people that can make that magic happen.

Now, if you take the Math away, what is your thought process? Now the question hovers around the roster makeup instead of the math and that's what I am more interested in asking about.

The Mitch situation has not changed from last month to this past week or yesterday or today and yet the Knicks are STILL shopping him. That leads me to believe something else.

EDIT Caveat: Of course a healthy Mitch is a more valuable tradable Mitch. I am not sure that changes the dynamic of trading Mitch, perhaps just the timing?

If you have 2 teams that want Mitch, that's all that is needed to create a market and a different timeline IMHO

Also wondering if maybe there were some specific motivations in the Payne/Shamet adds (to allow them time to play with Bridges - per Suns days).

If we went Brunson/Deuce/Bridges/OG/Towns —- that gives us 3 outstanding shooters/defenders playing off Brunson/Towns (at least to start games).

Bench 4 could be Payne/Shamet/Hart/Precious with both Bridges/OG sharing time with the 4 main bench guys. A key would be allowing Payne/Shamet/Bridges playing together with Hart/Precious filling the gaps.

Hart still gets targeted minutes but his marginal shooting doesn’t impact starting unit space.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:This is approaching my perfect starting lineup. Not just like for the Knicks. Like best possible combination. JJJ (hammy) would be pretty much a perfect lineup. I don’t think that’s plausible at this point. But we can work with what we have. Dadiet is really intriguing cause I could see him slotting at SF for now, but if he keeps growing and adds muscle, he might make a good stretch 4. As it is, I’d expect him to run with the second unit. I would need to see real development from Achiuwa to leave him at PF, but it’s possible. I think they actually run Hart instead of Achiuwa, but I like the idea of a developed Achiuwa better.

Brunson / Payne
Bridges / Deuce
OG / Hart
Achiuwa / Dadiet
KAT / Robinson

My shortlist of trade targets include:

1) Herb Jones or Trey Murphy (3&Ds)
2) Tari Eason (hustle leader and potential 6MoY)
3) Trey Lyles (stretch 4)
4) Walker Kessler (Robinson but younger)
5) Always watching for JJJ. (DPOY from PF slot with positional size)

There are others, but this roster is pretty damn good looking.

Like the idea of an athletic PF that can also cover bigger PFs.
Really starting to believe that when they leak out rumors, they will come true.
So feel that Mitch is gone.

Now that they solved Duane Washington and Partizan, my percentage chance of trading Mitch now has decreased. Knicks can go back to a position of strength. Money is tight, but they can wait it out a bit. Until that Partizan buyout, they were risking a deal falling a part without moving another player.

He may be gone. But there is no gun to their heads.

I'd like to understand why you think that. You may be right, I just don't understand the perspective. Or maybe it's just the way you phrased it. IMHO Knicks don't necessarily have a gun to their head but the urgency is still there.

Context: Knicks are going for a championship. Home court for each series matters. Mitch will miss all of training camp, all of preseason, all of Oct Nov Dec games (small assumption there for the Dec/Jan games). There are 30 regular season games in calendar year 2024, let us make the assumption that Mitch is back in Jan. I don't think it's out of norm to say he will take 1-2 months to ramp up to full Mitch. All star break is mid Feb and will account for 50 games of the season. For upwards of 50 or more games this year, the Knicks will not be able to count on Mitch. This assumes Mitch comes back full and doesn't have a setback.

Would you rather have a player that is targeted for this team NOW or wade through the likely possibilities with Mitch? And then do that every year?

Still math. They needed cooperation of Partizan to make this deal work. Economics favored that occurring, but it wasn't within their control. If they got denied, for any reason, they would be forced to make a veteran player trade to finish this deal. So, it likelihood of trades, once Partizan cooperates, the percentage goes down.

Now, if they want any flexibility moving forward, they still need to make a move. They need to sign a 2nd round pick, a UDFA or convert a two way contract. Must to fill the roster minimum. But they CAN do that without trading a vet.

Until December 15, Robinson is the most likely candidate for a trade. On December 15, that shifts to Achiuwa.

So, if there is a trade before 12/15, its probably Robinson. If the right trade is there (I see you Herb Jones and Jeremiah Earl-Robinson), then it may make sense to pull the trigger. But they can sit out training camp, see who gets cut (Indiana will be cutting a big), and work the roster moves around that.

100%

It was math with the OG trade, the Mikal trade, and the KAT trade too, more difficult as time moved forward but still math and difficult math. And before the math, it was the Toronto will never deal with NY or there is no way Brooklyn will trade with NY. Those hurdles are for other people and have proven surmountable to us.

Knicks got the biggest nerd in all of nerd-land doing his nerdiest. I am not worried about the math if you don't want to be either, there are other people that can make that magic happen.

Now, if you take the Math away, what is your thought process? Now the question hovers around the roster makeup instead of the math and that's what I am more interested in asking about.

The Mitch situation has not changed from last month to this past week or yesterday or today and yet the Knicks are STILL shopping him. That leads me to believe something else.

I am not ready to commit to them being ready to move on from Mitch without salary requirements.

He has done everything they have asked. Reduced his fouls. Put on weight. Boxed out. He put the team in front of his money. He took to a depreciating contract. He is an offensive rebounding force and it is clear that his defensive rebounding numbers are skewed lower because he boxes out for the team rebound. His offensive rebounding boosts the Knicks Points Per Possession by extending possessions. His box outs lower the opposing teams points per possessions by ending opponent's possessions at the miss. He can't shoot a lick, but he doesn't take shots.

Are there better centers? Sure. Are there healthier guys? Yeah. Would it surprise me if they did make a move? No. But they are no longer mathematically required to make a move. His biggest issue is that his shooting and FT% make him unavailable at the end of the game.

I'm not gonna beat on a guy that puts his body on the line for the Knicks every time. I want him to be healthy. If they have to make a move to be championship worthy, I get it. If it really makes sense, I get it.

In my head, all those conversations from the start of the Summer were about getting KAT where the Mini-Wolves didn't want to take back Robinson. Get them something better.

If you name a starting caliber PF that is available, healthy and fits this model system, I think the trade could occur. I'd pull the trigger on Herb Jones or Trey Murphy. But who can you get that will help us more against Embiid, Jokic and the star centers that make it to our court? If he is healty, who is better. If he not healthy, who is giving anything up for him? You want a Steve Adams or Timelord swap? Push at best, no?

EwingsGlass wrote:I am not ready to commit to them being ready to move on from Mitch without salary requirements.

He has done everything they have asked. Reduced his fouls. Put on weight. Boxed out. He put the team in front of his money. He took to a depreciating contract. He is an offensive rebounding force and it is clear that his defensive rebounding numbers are skewed lower because he boxes out for the team rebound. His offensive rebounding boosts the Knicks Points Per Possession by extending possessions. His box outs lower the opposing teams points per possessions by ending opponent's possessions at the miss. He can't shoot a lick, but he doesn't take shots.

Are there better centers? Sure. Are there healthier guys? Yeah. Would it surprise me if they did make a move? No. But they are no longer mathematically required to make a move. His biggest issue is that his shooting and FT% make him unavailable at the end of the game.

I'm not gonna beat on a guy that puts his body on the line for the Knicks every time. I want him to be healthy. If they have to make a move to be championship worthy, I get it. If it really makes sense, I get it.

In my head, all those conversations from the start of the Summer were about getting KAT where the Mini-Wolves didn't want to take back Robinson. Get them something better.

If you name a starting caliber PF that is available, healthy and fits this model system, I think the trade could occur. I'd pull the trigger on Herb Jones or Trey Murphy. But who can you get that will help us more against Embiid, Jokic and the star centers that make it to our court? If he is healty, who is better. If he not healthy, who is giving anything up for him? You want a Steve Adams or Timelord swap? Push at best, no?

Regarding the salary requirements: my base assumption is that Mitch, Deuce are the only major assets left that Knicks could move. Obviously any trade would have to fit that sized total(s).

After that, it's if you are comfortable of the idea of starting this season's championship run without Mitch today - ie, without all available pieces in play - or is it better both short and long term to start the championship run with something more fortified and worry about the obvious backup C spot differently.

There is a grand possibility that Mitch don't show up til like late Feb or March. If you can take hindsight into consideration and know that's the deal, do you act differently?

GS did not worry about the C spot or the backup C spot much at all in terms of their main playing style. Does Leon have that same notion?

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I am not ready to commit to them being ready to move on from Mitch without salary requirements.

He has done everything they have asked. Reduced his fouls. Put on weight. Boxed out. He put the team in front of his money. He took to a depreciating contract. He is an offensive rebounding force and it is clear that his defensive rebounding numbers are skewed lower because he boxes out for the team rebound. His offensive rebounding boosts the Knicks Points Per Possession by extending possessions. His box outs lower the opposing teams points per possessions by ending opponent's possessions at the miss. He can't shoot a lick, but he doesn't take shots.

Are there better centers? Sure. Are there healthier guys? Yeah. Would it surprise me if they did make a move? No. But they are no longer mathematically required to make a move. His biggest issue is that his shooting and FT% make him unavailable at the end of the game.

I'm not gonna beat on a guy that puts his body on the line for the Knicks every time. I want him to be healthy. If they have to make a move to be championship worthy, I get it. If it really makes sense, I get it.

In my head, all those conversations from the start of the Summer were about getting KAT where the Mini-Wolves didn't want to take back Robinson. Get them something better.

If you name a starting caliber PF that is available, healthy and fits this model system, I think the trade could occur. I'd pull the trigger on Herb Jones or Trey Murphy. But who can you get that will help us more against Embiid, Jokic and the star centers that make it to our court? If he is healty, who is better. If he not healthy, who is giving anything up for him? You want a Steve Adams or Timelord swap? Push at best, no?

Regarding the salary requirements: my base assumption is that Mitch, Deuce are the only major assets left that Knicks could move. Obviously any trade would have to fit that sized total(s).

After that, it's if you are comfortable of the idea of starting this season's championship run without Mitch today - ie, without all available pieces in play - or is it better both short and long term to start the championship run with something more fortified and worry about the obvious backup C spot differently.

There is a grand possibility that Mitch don't show up til like late Feb or March. If you can take hindsight into consideration and know that's the deal, do you act differently?

GS did not worry about the C spot or the backup C spot much at all in terms of their main playing style. Does Leon have that same notion?

I would agree Deuce and Robinson are the only current trade chips. I might include Hart only because the inclusion of DDV convinced me that no one is untouchable. So, if you told me they just traded Hart and Robinson for JJJ, I wouldn't be surprised.

For me, this is year 1 of a 4 year build. I think when you deplete a roster to starphuch, you might not have enough pieces to finish the same year. Some guys will fill the void from weird places.

I think this team has stuffed its coffers to have players to bring in when they don't have draft picks.

So, to make the push for THIS year, who are you getting that is better than the rest of Mitch's contract? I gave a short list above.

JJJ
H. Jones
T. Murphy
Eason
Kessler
(I will leave off Lyles, that's a style fit not a talent fit for what we have. He's a MLE kind of guy next year).

So, rather than defending my position the same way again and again, what trade would you make with Robinson that makes sense for both teams IF Robinson isn't back until February. And why would they make the deal now?

Don't trust emotions. Leon traded DDV. Jalens Groomsman at this wedding. Don't think he won't trade Josh if he has to. Not sure he has to.
Players are not stock market equities. Price does not fluctuate if a player is doing well at the moment or not if there is a long history. Mitch has foot issues and breaks. No secret. He is a 25million salary player if he did not. But he does. He is paid appropriately. Thus makes him a lower risk as a trade asset.

Nola: They got work to do and I don't think they trade Jones or Murphy until they figure out Ingram. In this world they might just play him and let him walk. There is a team that will sign him at the right price if Ingram is agreeable. Obviously he and Pels are not in agreement. He was benched last year at times. He has a blood disorder and has not played up to this contract. Almost seems a given he goes to Bulls? LOL they do stupid shit. If he goes to Warriors, then we label it "Brilliant"! Fans see shit as they want. Or, He goes to Utah with some nice picks and a root, and UTAH sends them Kessler and lets Ingram walk. Danny building a war chest still?
If teams are calling about Mitch, there is a logic. They can try to steal him or is it take a risk? Maybe a team feels that they let him sit the full year, then extend him or play him once fully healed and see how he does? His X-rays and bone density tells more than what we know.

Expect the unexpected.

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I am not ready to commit to them being ready to move on from Mitch without salary requirements.

He has done everything they have asked. Reduced his fouls. Put on weight. Boxed out. He put the team in front of his money. He took to a depreciating contract. He is an offensive rebounding force and it is clear that his defensive rebounding numbers are skewed lower because he boxes out for the team rebound. His offensive rebounding boosts the Knicks Points Per Possession by extending possessions. His box outs lower the opposing teams points per possessions by ending opponent's possessions at the miss. He can't shoot a lick, but he doesn't take shots.

Are there better centers? Sure. Are there healthier guys? Yeah. Would it surprise me if they did make a move? No. But they are no longer mathematically required to make a move. His biggest issue is that his shooting and FT% make him unavailable at the end of the game.

I'm not gonna beat on a guy that puts his body on the line for the Knicks every time. I want him to be healthy. If they have to make a move to be championship worthy, I get it. If it really makes sense, I get it.

In my head, all those conversations from the start of the Summer were about getting KAT where the Mini-Wolves didn't want to take back Robinson. Get them something better.

If you name a starting caliber PF that is available, healthy and fits this model system, I think the trade could occur. I'd pull the trigger on Herb Jones or Trey Murphy. But who can you get that will help us more against Embiid, Jokic and the star centers that make it to our court? If he is healty, who is better. If he not healthy, who is giving anything up for him? You want a Steve Adams or Timelord swap? Push at best, no?

Regarding the salary requirements: my base assumption is that Mitch, Deuce are the only major assets left that Knicks could move. Obviously any trade would have to fit that sized total(s).

After that, it's if you are comfortable of the idea of starting this season's championship run without Mitch today - ie, without all available pieces in play - or is it better both short and long term to start the championship run with something more fortified and worry about the obvious backup C spot differently.

There is a grand possibility that Mitch don't show up til like late Feb or March. If you can take hindsight into consideration and know that's the deal, do you act differently?

GS did not worry about the C spot or the backup C spot much at all in terms of their main playing style. Does Leon have that same notion?

I would agree Deuce and Robinson are the only current trade chips. I might include Hart only because the inclusion of DDV convinced me that no one is untouchable. So, if you told me they just traded Hart and Robinson for JJJ, I wouldn't be surprised.

For me, this is year 1 of a 4 year build. I think when you deplete a roster to starphuch, you might not have enough pieces to finish the same year. Some guys will fill the void from weird places.

I think this team has stuffed its coffers to have players to bring in when they don't have draft picks.

So, to make the push for THIS year, who are you getting that is better than the rest of Mitch's contract? I gave a short list above.

JJJ
H. Jones
T. Murphy
Eason
Kessler
(I will leave off Lyles, that's a style fit not a talent fit for what we have. He's a MLE kind of guy next year).

So, rather than defending my position the same way again and again, what trade would you make with Robinson that makes sense for both teams IF Robinson isn't back until February. And why would they make the deal now?

I am going to agree with you on everything you are saying. I'd like to help reword the bolded to see if we can look at it differently:

This is year 1 of a 4+ year championship run. I think the Knicks are at a very good starting point to launch that 4 year championship run. When you are in those moments, you think most about who is going to possibly be there for that full run - the core pieces - and make sure you have as many of them as you can NOW (or as close to it and as early as possible) and worry about the lesser important level items down the line some. You still want to compete this year for sure but years 2 to whatever are (a little) more important IF IF IF the opportunity presents itself.

If Mitch was 100%, we may not be having this conversation at all, because he would be a 4 year core piece. The Knicks and especially Thibs LOVE Deuce. He is nearly a core piece, and I only say nearly because of both his output and contract, and the "nearly" part is because his role is duplicative and easily covered (outside of a roster in injury-depleted situations). The PG/SG spot is thrice covered: Brunson, Cam, Kolek, Mikal, Hart, Shamet.

Only because Mitch has injury history AND because of Deuce's positional flexibility coverage would Leon ever consider trading those 2 guys. But also because of those reasons, it's almost like he HAS to because of the 1-4 year window. Leon certainly will not put himself in the position to be OUT of the first year window by depleting his roster, but he would rather favor fortifying for years 2-4 and beyond NOW (or sooner rather than later) rather than suffer from the downside risk of wherever and whenever Mitch will come back. And let's put it out there: there is an IF component to Mitch ever playing healthy again or at expected levels or for games for a season.

There is a super downside of not trading Mitch today if you can possibility get something back in his near trade value range (and yes, I admit that if he is healthy and playing in December these things are greased more easily). There is a distinct possibility Mitch is healthy for like a month and then done. And then what? Wouldn't you have rather traded him today instead of waiting on that injury news? The other side of the trade will have the same questions. For instance, let's take the Lakers. If they think they have a team that can make a finals run with a healthy Mitch at end of the year (they'll do their homework), they will absolutely grab him when they can, because LeBron has short timelines too. The market for Mitch (in this example) will be set by the Lakers and how desperate they are for a C with Beast-like capabilities.

The opposite is also true: Leon trades Mitch today and he goes to NO/Lakers and they have a beast sized Center who decimates the West for years and we don't.

That's Leon's decision point. And he is still shopping Mitch.

My guess at Leon's wish list: Trey and then Herb Jones or similar wing role with upside or a very well known production value. It'll be about what he has to give and how to do the trade. I will add: the backup center vet market for next year is going to be OK. Steven Adams, Brook Lopez, and lots of similar career level experienced guys who may just want a ring. But you do have to wait until the offseason.

Brunson
Bridges
Hart
OG
Kat

I feel like there rest well story itself out. I think that’s the best lineup. And 2-4 is really matchup dependent because there’s a lot of versatility. But on offense I kinda look at it like that

SupremeCommander wrote:I personally want

Brunson
Bridges
Hart
OG
Kat

I feel like there rest well story itself out. I think that's the best lineup. And 2-4 is really matchup dependent because there's a lot of versatility. But on offense I kinda look at it like that

Yup, you have to run with your 5 best players in the SL

EwingsGlass wrote:So, to make the push for THIS year, who are you getting that is better than the rest of Mitch's contract? I gave a short list above.

JJJ
H. Jones?
T. Murphy
Eason
Kessler
(I will leave off Lyles, that's a style fit not a talent fit for what we have. He's a MLE kind of guy next year).

So, rather than defending my position the same way again and again, what trade would you make with Robinson that makes sense for both teams IF Robinson isn't back until February. And why would they make the deal now?

I think Kessler could be had. Utah is in the tank for Cooper stage. The thing is, Utah always seems to outperform expectations. If they're looking in at the play-in, they might be tempted by a Kessler/Mitch swap. Or they might be interested in Deuce and his low salary. I think Easin is obtainable and Mitch would be interesting for Houston. But how does that flow with their reported interest in KD/Booker? I don't think they do Herb for Mitch. That Mitch/Zion fit would be tight and Herb has way more value than Mitch right now. What ore could the Knicks offer to make the deals enticing?

BigDaddyG wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:So, to make the push for THIS year, who are you getting that is better than the rest of Mitch's contract? I gave a short list above.

JJJ
H. Jones?
T. Murphy
Eason
Kessler
(I will leave off Lyles, that's a style fit not a talent fit for what we have. He's a MLE kind of guy next year).

So, rather than defending my position the same way again and again, what trade would you make with Robinson that makes sense for both teams IF Robinson isn't back until February. And why would they make the deal now?

I think Kessler could be had. Utah is in the tank for Cooper stage. The thing is, Utah always seems to outperform expectations. If they're looking in at the play-in, they might be tempted by a Kessler/Mitch swap. Or they might be interested in Deuce and his low salary. I think Easin is obtainable and Mitch would be interesting for Houston. But how does that flow with their reported interest in KD/Booker? I don't think they do Herb for Mitch. That Mitch/Zion fit would be tight and Herb has way more value than Mitch right now. What ore could the Knicks offer to make the deals enticing?

1) Rokas
2) Deuce
3) Wash Pick
4) Seconds
5) 26 & 28 1st round Swaps.
7) Something that tastes like Honey Nut Cheerios.