Knicks · Pacers with Revenge and Redemption on their mind host the Knicks - 5PM MSG (page 7)
SergioNYK wrote:Frustrating loss. We need to learn how to finish games on the road.I love Thibs but this was a poorly coached game by him. No reason to go just 7 deep in game number nine. I totally get it going 7 if it's the playoffs or an important regular season game late in the season but to do it now is dumb. Especially when Kolek has shown he can handle some minutes. And bad coaching not setting up more 3s especially when we got down in the 4th. Can't win trading 2s for 3s.
Awful defense in the 4th. Two passes and a Hick was wide open for a 3. Deuce had a bad game and got torched by whoever he was on. And KAT with too much room on Turner. Entire team defense collapsed.
Give the Hicks credit. You knew they'd play better after the beat down at MSG and only scoring 82 on Friday. Maturin had a career game with 38 and Haliburton had 35. Poor defense by Bridges. He can do a lot better.
On the positives, Brunson looked better and OG was so good in the first half but disappeared in the second half.
4-5 but all the mistakes are fixable. It's a long season!
Uptown wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Knixkik wrote:We need more from Mikal on both ends. He hasn’t been the difference maker he needs to be.He has been the difference maker, for all the wrong reasons. Honestly so much hate has been directed at KAT that nobody is seeing how terrible Bridges has been?
No one is saying Bridges has been good.But I think KAT's offense has blinded people to his defensive fit. The system doesn't fit the roster defensively. And to be honest, it can be tweaked on offense as well.Agreed....not fan of having Towns play strictly drop....I explained the other issues I see in the post above.
This is also why I said Kat as a 4 would not work here. Imagine him and Mitch playing deep drop. We would give up even more open shots.
SergioNYK wrote:Frustrating loss. We need to learn how to finish games on the road.I love Thibs but this was a poorly coached game by him. No reason to go just 7 deep in game number nine. I totally get it going 7 if it's the playoffs or an important regular season game late in the season but to do it now is dumb. Especially when Kolek has shown he can handle some minutes. And bad coaching not setting up more 3s especially when we got down in the 4th. Can't win trading 2s for 3s.
Awful defense in the 4th. Two passes and a Hick was wide open for a 3. Deuce had a bad game and got torched by whoever he was on. And KAT with too much room on Turner. Entire team defense collapsed.
Give the Hicks credit. You knew they'd play better after the beat down at MSG and only scoring 82 on Friday. Maturin had a career game with 38 and Haliburton had 35. Poor defense by Bridges. He can do a lot better.
On the positives, Brunson looked better and OG was so good in the first half but disappeared in the second half.
4-5 but all the mistakes are fixable. It's a long season!
It's a long season, but this team is barely progressing. Every game seems like a repeat of the previous bad one, but with a random domination in between. This game was almost a repeat of the Hawks game with no progress seen.
The 4th quarter act is alarming not only for their deficiencies, but also for their lack of urgency. This team is playing exactly like if it is a long season and they can just turn it on at any point, but this year's issues aren't the same as last season. Their defense has taken a few huge steps backwards, making it imperative to get back guys like Precious and Mitch when they were supposed to handle things on their own with the talent of the starting lineup.
But no. Oh, and Bridges... I don't know wtf to think about him. Everytime I see him, he looks lost, behind his man and clunking jumpers. His numbers may not be as bad as I'm describing, but really, he looks like he either is still lost or just doesn't fit. Its ugly right now.
This team is very disappointing considering all the hype they came with. They should forget about Boston for a long time because they aren't even close to that yet. They should focus on at least playing a respectable defense, because they are handing out career nights like crazy.
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These might be related. we are the bottom of the league in everything in the 4th.
40pts in the 4th... Embarrassing.
franco12 wrote:McBride clearly sick. Probably hurt more by playing because if he opted out, Thibs might have had no choice but to go with Kolek.28% from 3.
Thibs might have kept Kolek on the bench. Its an issue with him, but we all know it.
Clean wrote:Uptown wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Knixkik wrote:We need more from Mikal on both ends. He hasn’t been the difference maker he needs to be.He has been the difference maker, for all the wrong reasons. Honestly so much hate has been directed at KAT that nobody is seeing how terrible Bridges has been?
No one is saying Bridges has been good.But I think KAT's offense has blinded people to his defensive fit. The system doesn't fit the roster defensively. And to be honest, it can be tweaked on offense as well.Agreed....not fan of having Towns play strictly drop....I explained the other issues I see in the post above.
This is also why I said Kat as a 4 would not work here. Imagine him and Mitch playing deep drop. We would give up even more open shots.
I think KAT at the 4 would work a bit better. KAT is at his best when he's man to man. Even that clip of him on Jokic that had everyone glazing his defense was strictly man coverage. KAT's defensive IQ isn't there and it gets exposed when in drop. There's a reason why the Wolves gave up so much for Gobert.
End of story.
BigDaddyG wrote:Clean wrote:Uptown wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Knixkik wrote:We need more from Mikal on both ends. He hasn’t been the difference maker he needs to be.He has been the difference maker, for all the wrong reasons. Honestly so much hate has been directed at KAT that nobody is seeing how terrible Bridges has been?
No one is saying Bridges has been good.But I think KAT's offense has blinded people to his defensive fit. The system doesn't fit the roster defensively. And to be honest, it can be tweaked on offense as well.Agreed....not fan of having Towns play strictly drop....I explained the other issues I see in the post above.
This is also why I said Kat as a 4 would not work here. Imagine him and Mitch playing deep drop. We would give up even more open shots.
I think KAT at the 4 would work a bit better. KAT is at his best when he's man to man. Even that clip of him on Jokic that had everyone glazing his defense was strictly man coverage. KAT's defensive IQ isn't there and it gets exposed when in drop. There's a reason why the Wolves gave up so much for Gobert.
Kat at the 4 takes away some of the advantages he has on the offensive end at the 5. For example, He blew by Lopez when he tried to man-up on Kat the 3 point line for easy dunks and lay ups. If Kat is playing beside Mitch, Lopez and other shot -blockers will be waiting for him at the rim if he is able to get by much quicker 4's.
Also, the spacing that Brunson enjoys now will be nearly non-existent with Mitch and Hart on the court at the same time. I don't think the front office traded for Kat with the idea of playing him at the 4. The idea was to open up the floor with Kat at the 5.
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Uptown wrote:BTW....The Pacers were without 4 rotation guys and still played more bench players than we did...
A Thibs' special. It's wrong, but so many things are on this team.
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You can focus so much on what a player can't do that you miss what he does to help. The same thing with Randle. He has many faults but he was a great playmaker that we now miss. Tyler is the best passer and might be the best shooter on the team but Thibs is so focused on what he can't do yet that he does not play him and when he plays him its out of position.
Clean wrote:Uptown wrote:Some issues I'm seeing so far....* We over comitt on dirbble penetration - This has been a problem since Thibs has been pstalking the sidelines at MSG. It's clear that Thibs is teaching this team to protect inside-out...we protect the paint on dribble penetration, then find the shooters on the kick out. This philosphy made sense, 15 maybe 10 years ago, but with the overemphases on the 3 ball in today's league, its a problem.
* We struggle with defending the transition 3 as well...A couple of times I saw Duece run back, get a paint touch, then fly out to shooters but it was too late...
* Our last 2 losses, we saw two wings (Risachere and Matherin), not only score a career high in points, but took the most 3 point shots they tok all year... Even in the Cleveland game, the Cavs shot 33%, but they missed a bunch of open 3's.
* Defensively, we are still not on the same page as far as communication goes. Saw some confusion on whether to swicth or not, etc.
* Kat played 39 mins tonight....Mikal played 42, Brunson, 41 and Hart at 43. Guys are tired....We need our bench guys back for sure.Bro, I been fighting a war on the bold part for like 4 years now. I have always hated his defensive philosopy on this. Its why everyone shoots well vs us. Even scubs like the rookie from ATL. We give them a steady diet of open 3's.
Why is this situation more of a problem than a solution?
There is no doubt the Knicks are giving up too many 3’s but the also don’t give up too many easy rim shots, or at least that’s the practice and theory, and this has worked. The Knicks Net rating in 4 out of the last 5 years has been top 10 in league.
We just notice and focus in on Something that looks bad but smooths out cause of other things?
Ball don’t lie.
Uptown wrote:BTW....The Pacers were without 4 rotation guys and still played more bench players than we did...
I predicted. Less that 10 games in, pressure on Thibs. Too much talent to NOT figure it out. When we lose, he lose.
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You can focus so much on what a player can't do that you miss what he does to help. The same thing with Randle. He has many faults but he was a great playmaker that we now miss. Tyler is the best passer and might be the best shooter on the team but Thibs is so focused on what he can't do yet that he does not play him and when he plays him its out of position.
I take a different tact and look. FO and coaching has focused on development over rushing the young guys. It has worked but is not the best short term solution to win games.
Which do you prefer? I think this has worked more for the Knicks than not. IQ, Grimes, Deuce, RJ, iHart, Mitch. Put them in simple roles to start, let them succeed doing those things, and add to their responsibilities as the games and season moves forward.
When you ask Kolek to only make simple reads and be a ready spacer, you help him make less decisions and focus on simple things. Now defenders know they got to stick near Kolek on perimeter. It’ll make it easier for him to drive when time is ready. Build confidence too. And allows game to come to young guys instead of doing everything st once.
Uptown wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Clean wrote:Uptown wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Knixkik wrote:We need more from Mikal on both ends. He hasn’t been the difference maker he needs to be.He has been the difference maker, for all the wrong reasons. Honestly so much hate has been directed at KAT that nobody is seeing how terrible Bridges has been?
No one is saying Bridges has been good.But I think KAT's offense has blinded people to his defensive fit. The system doesn't fit the roster defensively. And to be honest, it can be tweaked on offense as well.Agreed....not fan of having Towns play strictly drop....I explained the other issues I see in the post above.
This is also why I said Kat as a 4 would not work here. Imagine him and Mitch playing deep drop. We would give up even more open shots.
I think KAT at the 4 would work a bit better. KAT is at his best when he's man to man. Even that clip of him on Jokic that had everyone glazing his defense was strictly man coverage. KAT's defensive IQ isn't there and it gets exposed when in drop. There's a reason why the Wolves gave up so much for Gobert.Kat at the 4 takes away some of the advantages he has on the offensive end at the 5. For example, He blew by Lopez when he tried to man-up on Kat the 3 point line for easy dunks and lay ups. If Kat is playing beside Mitch, Lopez and other shot -blockers will be waiting for him at the rim if he is able to get by much quicker 4's.
Also, the spacing that Brunson enjoys now will be nearly non-existent with Mitch and Hart on the court at the same time. I don't think the front office traded for Kat with the idea of playing him at the 4. The idea was to open up the floor with Kat at the 5.
No doubt. One of the reasons I wasn't in love with the trade in the first place. But, I think you still take advantage of the KAT mismatch by posting him up. KAT will create mismatches no matter where we is. Sure, opposing 5s can help, but that plays into Mitch's strengths as an offensive rebounder. Will JB lose some spacing? Maybe. But we're at a point where his counterparts are matching or surpassing his offense anyway. We need to figure out a way to slow them down.
martin wrote:Clean wrote:Uptown wrote:Some issues I'm seeing so far....* We over comitt on dirbble penetration - This has been a problem since Thibs has been pstalking the sidelines at MSG. It's clear that Thibs is teaching this team to protect inside-out...we protect the paint on dribble penetration, then find the shooters on the kick out. This philosphy made sense, 15 maybe 10 years ago, but with the overemphases on the 3 ball in today's league, its a problem.
* We struggle with defending the transition 3 as well...A couple of times I saw Duece run back, get a paint touch, then fly out to shooters but it was too late...
* Our last 2 losses, we saw two wings (Risachere and Matherin), not only score a career high in points, but took the most 3 point shots they tok all year... Even in the Cleveland game, the Cavs shot 33%, but they missed a bunch of open 3's.
* Defensively, we are still not on the same page as far as communication goes. Saw some confusion on whether to swicth or not, etc.
* Kat played 39 mins tonight....Mikal played 42, Brunson, 41 and Hart at 43. Guys are tired....We need our bench guys back for sure.Bro, I been fighting a war on the bold part for like 4 years now. I have always hated his defensive philosopy on this. Its why everyone shoots well vs us. Even scubs like the rookie from ATL. We give them a steady diet of open 3's.
Why is this situation more of a problem than a solution?
There is no doubt the Knicks are giving up too many 3’s but the also don’t give up too many easy rim shots, or at least that’s the practice and theory, and this has worked. The Knicks Net rating in 4 out of the last 5 years has been top 10 in league.
We just notice and focus in on Something that looks bad but smooths out cause of other things?
Ball don’t lie.
Stats are great but they can also lie. My eye test been saying the same thing for years. Plus we beat up on a trash Det and Bucks. That will inflate your net rating. It also does not take into account if teams are just missing wide open 3 a specific game. Listen, I would not mind this much if Thibs had a counter when teams are clearly hitting their 3's. He does not. Our plan is if teams are hitting their open 3's just take the loss and try again the next game. Nothing changes.
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If he would have missed this shot the stats would have pointed to a good defensive possessions. We know damn well that is bad defense. Stats are good but to rely only on them is not smart. We paid the price for it vs the Hawks in the playoffs. All those open 3's teams missed all year went in the second the playoffs started. It's no coincidence we had a scrub of the night that always killed us. These are NBA players. You give them open 3's they are going to make a lot of them. Especially now with the whole league emphasis on shooting.
- in 1st half OG/Bridges were solid and Hart was destroyed by Mathurin....leaving him open, losing him blindly (same as Risacher game)
- in 2nd half OG was solid again, Hart I noticed less and Bridges was destroyed by Hali
- All of Bridges/Hart/Deuce are getting roasted on ball --- reaching, off balance, losing focus in simple 1 vs 1 dribble situations
- Brunson/Kat really don't defend squat but we kind of knew that
- Bridges looks softer than Quentin Grimes on offense --- he goes to the line <1 time a game I think and he looks to have little confidence when dribbling/passing
We got killed on 3 pointers again tonight --- very low volume, low makes --- Brunson doesn't seem to be looking for the 3.
Biggest feeling watching this game and we've seen it before already vs Hawks --- we didn't give effort or stay connected defensively and we lost some key rebounds in bad spots.
I find myself frustrated watching Brunson working to get to his spots/shots --- seems to be taking a bit too long at least to me.
Clean wrote:martin wrote:Clean wrote:Uptown wrote:Some issues I'm seeing so far....* We over comitt on dirbble penetration - This has been a problem since Thibs has been pstalking the sidelines at MSG. It's clear that Thibs is teaching this team to protect inside-out...we protect the paint on dribble penetration, then find the shooters on the kick out. This philosphy made sense, 15 maybe 10 years ago, but with the overemphases on the 3 ball in today's league, its a problem.
* We struggle with defending the transition 3 as well...A couple of times I saw Duece run back, get a paint touch, then fly out to shooters but it was too late...
* Our last 2 losses, we saw two wings (Risachere and Matherin), not only score a career high in points, but took the most 3 point shots they tok all year... Even in the Cleveland game, the Cavs shot 33%, but they missed a bunch of open 3's.
* Defensively, we are still not on the same page as far as communication goes. Saw some confusion on whether to swicth or not, etc.
* Kat played 39 mins tonight....Mikal played 42, Brunson, 41 and Hart at 43. Guys are tired....We need our bench guys back for sure.Bro, I been fighting a war on the bold part for like 4 years now. I have always hated his defensive philosopy on this. Its why everyone shoots well vs us. Even scubs like the rookie from ATL. We give them a steady diet of open 3's.
Why is this situation more of a problem than a solution?
There is no doubt the Knicks are giving up too many 3’s but the also don’t give up too many easy rim shots, or at least that’s the practice and theory, and this has worked. The Knicks Net rating in 4 out of the last 5 years has been top 10 in league.
We just notice and focus in on Something that looks bad but smooths out cause of other things?
Ball don’t lie.
Stats are great but they can also lie. My eye test been saying the same thing for years. Plus we beat up on a trash Det and Bucks. That will inflate your net rating. It also does not take into account if teams are just missing wide open 3 a specific game. Listen, I would not mind this much if Thibs had a counter when teams are clearly hitting their 3's. He does not. Our plan is if teams are hitting their open 3's just take the loss and try again the next game. Nothing changes.
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If he would have missed this shot the stats would have pointed to a good defensive possessions. We know damn well that is bad defense. Stats are good but to rely only on them is not smart. We paid the price for it vs the Hawks in the playoffs. All those open 3's teams missed all year went in the second the playoffs started. It's no coincidence we had a scrub of the night that always killed us. These are NBA players. You give them open 3's they are going to make a lot of them. Especially now with the whole league emphasis on shooting.
I am not just talking about this year though. It’s a philosophy and you start at some place and work your way from there.
Stats in 4 out of 5 years is pretty convincing, especially when you are top 10. I’d guess that stats are much more consistent than your eye test?
martin wrote:Clean wrote:
Stats are great but they can also lie. My eye test been saying the same thing for years. Plus we beat up on a trash Det and Bucks. That will inflate your net rating. It also does not take into account if teams are just missing wide open 3 a specific game. Listen, I would not mind this much if Thibs had a counter when teams are clearly hitting their 3's. He does not. Our plan is if teams are hitting their open 3's just take the loss and try again the next game. Nothing changes.Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/1854341268752531593
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If he would have missed this shot the stats would have pointed to a good defensive possessions. We know damn well that is bad defense. Stats are good but to rely only on them is not smart. We paid the price for it vs the Hawks in the playoffs. All those open 3's teams missed all year went in the second the playoffs started. It's no coincidence we had a scrub of the night that always killed us. These are NBA players. You give them open 3's they are going to make a lot of them. Especially now with the whole league emphasis on shooting.I am not just talking about this year though. It’s a philosophy and you start at some place and work your way from there.
Stats in 4 out of 5 years is pretty convincing, especially when you are top 10. I’d guess that stats are much more consistent than your eye test?
lets make this as simple as possible so we can get to the bottom of this.
Do you think we are good at defending 3pt shots?
Do you think we have a counter to if teams are hitting their shots?
BigDaddyG wrote:Uptown wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Clean wrote:Uptown wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Knixkik wrote:We need more from Mikal on both ends. He hasn’t been the difference maker he needs to be.He has been the difference maker, for all the wrong reasons. Honestly so much hate has been directed at KAT that nobody is seeing how terrible Bridges has been?
No one is saying Bridges has been good.But I think KAT's offense has blinded people to his defensive fit. The system doesn't fit the roster defensively. And to be honest, it can be tweaked on offense as well.Agreed....not fan of having Towns play strictly drop....I explained the other issues I see in the post above.
This is also why I said Kat as a 4 would not work here. Imagine him and Mitch playing deep drop. We would give up even more open shots.
I think KAT at the 4 would work a bit better. KAT is at his best when he's man to man. Even that clip of him on Jokic that had everyone glazing his defense was strictly man coverage. KAT's defensive IQ isn't there and it gets exposed when in drop. There's a reason why the Wolves gave up so much for Gobert.Kat at the 4 takes away some of the advantages he has on the offensive end at the 5. For example, He blew by Lopez when he tried to man-up on Kat the 3 point line for easy dunks and lay ups. If Kat is playing beside Mitch, Lopez and other shot -blockers will be waiting for him at the rim if he is able to get by much quicker 4's.
Also, the spacing that Brunson enjoys now will be nearly non-existent with Mitch and Hart on the court at the same time. I don't think the front office traded for Kat with the idea of playing him at the 4. The idea was to open up the floor with Kat at the 5.
No doubt. One of the reasons I wasn't in love with the trade in the first place. But, I think you still take advantage of the KAT mismatch by posting him up. KAT will create mismatches no matter where we is. Sure, opposing 5s can help, but that plays into Mitch's strengths as an offensive rebounder. Will JB lose some spacing? Maybe. But we're at a point where his counterparts are matching or surpassing his offense anyway. We need to figure out a way to slow them down.
It's actually one of the reasons I liked the trade. KAT gives us options; he can play the 4 and 5 and I like the advantages he gives us offensively at the 5. I think he and Mitch can share the floor when we need a key defensive stops down the stretch depending on the matchups. Not a fan of them starting and playing major mins together.
Just an FYI, according to statistics, we are a top 3 offense right now. When we are healthy and Thibs has full roster of players to choose from, he has to do a good job of mixing and matching. That will be his challannge. Mitch and and Precious should help on the defensive end and on the boards.