Knicks · Pacers with Revenge and Redemption on their mind host the Knicks - 5PM MSG (page 8)

Uptown @ 11/10/2024 9:22 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Uptown wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Clean wrote:
Uptown wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Knixkik wrote:We need more from Mikal on both ends. He hasn’t been the difference maker he needs to be.

He has been the difference maker, for all the wrong reasons. Honestly so much hate has been directed at KAT that nobody is seeing how terrible Bridges has been?


No one is saying Bridges has been good.But I think KAT's offense has blinded people to his defensive fit. The system doesn't fit the roster defensively. And to be honest, it can be tweaked on offense as well.

Agreed....not fan of having Towns play strictly drop....I explained the other issues I see in the post above.

This is also why I said Kat as a 4 would not work here. Imagine him and Mitch playing deep drop. We would give up even more open shots.


I think KAT at the 4 would work a bit better. KAT is at his best when he's man to man. Even that clip of him on Jokic that had everyone glazing his defense was strictly man coverage. KAT's defensive IQ isn't there and it gets exposed when in drop. There's a reason why the Wolves gave up so much for Gobert.

Kat at the 4 takes away some of the advantages he has on the offensive end at the 5. For example, He blew by Lopez when he tried to man-up on Kat the 3 point line for easy dunks and lay ups. If Kat is playing beside Mitch, Lopez and other shot -blockers will be waiting for him at the rim if he is able to get by much quicker 4's.

Also, the spacing that Brunson enjoys now will be nearly non-existent with Mitch and Hart on the court at the same time. I don't think the front office traded for Kat with the idea of playing him at the 4. The idea was to open up the floor with Kat at the 5.


No doubt. One of the reasons I wasn't in love with the trade in the first place. But, I think you still take advantage of the KAT mismatch by posting him up. KAT will create mismatches no matter where we is. Sure, opposing 5s can help, but that plays into Mitch's strengths as an offensive rebounder. Will JB lose some spacing? Maybe. But we're at a point where his counterparts are matching or surpassing his offense anyway. We need to figure out a way to slow them down.

It's actually one of the reasons I liked the trade. KAT gives us options; he can play the 4 and 5 and I like the advantages he gives us offensively at the 5. I think he and Mitch can share the floor when we need a key defensive stops down the stretch depending on the matchups. Not a fan of them starting and playing major mins together.

Just an FYI, according to statistics, we are a top 3 offense right now. When we are healthy and Thibs has full roster of players to choose from, he has to do a good job of mixing and matching. That will be his challannge. Mitch and and Precious should help on the defensive end and on the boards.

NYStateOfMind @ 11/10/2024 9:27 PM
Agree with most, but I liked that JB realized his timing and shot was off. So, instead of playing like he is hot and taking all shots to include 3s, he decided to take 2s. He got those back on track, the 3s will come when he hits 2s at a nice clip for 3 to 5 games. Same advice I'd give to Bridges and I have given to the young kids I've coached and teammates.

Everyone wants to be Steph, but an offensive game like KD is more well-rounded and usually leads to higher % 3s. I tell kids, if you can't hit lay-ups at a high rate, why are you shooting mid-range shots. When they have that locked up, why are you shooting 3s when you aren't hitting 2s at a high rate. Then you work on the 3 range when you are strong enough to not be chucking and the stroke you learned from other ranges will translate to respectable 3s. And FTs FTs FTs. On D I prefer staying on your assignments rather than switching if you can avoid it. I know we are better than our record shows, especially short handed. Just was expecting more with this high level talent. Losing very top to next tier talent was expected, but dropping games to HOU & ATL, I didn't.


LivingLegend wrote:- starting match-ups had OG/Siakim, Bridges/Hali and Hart/Mathurin
- in 1st half OG/Bridges were solid and Hart was destroyed by Mathurin....leaving him open, losing him blindly (same as Risacher game)
- in 2nd half OG was solid again, Hart I noticed less and Bridges was destroyed by Hali
- All of Bridges/Hart/Deuce are getting roasted on ball --- reaching, off balance, losing focus in simple 1 vs 1 dribble situations
- Brunson/Kat really don't defend squat but we kind of knew that
- Bridges looks softer than Quentin Grimes on offense --- he goes to the line <1 time a game I think and he looks to have little confidence when dribbling/passing

We got killed on 3 pointers again tonight --- very low volume, low makes --- Brunson doesn't seem to be looking for the 3.

Biggest feeling watching this game and we've seen it before already vs Hawks --- we didn't give effort or stay connected defensively and we lost some key rebounds in bad spots.

I find myself frustrated watching Brunson working to get to his spots/shots --- seems to be taking a bit too long at least to me.

Philc1 @ 11/10/2024 9:30 PM
The 4-5 Knicks are a ray of sunshine compared to the unmitigated disaster sh1tshow Jets
martin @ 11/10/2024 9:33 PM
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:
Stats are great but they can also lie. My eye test been saying the same thing for years. Plus we beat up on a trash Det and Bucks. That will inflate your net rating. It also does not take into account if teams are just missing wide open 3 a specific game. Listen, I would not mind this much if Thibs had a counter when teams are clearly hitting their 3's. He does not. Our plan is if teams are hitting their open 3's just take the loss and try again the next game. Nothing changes.


If he would have missed this shot the stats would have pointed to a good defensive possessions. We know damn well that is bad defense. Stats are good but to rely only on them is not smart. We paid the price for it vs the Hawks in the playoffs. All those open 3's teams missed all year went in the second the playoffs started. It's no coincidence we had a scrub of the night that always killed us. These are NBA players. You give them open 3's they are going to make a lot of them. Especially now with the whole league emphasis on shooting.

I am not just talking about this year though. It’s a philosophy and you start at some place and work your way from there.

Stats in 4 out of 5 years is pretty convincing, especially when you are top 10. I’d guess that stats are much more consistent than your eye test?

lets make this as simple as possible so we can get to the bottom of this.

Do you think we are good at defending 3pt shots?
Do you think we have a counter to if teams are hitting their shots?

It’s pretty clear in this game and so far this season the 3 point defense has not been good.

I don’t sweat those things long term cause the Knicks work those things out. I can tell because their NET rating across the years with that same philosophy has worked.

The team is very new and has a lot of things to work out. I wouldn’t worry about a sample size of 10 games and extrapolate that to an entire focus on one thing like 3point defense. Especially when your defense guys are not around.

For me, point is to win games, not win the 3point defensive contest.

NYStateOfMind @ 11/10/2024 9:35 PM
3-7 looks really nice to Giants fans. All about perspectives, haha.

Philc1 wrote:The 4-5 Knicks are a ray of sunshine compared to the unmitigated disaster sh1tshow Jets
Clean @ 11/10/2024 9:38 PM
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:
Stats are great but they can also lie. My eye test been saying the same thing for years. Plus we beat up on a trash Det and Bucks. That will inflate your net rating. It also does not take into account if teams are just missing wide open 3 a specific game. Listen, I would not mind this much if Thibs had a counter when teams are clearly hitting their 3's. He does not. Our plan is if teams are hitting their open 3's just take the loss and try again the next game. Nothing changes.


If he would have missed this shot the stats would have pointed to a good defensive possessions. We know damn well that is bad defense. Stats are good but to rely only on them is not smart. We paid the price for it vs the Hawks in the playoffs. All those open 3's teams missed all year went in the second the playoffs started. It's no coincidence we had a scrub of the night that always killed us. These are NBA players. You give them open 3's they are going to make a lot of them. Especially now with the whole league emphasis on shooting.

I am not just talking about this year though. It’s a philosophy and you start at some place and work your way from there.

Stats in 4 out of 5 years is pretty convincing, especially when you are top 10. I’d guess that stats are much more consistent than your eye test?

lets make this as simple as possible so we can get to the bottom of this.

Do you think we are good at defending 3pt shots?
Do you think we have a counter to if teams are hitting their shots?

It’s pretty clear in this game and so far this season the 3 point defense has not been good.

I don’t sweat those things long term cause the Knicks work those things out. I can tell because their NET rating across the years with that same philosophy has worked.

The team is very new and has a lot of things to work out. I wouldn’t worry about a sample size of 10 games and extrapolate that to an entire focus on one thing like 3point defense. Especially when your defense guys are not around.

For me, point is to win games, not win the 3point defensive contest.

We agree then. So why are we arguing? Just had to cut the fluff to get to the main point.

GustavBahler @ 11/10/2024 9:49 PM
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:
Stats are great but they can also lie. My eye test been saying the same thing for years. Plus we beat up on a trash Det and Bucks. That will inflate your net rating. It also does not take into account if teams are just missing wide open 3 a specific game. Listen, I would not mind this much if Thibs had a counter when teams are clearly hitting their 3's. He does not. Our plan is if teams are hitting their open 3's just take the loss and try again the next game. Nothing changes.


If he would have missed this shot the stats would have pointed to a good defensive possessions. We know damn well that is bad defense. Stats are good but to rely only on them is not smart. We paid the price for it vs the Hawks in the playoffs. All those open 3's teams missed all year went in the second the playoffs started. It's no coincidence we had a scrub of the night that always killed us. These are NBA players. You give them open 3's they are going to make a lot of them. Especially now with the whole league emphasis on shooting.

I am not just talking about this year though. It’s a philosophy and you start at some place and work your way from there.

Stats in 4 out of 5 years is pretty convincing, especially when you are top 10. I’d guess that stats are much more consistent than your eye test?

lets make this as simple as possible so we can get to the bottom of this.

Do you think we are good at defending 3pt shots?
Do you think we have a counter to if teams are hitting their shots?

It’s pretty clear in this game and so far this season the 3 point defense has not been good.

I don’t sweat those things long term cause the Knicks work those things out. I can tell because their NET rating across the years with that same philosophy has worked.

The team is very new and has a lot of things to work out. I wouldn’t worry about a sample size of 10 games and extrapolate that to an entire focus on one thing like 3point defense. Especially when your defense guys are not around.

For me, point is to win games, not win the 3point defensive contest.

We agree then. So why are we arguing? Just had to cut the fluff to get to the main point.

Can’t lose that contest badly though. 3pt D has been our Achilles Heel under Thibs. Good teams will exploit that kink in our armor during a playoff run. The sooner we become respectable in that dept, the better.

LivingLegend @ 11/10/2024 11:15 PM
Jesus just realized Mathurin with another career high (Risacher) 38 tonight and Haliburton 35 and 40 points in 4th.

Pathetic D all night --- don't like the we are going to play D when we feel like it.

Pacers were missing Nesmith, Nemhart, I-Jackson and basically McDonnell who was supposedly playing sick ---- so don't really buy the we are tired excuses due to short rotations especially given the way Mathurin was tuning us up in 1st half.

Never a good thing when you are rooting for a team that is going to rely on offense over defense.....hopefully we turn that somehow without collapsing on offense at the same time.

LivingLegend @ 11/10/2024 11:21 PM
NYStateOfMind wrote:Agree with most, but I liked that JB realized his timing and shot was off. So, instead of playing like he is hot and taking all shots to include 3s, he decided to take 2s. He got those back on track, the 3s will come when he hits 2s at a nice clip for 3 to 5 games. Same advice I'd give to Bridges and I have given to the young kids I've coached and teammates.

Everyone wants to be Steph, but an offensive game like KD is more well-rounded and usually leads to higher % 3s. I tell kids, if you can't hit lay-ups at a high rate, why are you shooting mid-range shots. When they have that locked up, why are you shooting 3s when you aren't hitting 2s at a high rate. Then you work on the 3 range when you are strong enough to not be chucking and the stroke you learned from other ranges will translate to respectable 3s. And FTs FTs FTs. On D I prefer staying on your assignments rather than switching if you can avoid it. I know we are better than our record shows, especially short handed. Just was expecting more with this high level talent. Losing very top to next tier talent was expected, but dropping games to HOU & ATL, I didn't.


LivingLegend wrote:- starting match-ups had OG/Siakim, Bridges/Hali and Hart/Mathurin
- in 1st half OG/Bridges were solid and Hart was destroyed by Mathurin....leaving him open, losing him blindly (same as Risacher game)
- in 2nd half OG was solid again, Hart I noticed less and Bridges was destroyed by Hali
- All of Bridges/Hart/Deuce are getting roasted on ball --- reaching, off balance, losing focus in simple 1 vs 1 dribble situations
- Brunson/Kat really don't defend squat but we kind of knew that
- Bridges looks softer than Quentin Grimes on offense --- he goes to the line <1 time a game I think and he looks to have little confidence when dribbling/passing

We got killed on 3 pointers again tonight --- very low volume, low makes --- Brunson doesn't seem to be looking for the 3.

Biggest feeling watching this game and we've seen it before already vs Hawks --- we didn't give effort or stay connected defensively and we lost some key rebounds in bad spots.

I find myself frustrated watching Brunson working to get to his spots/shots --- seems to be taking a bit too long at least to me.

Yes that's reasonable. Some of Mikal's shots are brutal and having watched him some in the past I can't recall seeing him missing so badly or the shot execution looking so wonky. Seems to be rushing his shot, his handle, his passes -- like he has the yips playing in NY and knowing we gave up 4-5 1st round picks for him.

I know his 2 point % is very good but man his 3's seem to be a wing and a prayer shot out of a sling shot.

fitzfarm @ 11/10/2024 11:45 PM
Thibs needs to trust his depleted bench. TK played less than 2 min …kids got talent and Can offer our starters a solid break, even letting PD 4 get some minutes our starters were spent in the 4th . With this said I’m not worried they will figure this out and gel and when they do, watch out !
martin @ 11/10/2024 11:49 PM
Simple guess: Thibs not happy with the starters. Getting them extra minutes and reps so they can work stuff out.
DLeethal @ 11/11/2024 7:13 AM
Hard to figure this team out. Offense has been elite. Defense has moments but glaring red flags as well. Crunch time has been very poor (brand new team tings). Probably still a case to be made of a super high ceiling somewhere here. Brunson needs to take over games down the stretch and hes been mid in crunch time. Need one our defensive bench bigs back to see how that impacts the lineup (Jericho is impactless). Getting a volume shooter involved like Ryan and Shamet as well.

A couple small tweaks can fix things a lot because we are a bad 4th quarter away from winning almost every game besides Boston.

franco12 @ 11/11/2024 7:32 AM
DLeethal wrote:Hard to figure this team out. Offense has been elite. Defense has moments but glaring red flags as well. Crunch time has been very poor (brand new team tings). Probably still a case to be made of a super high ceiling somewhere here. Brunson needs to take over games down the stretch and hes been mid in crunch time. Need one our defensive bench bigs back to see how that impacts the lineup (Jericho is impactless). Getting a volume shooter involved like Ryan and Shamet as well.

A couple small tweaks can fix things a lot because we are a bad 4th quarter away from winning almost every game besides Boston.

I disagree with Jericho being impactless. I think he should be given a larger role. I think he should start next to Towns to help with defense and rebounding.

I think this was shared here earlier. Sims is one of those role players who doesn’t necessarily show up in the stat sheet. I’d start him, and look for him to grab boards and help defend the paint. Move Hart and Bridges to the bench (start McBride to help with the outside shooting and ball movement.)

That helps balance the bench and starting line up.

HofstraBBall @ 11/11/2024 7:43 AM
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:
Stats are great but they can also lie. My eye test been saying the same thing for years. Plus we beat up on a trash Det and Bucks. That will inflate your net rating. It also does not take into account if teams are just missing wide open 3 a specific game. Listen, I would not mind this much if Thibs had a counter when teams are clearly hitting their 3's. He does not. Our plan is if teams are hitting their open 3's just take the loss and try again the next game. Nothing changes.


If he would have missed this shot the stats would have pointed to a good defensive possessions. We know damn well that is bad defense. Stats are good but to rely only on them is not smart. We paid the price for it vs the Hawks in the playoffs. All those open 3's teams missed all year went in the second the playoffs started. It's no coincidence we had a scrub of the night that always killed us. These are NBA players. You give them open 3's they are going to make a lot of them. Especially now with the whole league emphasis on shooting.

I am not just talking about this year though. It’s a philosophy and you start at some place and work your way from there.

Stats in 4 out of 5 years is pretty convincing, especially when you are top 10. I’d guess that stats are much more consistent than your eye test?

lets make this as simple as possible so we can get to the bottom of this.

Do you think we are good at defending 3pt shots?
Do you think we have a counter to if teams are hitting their shots?

It’s pretty clear in this game and so far this season the 3 point defense has not been good.

I don’t sweat those things long term cause the Knicks work those things out. I can tell because their NET rating across the years with that same philosophy has worked.

The team is very new and has a lot of things to work out. I wouldn’t worry about a sample size of 10 games and extrapolate that to an entire focus on one thing like 3point defense. Especially when your defense guys are not around.

For me, point is to win games, not win the 3point defensive contest.

Bridges, Hart and OG are great at rotating to the ball.
Problem is that JB and KAT are not. Perhaps because they expect those two to do the rotating.
That has to improve.

Still feel that this team cannot be judged until we have a full roster and capable bench.

Alpha1971 @ 11/11/2024 7:58 AM
This team is great. Just not yet. Give them 30 games and a healthy bench. Then if we don't have a high seed, we will be a nightmare 6th seed.
Clean @ 11/11/2024 9:06 AM

The man has a good point. I understand Thibs has a process but he has to adjust when he is running the starters into the ground in game 9 of the season man.
Clean @ 11/11/2024 9:08 AM

I remember people coming at me in preseason when I warned about all the damn open 3's we were giving up. Bro, 44 of 46 was open(4 to 6 ft) to wide open(6+ ft). WTF? The thing people don't get is even if I have a problem with how things are done I give everyone a fair shake. I just call games how I see them. SO please stop jumping down my throat for pointing our clear flaws we have. How could I forget about the amount of open 3's we gave up to BOS. At some point we have to stop giving excuses to crappy gameplans.
franco12 @ 11/11/2024 9:40 AM
Clean wrote:
I remember people coming at me in preseason when I warned about all the damn open 3's we were giving up. Bro, 44 of 46 was open(4 to 6 ft) to wide open(6+ ft). WTF? The thing people don't get is even if I have a problem with how things are done I give everyone a fair shake. I just call games how I see them. SO please stop jumping down my throat for pointing our clear flaws we have. How could I forget about the amount of open 3's we gave up to BOS. At some point we have to stop giving excuses to crappy gameplans.

But, we have wingstop?

Fire Thibs?

Knicksfan @ 11/11/2024 9:55 AM
Clean wrote:
I remember people coming at me in preseason when I warned about all the damn open 3's we were giving up. Bro, 44 of 46 was open(4 to 6 ft) to wide open(6+ ft). WTF? The thing people don't get is even if I have a problem with how things are done I give everyone a fair shake. I just call games how I see them. SO please stop jumping down my throat for pointing our clear flaws we have. How could I forget about the amount of open 3's we gave up to BOS. At some point we have to stop giving excuses to crappy gameplans.

Putrid. It was truly an embarrassment. The pacers got the ball, made two or three quick passes and instantly had an open three. There is no excuse to that.

Nalod @ 11/11/2024 10:18 AM
Indy had a deeper bench bench before injuries. They did not score much but they played a lot.
Our guys are playing too much and get sloppy when tired.

Thibs is not confident with this bench as configured. We can say he need to play them more but we don't know the outcome.
"Well, has to be better, right?" We'll never know. A tired OG/Bridges better than a fresh Ryan? Might be. They on the road not having full practices and Ryan defense might not be up to par yet.

schizash @ 11/11/2024 12:24 PM
Clean wrote:
The man has a good point. I understand Thibs has a process but he has to adjust when he is running the starters into the ground in game 9 of the season man.

Yep. This is the 3rd game we are loosing in the 4th quarter in the same manner. Last night we had 3 starters with over 40 minutes, basically played the whole game with 6.5 players. Its pretty clear that we will still be loosing close games at the end if nothing change. Some people expect that this will change once injured players come back. However they don't take into consideration that in a long season we will have more injuries going forward, especially if we still keep playing the starters over 40 minutes each game.

In addition what happen with Kolek last night I can not understand. The guy was taken out within 2 minutes. So how many mistakes did he do within those 2 minutes to warrant taking him out and keeping him out the entire game? Isn't it common sense that rookies will do mistakes and we had to support them to get through that? Most coaches will sit the rookie down, explain to him what he did wrong and how to correct it and sometime in the game throw him back again. The way he was out, never to return, is a pure recipe for disaster for a rookie.

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