Knicks · Phase 2: The adjustment stage... (page 1)

We are now at the point of the season where we are facing teams for the 2nd, and or 3rd time. We had a run of games not too long ago where we were stringing together 30 plus assists per gameand the offense was humming. Recently, we have had a handful of games where we are barely gettng over 20 assists per. Teams are adjusting to us, now the ball is in our court, and specifically, Thibs hands.

Thibs is a very good coach and one of the elite floor raisers in the game. But, I always questioned his ability to make adjustments from the seat of his pants. Whatever pre-game-plan he divises before the game, is what they are going to do, regardless of what is unfolded before his eyes. Case and point, Daigneault put on a coaching clinic last night. He showed us multipe defenses; some zone, some man-to-man, they doubled Kat in the post at times, and they ran a double at Jalen as well. On the offensive end, Daigneault explioted our poor transition defense by getting early run outs...the Wallace 3 from the deep corner was the exclamation point. Joe had several transition 3's as well. The OKC gameplan shows that they scouted the hell out of us and took advantage of all of our weaknesses. We had zero answers!

To counter what other teams are doing, it seems as if we have reverted back to the Brunson-centric offense. We rarely cut anymore, the ball is not moving. The Brunson-offense worked the second half of last year and in the playoffs while we were short-handed, but not so much this year because we have more talent. Also, teams have adjusted to the Brunson-centric offense by trapping him and playing bigger defenders on him. Watching Brunson trying to unsuccessfully bully his way to his spots through a wall of defenders, is symbolic of Thibs game plan of late. Zero adjustments. These last 4 games, the players look lost and this is when the coach needs to step in with some answers, if he has them.

I'm not saying we need to fire the coach, he has earned the right to see this through, at least to the end of the season. Adding OG, Bridges and KAT, has raised the level of exppectations. Everyone is on notice, inclluding the coach.

Which phase is drinking until your liver floats?

ToddTT wrote:Which phase is drinking until your liver floats?

Weekdays?

Wasn’t so long ago that we were moving the ball well, were talking a few games. Brunson might be doing more because some of our starters are gassed.

Absolutely Thibs should have the season (at least) to demonstrate that he’s the right coach to take the Knicks to the next level. But let’s say it’s another early exit. The starters looked like they were running on fumes for most of it. Who does the FO get to replace Thibs?

I believe the only way it’s going to work with Thibs is to get a bench player so good that he gives them enough minutes to take some of the load off the starting unit. Which is why I believe the FO will take one last shot to get Thibs a quality sub this season.

If they do make a trade and it’s still an early exit, no ECF, then I’m guessing this will be Thibs last season. I think Dolan is pleased with the FO, but at some point he’s going to want to see the Knicks take that next step.

GustavBahler wrote:Wasn’t so long ago that we were moving the ball well, were talking a few games. Brunson might be doing more because some of our starters are gassed.

Absolutely Thibs should have the season (at least) to demonstrate that he’s the right coach to take the Knicks to the next level. But let’s say it’s another early exit. The starters looked like they were running on fumes for most of it. Who does the FO get to replace Thibs?

I believe the only way it’s going to work with Thibs is to get a bench player so good that he gives them enough minutes to take some of the load off the starting unit. Which is why I believe the FO will take one last shot to get Thibs a quality sub this season.

If they do make a trade and it’s still an early exit, no ECF, then I’m guessing this will be Thibs last season. I think Dolan is pleased with the FO, but at some point he’s going to want to see the Knicks take that next step.

I wanted to see Bridges move to the bench, start Sims or Prescious, now that he is healthy. That is not adding players - because I think we'll be hard pressed to add that kind of player - not impossible- but realistically, who are they (FO) getting that fits that bill?

franco12 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Wasn’t so long ago that we were moving the ball well, were talking a few games. Brunson might be doing more because some of our starters are gassed.

Absolutely Thibs should have the season (at least) to demonstrate that he’s the right coach to take the Knicks to the next level. But let’s say it’s another early exit. The starters looked like they were running on fumes for most of it. Who does the FO get to replace Thibs?

I believe the only way it’s going to work with Thibs is to get a bench player so good that he gives them enough minutes to take some of the load off the starting unit. Which is why I believe the FO will take one last shot to get Thibs a quality sub this season.

If they do make a trade and it’s still an early exit, no ECF, then I’m guessing this will be Thibs last season. I think Dolan is pleased with the FO, but at some point he’s going to want to see the Knicks take that next step.

I wanted to see Bridges move to the bench, start Sims or Prescious, now that he is healthy. That is not adding players - because I think we'll be hard pressed to add that kind of player - not impossible- but realistically, who are they (FO) getting that fits that bill?

Maybe a trade involving Mitch and Deuce, some picks as well. Id like to keep Mitch, but I get the feeling that he will be in a deal before the trade deadline. Deuce will be thrown in to swing the deal.

I dont see the FO passing on trying to boost the bench, with the team playing so poorly vs. contenders. Maybe a high risk/reward trade.

GustavBahler wrote:

franco12 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Wasn’t so long ago that we were moving the ball well, were talking a few games. Brunson might be doing more because some of our starters are gassed.

Absolutely Thibs should have the season (at least) to demonstrate that he’s the right coach to take the Knicks to the next level. But let’s say it’s another early exit. The starters looked like they were running on fumes for most of it. Who does the FO get to replace Thibs?

I believe the only way it’s going to work with Thibs is to get a bench player so good that he gives them enough minutes to take some of the load off the starting unit. Which is why I believe the FO will take one last shot to get Thibs a quality sub this season.

If they do make a trade and it’s still an early exit, no ECF, then I’m guessing this will be Thibs last season. I think Dolan is pleased with the FO, but at some point he’s going to want to see the Knicks take that next step.

I wanted to see Bridges move to the bench, start Sims or Prescious, now that he is healthy. That is not adding players - because I think we'll be hard pressed to add that kind of player - not impossible- but realistically, who are they (FO) getting that fits that bill?

Maybe a trade involving Mitch and Deuce, some picks as well. Id like to keep Mitch, but I get the feeling that he will be in a deal before the trade deadline. Deuce will be thrown in to swing the deal.

I dont see the FO passing on trying to boost the bench, with the team playing so poorly vs. contenders. Maybe a high risk/reward trade.

even if you can find a player that matches McBride and Mitchells salary - and I think it has to be near 100% match - is that player going to be better than McBride and Robinson?

I mean McBride - outside of being hurt - has been our best shooter.

And Robinson is, when healthy, a tremendous force defensively and on the offensive boards.

Please - I don't think that player exists out in the league.

And we're crying about depth, but we're going to do a 2 for 1? Take two players and turn them into one?

So - both players seem to be struggling with the injury bug - who is going to trade this better player for them and why?

Like many I think it is a multilayered problem that can't get solved in one change. I think the roster is constructed pretty well overall but the warts (eg Brunson being small and defensively challenged, KAT being inconsistent/poor rim protector) will always look worse vs the elite teams. We don't know if Mitch returning will offset KAT's defensive challenges and help Brunson's limitations... but I suspect they will help a bunch. Our depth is limited but if McBride's knee improves and Mitch returns then not sure we can really say we have a weak bench...just maybe need to shuffle the lineups and combinations better?

I do think Thibs has improved his past stubborn ways but also believe he still doesn't really make great in-game adjustments (as others have stated many times). I don't understand his reluctance to increase the perimeter focus on defense and stick with protecting from inside out (even with KAT as primary rim protector) as this is not 2008 anymore.

Bottom line Thibs will likely need to show improved in-game coaching, combined with either finding more bench help/rim protection, etc... or simply gaining Mitch (and health Deuce) while acclimating Shamet as the season progresses.

I prefer we stick it out as even if we fail to improve - the cause/responsibility of the problems will be more evident. If we make a trade and play well and then fail - it will just delay us in fully understanding what the necessary changes are IMO.

jskinny35 wrote:Like many I think it is a multilayered problem that can't get solved in one change. I think the roster is constructed pretty well overall but the warts (eg Brunson being small and defensively challenged, KAT being inconsistent/poor rim protector) will always look worse vs the elite teams. We don't know if Mitch returning will offset KAT's defensive challenges and help Brunson's limitations... but I suspect they will help a bunch. Our depth is limited but if McBride's knee improves and Mitch returns then not sure we can really say we have a weak bench...just maybe need to shuffle the lineups and combinations better?

I do think Thibs has improved his past stubborn ways but also believe he still doesn't really make great in-game adjustments (as others have stated many times). I don't understand his reluctance to increase the perimeter focus on defense and stick with protecting from inside out (even with KAT as primary rim protector) as this is not 2008 anymore.

Bottom line Thibs will likely need to show improved in-game coaching, combined with either finding more bench help/rim protection, etc... or simply gaining Mitch (and health Deuce) while acclimating Shamet as the season progresses.

I prefer we stick it out as even if we fail to improve - the cause/responsibility of the problems will be more evident. If we make a trade and play well and then fail - it will just delay us in fully understanding what the necessary changes are IMO.

100% total agreement.

jskinny35 wrote:Like many I think it is a multilayered problem that can't get solved in one change. I think the roster is constructed pretty well overall but the warts (eg Brunson being small and defensively challenged, KAT being inconsistent/poor rim protector) will always look worse vs the elite teams. We don't know if Mitch returning will offset KAT's defensive challenges and help Brunson's limitations... but I suspect they will help a bunch. Our depth is limited but if McBride's knee improves and Mitch returns then not sure we can really say we have a weak bench...just maybe need to shuffle the lineups and combinations better?

I do think Thibs has improved his past stubborn ways but also believe he still doesn't really make great in-game adjustments (as others have stated many times). I don't understand his reluctance to increase the perimeter focus on defense and stick with protecting from inside out (even with KAT as primary rim protector) as this is not 2008 anymore.

Bottom line Thibs will likely need to show improved in-game coaching, combined with either finding more bench help/rim protection, etc... or simply gaining Mitch (and health Deuce) while acclimating Shamet as the season progresses.

I prefer we stick it out as even if we fail to improve - the cause/responsibility of the problems will be more evident. If we make a trade and play well and then fail - it will just delay us in fully understanding what the necessary changes are IMO.

Right after we traded for KAT, I said that we have a 3-4 years windows with this group to win a chip. Before this team even took the floor for the 1st pre season game, I had no expectation that this team would win a chip this year. As we sit here today, close to 40 games into the season and I haven't seen anything to change my mind...

It to the core of Brown and Tatum years to finally break through a d win the chip....This is year 3 of Garland, Mitchell, Mobley and Allen. Looks like, experience, Atkinson, and an improved Mobley was the final pieces to make them a serious title contender.

I look at this season as one to gain experience and as an evaluation year....The core seems to be set...now the FO will evaluate the roster this year and see which 1 or 2 pieces are needed to get this team over the top and are 100 percent sure Thibs is right captain to steering this ship to the promised land

Cool, cool.

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So far, Thibs has not made many if any defensive adjustments duing this stretch of the season. Thibs is a good cosoch, but his overbelief in his system or stubboness to not adjust is annoying and has cost us some games and will cost us when it counts.

We double in the post regardless of personnel. It's one thing to double team a post player like Embiid, or a team that relies on post touches to generate offense, but it seems like we will double any player in the post regardless of the percentages. Doubling, causes us to scramble and recover which gives opposing players open looks from 3. When we don't adjust this particular aspect of our defense from game to game, is assinine!

We seem to play drop coverage 90% of the time, again, regardless of personnel. It didn't make sense to play drop against players like Cade and SGA who excel in the midrage and on floaters. Would love to see us switch it up on defense; give the opposing teams different looks at times. Sometimes, we can switch on PNRs, Trap and even show some zone. Right now, the way we play, we are easy to scout because we run a daily diet of the same shit on defense.

I believe we are 26th in the league in defending the 3! Overcommiting on dribble penetration and doubling the post as if we are facing Hakeem every night ain't helping. We've seen the same sytem, mostly, eversince Thibs has been here, and it hasn't changed much eventhough the personal has.

With that said, our point of attack defense needs to improve. I mentioned in another thread that perhaps Bridges is better off the ball, playing passing lanes. If thats the case, Deuce may need more mins, as he is out best point of attack defender. Minor adjustments are needed....will we see them!?

GustavBahler wrote:

franco12 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Wasn’t so long ago that we were moving the ball well, were talking a few games. Brunson might be doing more because some of our starters are gassed.

Absolutely Thibs should have the season (at least) to demonstrate that he’s the right coach to take the Knicks to the next level. But let’s say it’s another early exit. The starters looked like they were running on fumes for most of it. Who does the FO get to replace Thibs?

I believe the only way it’s going to work with Thibs is to get a bench player so good that he gives them enough minutes to take some of the load off the starting unit. Which is why I believe the FO will take one last shot to get Thibs a quality sub this season.

If they do make a trade and it’s still an early exit, no ECF, then I’m guessing this will be Thibs last season. I think Dolan is pleased with the FO, but at some point he’s going to want to see the Knicks take that next step.

I wanted to see Bridges move to the bench, start Sims or Prescious, now that he is healthy. That is not adding players - because I think we'll be hard pressed to add that kind of player - not impossible- but realistically, who are they (FO) getting that fits that bill?

Maybe a trade involving Mitch and Deuce, some picks as well. Id like to keep Mitch, but I get the feeling that he will be in a deal before the trade deadline. Deuce will be thrown in to swing the deal.

I dont see the FO passing on trying to boost the bench, with the team playing so poorly vs. contenders. Maybe a high risk/reward trade.

We can no longer aggregate contracts. We are a second apron team. This means we can only make a trade with one of our players at a time and we must get back less money than we trade.

Uptown wrote:So far, Thibs has not made many if any defensive adjustments duing this stretch of the season. Thibs is a good cosoch, but his overbelief in his system or stubboness to not adjust is annoying and has cost us some games and will cost us when it counts.

We double in the post regardless of personnel. It's one thing to double team a post player like Embiid, or a team that relies on post touches to generate offense, but it seems like we will double any player in the post regardless of the percentages. Doubling, causes us to scramble and recover which gives opposing players opne looks from 3. What we don't adjust this particular aspect of our defense from game to game, is assinine!

We seem to play drop coverage 90% of the time, again, regardless of personnel. It didn't make sense to play drop against players like Cade and SGA who excel in the midrage and on floaters. Would love to see us switch it up on defense; give the opposing teams different looks at times. Sometimes, we can switching on PNRs, Trap and even show some zone. Right now, the way we play, we are easy to scout because we run a daily diest of the same shit on defense.

I believe we are 26th in the league in defending the 3! Overcommiting on dribble penetration and doubling the post as if we are facing Hakeem every night ain't helping. We've seen the same sytem, mostly, eversince Thibs has been here, and it hasn't changed much eventhough the personal has.

With that said, our point of attack defense needs to improve. I mentioned in another thread that perhaps Bridges is better off the ball, playing passing lanes. If thats the case, Deuce may need more mins, as he is out best point of attack defender. Minor adjustments are needed....will we see them!?

Great Post.

Uptown wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:Like many I think it is a multilayered problem that can't get solved in one change. I think the roster is constructed pretty well overall but the warts (eg Brunson being small and defensively challenged, KAT being inconsistent/poor rim protector) will always look worse vs the elite teams. We don't know if Mitch returning will offset KAT's defensive challenges and help Brunson's limitations... but I suspect they will help a bunch. Our depth is limited but if McBride's knee improves and Mitch returns then not sure we can really say we have a weak bench...just maybe need to shuffle the lineups and combinations better?

I do think Thibs has improved his past stubborn ways but also believe he still doesn't really make great in-game adjustments (as others have stated many times). I don't understand his reluctance to increase the perimeter focus on defense and stick with protecting from inside out (even with KAT as primary rim protector) as this is not 2008 anymore.

Bottom line Thibs will likely need to show improved in-game coaching, combined with either finding more bench help/rim protection, etc... or simply gaining Mitch (and health Deuce) while acclimating Shamet as the season progresses.

I prefer we stick it out as even if we fail to improve - the cause/responsibility of the problems will be more evident. If we make a trade and play well and then fail - it will just delay us in fully understanding what the necessary changes are IMO.

Right after we traded for KAT, I said that we have a 3-4 years windows with this group to win a chip. Before this team even took the floor for the 1st pre season game, I had no expectation that this team would win a chip this year. As we sit here today, close to 40 games into the season and I haven't seen anything to change my mind...

It to the core of Brown and Tatum years to finally break through a d win the chip....This is year 3 of Garland, Mitchell, Mobley and Allen. Looks like, experience, Atkinson, and an improved Mobley was the final pieces to make them a serious title contender.

I look at this season as one to gain experience and as an evaluation year....The core seems to be set...now the FO will evaluate the roster this year and see which 1 or 2 pieces are needed to get this team over the top and are 100 percent sure Thibs is right captain to steering this ship to the promised land

If Mitch and KAT are both healthy in the playoffs we have a legit shot at winning it all.

I mean we have the 6th best record in the NBA and 6th best NET rating. and we were at 5th til the last loss in each category.

Can't complain too much.

We knew the bench was thin, and Shamet, Precious and Mitch being out most of the season made things even worse. Of course overall we've been very healthy but we need another wing off the bench and we need Mitch or a defensive C off the bench.

Surprising to me is how poorly OG and MIkal have shot the 3 ball, both well under their career averages. Feels like that will turn around but I think you gotta keep reminding yourself that Brunson is the only starter on this team from opening night last year, so they need time.

But we definitely miss a quick trigger shooter like Divo, Shamet I think can fill that role but he started behind the 8 ball with the injuries.

nycericanguy wrote:I mean we have the 6th best record in the NBA and 6th best NET rating. and we were at 5th til the last loss in each category.

Can't complain too much.

We knew the bench was thin, and Shamet, Precious and Mitch being out most of the season made things even worse. Of course overall we've been very healthy but we need another wing off the bench and we need Mitch or a defensive C off the bench.

Surprising to me is how poorly OG and MIkal have shot the 3 ball, both well under their career averages. Feels like that will turn around but I think you gotta keep reminding yourself that Brunson is the only starter on this team from opening night last year, so they need time.

But we definitely miss a quick trigger shooter like Divo, Shamet I think can fill that role but he started behind the 8 ball with the injuries.

Again all those in bold mean nothing when we have had such an easy run of things so far. If they meant anything we would not be getting beat down every time we play a actual good and healthy team. The thing about the playoffs is every team past the first round are usually really good. So things are not looking good for anything past a second round exit depending on matchups.

Clean wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:I mean we have the 6th best record in the NBA and 6th best NET rating. and we were at 5th til the last loss in each category.

Can't complain too much.

We knew the bench was thin, and Shamet, Precious and Mitch being out most of the season made things even worse. Of course overall we've been very healthy but we need another wing off the bench and we need Mitch or a defensive C off the bench.

Surprising to me is how poorly OG and MIkal have shot the 3 ball, both well under their career averages. Feels like that will turn around but I think you gotta keep reminding yourself that Brunson is the only starter on this team from opening night last year, so they need time.

But we definitely miss a quick trigger shooter like Divo, Shamet I think can fill that role but he started behind the 8 ball with the injuries.

Again all those in bold mean nothing when we have had such an easy run of things so far. If they meant anything we would not be getting beat down every time we play a actual good and healthy team. The thing about the playoffs is every team past the first round are usually really good. So things are not looking good for anything past a second round exit depending on matchups.

there's no such thing as an easy run in the NBA. As of last week we had more games played and more road games than any other team in the NBA.

We haven't been 27-15 maybe once in the last 30 years, if it was all about "easy runs".

If this team is clicking it doesn't matter what the schedule is, evidenced by the 9 game winning streak last month. And if we're not clicking then we can just as easily lose to the Pistons.

I called for adjustments and we saw a few today...Thibs went deeper into the bench, early. Defensively, we played one of our best 4th quarters all season. Was it fresher legs? It didn't hurt but I loved the defensive intensity in tje 2nd half...

Also, the last time we played the Hawks, I thought Thibs didn't take advantage of Trae Young on defense. the same way most teams target Brunson. Today, Thibs targeted Trae and Bridges abused him. Gotta give props to Thibs and the coaching staff for today's game plan.

Uptown wrote:I called for adjustments and we saw a few today...Thibs went deeper into the bench, early. Defensively, we played one of our best 4th quarters all season. Was it fresher legs? It didn't hurt but I loved the defensive intensity in tje 2nd half...

Also, the last time we played the Hawks, I thought Thibs didn't take advantage of Trae Young on defense. the same way most teams target Brunson. Today, Thibs targeted Trae and Bridges abused him. Gotta give props to Thibs and the coaching staff for today's game plan.

he's a top 5 coach. Every team has issues. Boston had all those same issues... no adjustments until they had an easy playoff run and now all is forgotten.

Thibs is our Coughlin. Dude is becoming a better coach as time goes on.