Knicks · What's the new 9 man rotation ? (page 4)

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:Do not trade this guy!!!

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Put him in the starting line up! I'd like to have some talent in reserve and on the bench.

Go with Brunson and McBride in the back court, and then OG & Bridges up front with Kat.

Josh, Prescious and Payne off the bench.

When starting, Brunson was not. Pick your poison

I don't think Mitch is tradeable until we at least see how we match up with Philly and Cleveland. Despite his limitations, Mitch has always crushed it on offensive rating. Those offensive rebs are extremely valuable, even at the end of games when his free throws have become an issue. Mitch has gotten really good at the Tyson Chandler tap out. Off the ball fouls don't work in the last two minutes, and Mitch has adjusted to take advantage.

Josh has got to start. He's just too valuable for rebounding and initiating the offense. . Seems like he needs to catch the ball in motion to be really effective. Don't let his assist numbers fool you into thinking he's a PG.

Cam Payne averaged 7 assists per game as a spot starter in Phoenix over 15 games. That will be key as Brunson also misses about that many games a year.

I'm going to plant my flag on Sims having a breakout year. He's shown some dribbling and shooting skills before, this is the season where he puts it all together. Be sure I'll remind all of you about this over the season or deny it if it doesn't happen. Oddly, Precious and Sims had a really solid net rating in 240 minutes last season. I'm guessing Thibs rides that until it doesn't work.

Deuce and Shamet will be the bench 2 and 3.

JB/ Payne
Hart/ Deuce
Bridges/ Shamet
OG/ Precious
KAT/ Sims

For the start of the season.

EwingsGlass wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:Do not trade this guy!!!

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Put him in the starting line up! I'd like to have some talent in reserve and on the bench.

Go with Brunson and McBride in the back court, and then OG & Bridges up front with Kat.

Josh, Prescious and Payne off the bench.

When starting, Brunson was not. Pick your poison

An order of the McBrunson sounds nice.

one can argue precious starting is not far fetched. he can play big minutes and do the dirty work needed. OG is not a great rebounder but positioning at the 3 might have to do with that. I like Josh off the bench. Who starts and who finishes is not always the same.
I can also see if Deuce responds he too can start with Precious instead off the bench. Deuce has to hit that long ball three at a good clip. He will have a lot of open looks. We are better with Mikal penetrating. OG will be in the corner or the elbow and also benefit from open looks.
Josh is not a strong passer and we don't know if he fixed his shot in the offseason. It was public he was going to work with JJ Reddick and change his mechanics. Curious to see if he was able to do so (I think JJ got busy in other areas).
Camp and preseason will sort it out as these players have to execute to the level of confidence and earn it. I do think Cam Payne gets the back up role but Kolek will get a chance if he can out play him. Thibian rotations could start Cam if Brunson gets hurt keeping Kolek in the second unit. He used to do that with Hartenstin and start Sims before Isiah really got going last year.

Nalod wrote:one can argue precious starting is not far fetched. he can play big minutes and do the dirty work needed. OG is not a great rebounder but positioning at the 3 might have to do with that. I like Josh off the bench. Who starts and who finishes is not always the same.
I can also see if Deuce responds he too can start with Precious instead off the bench. Deuce has to hit that long ball three at a good clip. He will have a lot of open looks. We are better with Mikal penetrating. OG will be in the corner or the elbow and also benefit from open looks.
Josh is not a strong passer and we don't know if he fixed his shot in the offseason. It was public he was going to work with JJ Reddick and change his mechanics. Curious to see if he was able to do so (I think JJ got busy in other areas).
Camp and preseason will sort it out as these players have to execute to the level of confidence and earn it. I do think Cam Payne gets the back up role but Kolek will get a chance if he can out play him. Thibian rotations could start Cam if Brunson gets hurt keeping Kolek in the second unit. He used to do that with Hartenstin and start Sims before Isiah really got going last year.

I agree 100% that Precious will be starting. Thibs gonna want some beef up front.

Nalod wrote:one can argue precious starting is not far fetched. he can play big minutes and do the dirty work needed. OG is not a great rebounder but positioning at the 3 might have to do with that. I like Josh off the bench. Who starts and who finishes is not always the same.
I can also see if Deuce responds he too can start with Precious instead off the bench. Deuce has to hit that long ball three at a good clip. He will have a lot of open looks. We are better with Mikal penetrating. OG will be in the corner or the elbow and also benefit from open looks.
Josh is not a strong passer and we don't know if he fixed his shot in the offseason. It was public he was going to work with JJ Reddick and change his mechanics. Curious to see if he was able to do so (I think JJ got busy in other areas).
Camp and preseason will sort it out as these players have to execute to the level of confidence and earn it. I do think Cam Payne gets the back up role but Kolek will get a chance if he can out play him. Thibian rotations could start Cam if Brunson gets hurt keeping Kolek in the second unit. He used to do that with Hartenstin and start Sims before Isiah really got going last year.

I like Precious starting too for the very reasons you suggest. And then it allows Mikal and OG to do their weak side help things which is a forte for both.

I am going to quibble with the bolded regarding Josh. He is a VERY good passer in the mold of Randle. He wants to catch, get downhill, and finish or pass. And he is very very good at both when he gets downhill. Better than Randle in fact (hint less assists but a lot less turnovers) and just as good or better finisher at the rim than Randle.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:one can argue precious starting is not far fetched. he can play big minutes and do the dirty work needed. OG is not a great rebounder but positioning at the 3 might have to do with that. I like Josh off the bench. Who starts and who finishes is not always the same.
I can also see if Deuce responds he too can start with Precious instead off the bench. Deuce has to hit that long ball three at a good clip. He will have a lot of open looks. We are better with Mikal penetrating. OG will be in the corner or the elbow and also benefit from open looks.
Josh is not a strong passer and we don't know if he fixed his shot in the offseason. It was public he was going to work with JJ Reddick and change his mechanics. Curious to see if he was able to do so (I think JJ got busy in other areas).
Camp and preseason will sort it out as these players have to execute to the level of confidence and earn it. I do think Cam Payne gets the back up role but Kolek will get a chance if he can out play him. Thibian rotations could start Cam if Brunson gets hurt keeping Kolek in the second unit. He used to do that with Hartenstin and start Sims before Isiah really got going last year.

I like Precious starting too for the very reasons you suggest. And then it allows Mikal and OG to do their weak side help things which is a forte for both.

I am going to quibble with the bolded regarding Josh. He is a VERY good passer in the mold of Randle. He wants to catch, get downhill, and finish or pass. And he is very very good at both when he gets downhill. Better than Randle in fact (hint less assists but a lot less turnovers) and just as good or better finisher at the rim than Randle.

My minds eye has Josh with some key turnovers at times trying to pass thru the lanes. Mostly fatigue. Don't get me wrong, these are not deal breakers!
I like Josh finishing based on game conditions more than starting. That energy at games end and if on the court with Mikal and OG will mess people up! Forcing turnovers leads to easy buckets! This was the core of Miami's success under Spo. close the passing lanes, force iso and disrupt flow.
Knicks team rebounding well because they box out. Josh boards and coast to coast runs down the court in part from his hustle but team efforts boxing out.
Offense boards also from this. Thibian teams work hard! Granted, Mitch and iHart got those boards but its a team thing.

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:one can argue precious starting is not far fetched. he can play big minutes and do the dirty work needed. OG is not a great rebounder but positioning at the 3 might have to do with that. I like Josh off the bench. Who starts and who finishes is not always the same.
I can also see if Deuce responds he too can start with Precious instead off the bench. Deuce has to hit that long ball three at a good clip. He will have a lot of open looks. We are better with Mikal penetrating. OG will be in the corner or the elbow and also benefit from open looks.
Josh is not a strong passer and we don't know if he fixed his shot in the offseason. It was public he was going to work with JJ Reddick and change his mechanics. Curious to see if he was able to do so (I think JJ got busy in other areas).
Camp and preseason will sort it out as these players have to execute to the level of confidence and earn it. I do think Cam Payne gets the back up role but Kolek will get a chance if he can out play him. Thibian rotations could start Cam if Brunson gets hurt keeping Kolek in the second unit. He used to do that with Hartenstin and start Sims before Isiah really got going last year.

I agree 100% that Precious will be starting. Thibs gonna want some beef up front.

Personally I consider Precious an elite defender who just hasn't shown enough offense to get the minutes/exposure to his D.

My immediate assumption was we start Precious (gives us 3 elite wing defenders), gives us length, athleticism and rim protection and doesn't miss defensive rotations.

Not sure what Thibs thinks I could see any of Deuce, Josh or Precious start but Precious is my preference because of the defense, rebounding and shot-blocking.

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:one can argue precious starting is not far fetched. he can play big minutes and do the dirty work needed. OG is not a great rebounder but positioning at the 3 might have to do with that. I like Josh off the bench. Who starts and who finishes is not always the same.
I can also see if Deuce responds he too can start with Precious instead off the bench. Deuce has to hit that long ball three at a good clip. He will have a lot of open looks. We are better with Mikal penetrating. OG will be in the corner or the elbow and also benefit from open looks.
Josh is not a strong passer and we don't know if he fixed his shot in the offseason. It was public he was going to work with JJ Reddick and change his mechanics. Curious to see if he was able to do so (I think JJ got busy in other areas).
Camp and preseason will sort it out as these players have to execute to the level of confidence and earn it. I do think Cam Payne gets the back up role but Kolek will get a chance if he can out play him. Thibian rotations could start Cam if Brunson gets hurt keeping Kolek in the second unit. He used to do that with Hartenstin and start Sims before Isiah really got going last year.

I like Precious starting too for the very reasons you suggest. And then it allows Mikal and OG to do their weak side help things which is a forte for both.

I am going to quibble with the bolded regarding Josh. He is a VERY good passer in the mold of Randle. He wants to catch, get downhill, and finish or pass. And he is very very good at both when he gets downhill. Better than Randle in fact (hint less assists but a lot less turnovers) and just as good or better finisher at the rim than Randle.

My minds eye has Josh with some key turnovers at times trying to pass thru the lanes. Mostly fatigue. Don't get me wrong, these are not deal breakers!
I like Josh finishing based on game conditions more than starting. That energy at games end and if on the court with Mikal and OG will mess people up! Forcing turnovers leads to easy buckets! This was the core of Miami's success under Spo. close the passing lanes, force iso and disrupt flow.
Knicks team rebounding well because they box out. Josh boards and coast to coast runs down the court in part from his hustle but team efforts boxing out.
Offense boards also from this. Thibian teams work hard! Granted, Mitch and iHart got those boards but its a team thing.

How can you run a 5 out offense with Achiuwa on the court? Wasn't the whole point of the KAT trade to improve wide open spacing?

gradyandrew wrote:How can you run a 5 out offense with Achiuwa on the court? Wasn't the whole point of the KAT trade to improve wide open spacing?

Precious needs to improve his shooting, that's for sure. But let's say he plays the 5 with four shooters on the floor it still affords the team more space then Mitch or Simms. At least Precious doesn't have to stay in the dunkers spot like Mitch or Simms. I seem to recall Precious set up at the corner from time to time and that pulls the opposing big out a bit.

Alpha1971 wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:How can you run a 5 out offense with Achiuwa on the court? Wasn't the whole point of the KAT trade to improve wide open spacing?

Precious needs to improve his shooting, that's for sure. But let's say he plays the 5 with four shooters on the floor it still affords the team more space then Mitch or Simms. At least Precious doesn't have to stay in the dunkers spot like Mitch or Simms. I seem to recall Precious set up at the corner from time to time and that pulls the opposing big out a bit.

It's also gonna be hard with Hart in the game. As of now, the most viable "5 out" lineup is probably going to have to feature Deuce as the 2.

VDesai wrote:Here's how I see the rotations with Mitch out

SL
Brunson-Bridges-Hart-OG-KAT

Approx 5 min mark of 1stQ
KAT goes out for Precious
Bridges goes out for Deuce
Brunson-Deuce-Hart-OG-Precious

Start 2nd Q
Brunson goes out for Payne
OG goes out for KAT
Hart goes out for Bridges
Payne-Deuce-Bridges-Precious-KAT

7 min mark
Precious goes out for Hart
Payne goes our for Brunson
Brunson-Deuce-Bridges-Hart-KAT

4-5 min mark
OG returns for Deuce
SL finishes

Something similar in half 2

Is see some Shamet in the rotation. Deuce with another short guard like Payne may not be ideal.

LivingLegend wrote:I'd move Mitch sooner rather than later --- don't trust him to stay healthy and don't trust the flaky attitude on a team that is clearly going for it.

Trade him in for someone that can function as an NBA player with some skill (don't care if it's a guard, wing or big).

We can add some size later in season but trusting Mitch not to re-injure prior to trade deadline is very dicey and I wouldn't gamble on losing that $14.3M for nothing this year.

Teams might trade for him now thinking he will get healthy mid year but who will want him if he gets hurt again say in December during rehab.

Maybe he's untradeable until he proves he's healthy on the court but if I'm Knicks I move on now (if possible).

Mitch and his health concerns are troubling. Big guys seem to wear down. As stressful as it is for the Knicks imagine how Philly must be concerned about Embid. Embid vs Mitch whose more likely to play more ,?

I get that every one is worried about Mitch's health but it's not like he plays 10 games every year. We obviously have to account for him being injured a big chunk of games and should look for a backup that can play starter for part of the season.

When he's healthy, he is a plus for our team with his defense and offensive rebounding. And he doesn't have an obscene contract. He played 59+ games 4 times out of the last 6 seasons.
Compared to Kat and OG who played 59+ games 3 times out of the last 6 seasons.
KP has 59+ games once out of the last 6 seasons. Boston is not looking to trade him.

OG and Kat are far more important to the team than Mitch and we're rolling with them.
In any case, we need to be injury free for the most part to have a chance at a playoff push.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:How can you run a 5 out offense with Achiuwa on the court? Wasn't the whole point of the KAT trade to improve wide open spacing?

Precious needs to improve his shooting, that's for sure. But let's say he plays the 5 with four shooters on the floor it still affords the team more space then Mitch or Simms. At least Precious doesn't have to stay in the dunkers spot like Mitch or Simms. I seem to recall Precious set up at the corner from time to time and that pulls the opposing big out a bit.

It's also gonna be hard with Hart in the game. As of now, the most viable "5 out" lineup is probably going to have to feature Deuce as the 2.

For their careers Precious shoots 29% from the corners vs. Josh at 40%. Leaving Precious alone in the corners to shoot 3s is a winning strategy, leaving Hart is a losing one.

We know the starters and the first 3 off the bench will be Deuce, Precious and Shamet. I think we will see some Sims and I also think Payne will get some minutes here and there.

SergioNYK wrote:We know the starters and the first 3 off the bench will be Deuce, Precious and Shamet. I think we will see some Sims and I also think Payne will get some minutes here and there.

I'd swap Payne in for Shamet with one spot open. Thibs said "I like our bench. It will be 4 of them with one of the starters." I'd ideally like a 3/4- maybe that's Okeke or maybe the Knicks are still trying to find a trade.

gradyandrew wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:How can you run a 5 out offense with Achiuwa on the court? Wasn't the whole point of the KAT trade to improve wide open spacing?

Precious needs to improve his shooting, that's for sure. But let's say he plays the 5 with four shooters on the floor it still affords the team more space then Mitch or Simms. At least Precious doesn't have to stay in the dunkers spot like Mitch or Simms. I seem to recall Precious set up at the corner from time to time and that pulls the opposing big out a bit.

It's also gonna be hard with Hart in the game. As of now, the most viable "5 out" lineup is probably going to have to feature Deuce as the 2.

For their careers Precious shoots 29% from the corners vs. Josh at 40%. Leaving Precious alone in the corners to shoot 3s is a winning strategy, leaving Hart is a losing one.

Couldn't find the career stats but Josh was below average from three points zone last season except for the right corner three at 36%.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628404...

I had an epiphany and I think Shamet was brought in to be DDV replacement and today I think he might start (this may change tomorrow). I'm basing this off how much it appears Thibs mentions him, and makeup of the rest of the roster. Shamet has also been a starter on good teams before. I think Josh is this teams Iggy/Warriors 6th man. There's just not enough bodies who can play forward. I think that's the plan all along. He will obviously be the finisher. I also think we stockpiled guards and we intend for them all to play to some degree. Thibs apparently mentions Payne a lot as well.

Jalen - Shamet - Mikal - OG - KAT
Payne/Kolek - Deuce - Hart - Precious/Mitch

This rotation probably has the best balance and makes the most sense. It's hard to see us get 4 guys off the bench any other way unless your starting Shamet or Deuce.

It's possible Precious starts and Sims gets an everynight role until Mitch gets back. But that means Payne/Kolek both hitting the bench and I don't really see both of those guys not being in the rotation.