Knicks · Pablo Torre Finds Out the Clippers Cheated (page 1)
gradyandrew@ 9/4/2025 12:40 AM
For those starved for NBA content, the most recent Pablo Torre Finds Out youtube is a tour de force.
With documents Pablo breaks down the intersection between Steve Ballmer, Aspiration,and Kawhi. Aspiration is a now bankrupt firm under investigation for fraud that claimed to plant trees to offset carbon footprints. I dont really want to spoil the video as it seems like Pulitzer prize level journalism, but basically Aspiration agreed to give Kawhi 7 million per for four years without any other enforcable clauses other than him remaining a Clipper folliwing a 315 million investment by Ballmer. Aspiration also signed a 300 million sponsorship deal with the Clippers.
It looks very, very much like Ballmer laundered money through Aspiration to circumvent the cap. I.E. Ballmer gives them 315 million, they give the Clippers back 13 million a year over 23 years for sponsorships, and they pay Kawhi 28 million over four years to circumvent the cap.
Aspiration recently filed for bankruptcy so Pablo Torre has documents to back up his reporting, though he does a commendable job of not making direct accusations that might open him up to a libel suit. Watch the video, it will blow your mind.
gradyandrew@ 9/4/2025 1:02 AM
Some back of the envelope math by me shows that Ca. residents making more than a million pay 13.3% in state income tax. 176 million x 13.3% is 23.4 million, pretty close to the 28 million Kawhi was paid.
I've always thought that state, local, and Canadian income taxes are one of the most underreported aspects of the salary cap and free agency. Apparently, the majority of people in the highest tax brackets are pro athletes as other high earners have figured out a myriad of ways to circumvent the tax man via stock options, deferred payment, or ownership stakes. Taxes for players are complicated because they actually are calculated on a per game basis dedepending on the local rates. Still there are millions at stake for max players when it comes to deciding between Texas and California for example.
EwingsGlass@ 9/4/2025 7:06 AM
gradyandrew wrote:Some back of the envelope math by me shows that Ca. residents making more than a million pay 13.3% in state income tax. 176 million x 13.3% is 23.4 million, pretty close to the 28 million Kawhi was paid.
I've always thought that state, local, and Canadian income taxes are one of the most underreported aspects of the salary cap and free agency. Apparently, the majority of people in the highest tax brackets are pro athletes as other high earners have figured out a myriad of ways to circumvent the tax man via stock options, deferred payment, or ownership stakes. Taxes for players are complicated because they actually are calculated on a per game basis dedepending on the local rates. Still there are millions at stake for max players when it comes to deciding between Texas and California for example.
I agree with you. I’ve always thought they ought to be able to pay net numbers to players to equalize the bargaining position. But then you get into arguments of the big market bias. Taxes are net, but marketing dollars aren’t?
That said, I’ve always believed that this kind of thing happened regularly. Crypto, Russian oligarchs, shoe contracts, employment of friends and relatives, advertising, financing terms on creative contracts.
Nalod@ 9/4/2025 8:38 AM
EwingsGlass wrote:
gradyandrew wrote:Some back of the envelope math by me shows that Ca. residents making more than a million pay 13.3% in state income tax. 176 million x 13.3% is 23.4 million, pretty close to the 28 million Kawhi was paid.
I've always thought that state, local, and Canadian income taxes are one of the most underreported aspects of the salary cap and free agency. Apparently, the majority of people in the highest tax brackets are pro athletes as other high earners have figured out a myriad of ways to circumvent the tax man via stock options, deferred payment, or ownership stakes. Taxes for players are complicated because they actually are calculated on a per game basis dedepending on the local rates. Still there are millions at stake for max players when it comes to deciding between Texas and California for example.
I agree with you. I’ve always thought they ought to be able to pay net numbers to players to equalize the bargaining position. But then you get into arguments of the big market bias. Taxes are net, but marketing dollars aren’t?
That said, I’ve always believed that this kind of thing happened regularly. Crypto, Russian oligarchs, shoe contracts, employment of friends and relatives, advertising, financing terms on creative contracts.
Were there is illogical financial outcome there is a conspiracy perhaps. Its a natural tendncy to think it and perhaps its very common but since its not widespread they caught we consider the notion that Stern/Silver just ignores it?. Its the owners league and these guys are often cited for creating wealth by circumventing the rules to get to afford these teams. All great societies and wealth creation has a crime attached to it. Why should a group of type "A" billionairs be different? If you get caught, its a different story?
There is precendence though. 25 years ago Timberwolves Glen Taylor got nailed for trying to circumvent the sytesm with player Joe Smith.
-5 first-round picks forfeited (two were returned later) -$3.5M fine -Smith's most-recent contract was voided, and his Bird Rights were stripped away -Wolves owner Glen Taylor was suspended -Wolves GM Kevin McHale was forced to take a leave of absence
Lets not forget league came down hard on Donald sterling and Sarver also.
Again, maybe this shit goes on all the time but you can't get caught. Dr Jerry Buss was a known degenerate but was never cited for anything criminal. Perhaps in todays world he faces a different morality? Nothing illegal for boozing and womanizing!
If this is a bonafide smoking gun on Clippers/Balmer we will learn about inflation. That 3.5mm Taylor paid was one thing 25 years ago. If guilty of course! The picks? That set a shitty franchise back some for sure. Balmer got a lot of money so we'll see how much it takes to hurt him.
Relative to Knicks and Brunson? Hey, league already got knicks for tampering a bit but is there going to be more? Torre alludes on this clip he working on something "Interesting" about Brunson to Knicks:
foosballnick@ 9/4/2025 9:43 AM
gradyandrew wrote:Some back of the envelope math by me shows that Ca. residents making more than a million pay 13.3% in state income tax. 176 million x 13.3% is 23.4 million, pretty close to the 28 million Kawhi was paid.
I've always thought that state, local, and Canadian income taxes are one of the most underreported aspects of the salary cap and free agency. Apparently, the majority of people in the highest tax brackets are pro athletes as other high earners have figured out a myriad of ways to circumvent the tax man via stock options, deferred payment, or ownership stakes. Taxes for players are complicated because they actually are calculated on a per game basis dedepending on the local rates. Still there are millions at stake for max players when it comes to deciding between Texas and California for example.
I believe that Pro Athletes are subject to something known as the "Jock Tax" where their State Tax rates are variable & divided up based on jurisdiction of games played in each location https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...
martin@ 9/4/2025 9:50 AM
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/PabloTorre/status/1963231125871940031
@nalod, I think the rules are a little different here because its not the rich using their power to screw over the regular guys, its rules they made up for themselves.
The Joe Smith ex is relevant but lets be clear, he wasnt a DPOY, 2x Finals MVP, Allstar. At best Joe was an above avg. power forward. Whatever the penalties are, I'd imagine them to be much, much stiffer.
The other thing is the NBA really doesnt need to 'prove' anything. This isnt a crime so the only standard that needs to be followed is the NBAs. Even for the NBA, Ballmer is way richer and connected than anyone else. I cant see him having too many allies wanting to back him up. I cant get bet from China, but Id recommend taking the under on the Clippers win/ losses this season. At a minimum I'd expect Kawhi to have his current contract voided.
VDesai@ 9/4/2025 11:38 AM
He is going after Brunson next. We will see if anything is truly up, but he put Brunson in his crosshairs.
That said he went after "the gambling scandal," and didn't really find anything of note other than doing some entertainment.
gradyandrew@ 9/4/2025 12:12 PM
VDesai wrote:He is going after Brunson next. We will see if anything is truly up, but he put Brunson in his crosshairs.
That said he went after "the gambling scandal," and didn't really find anything of note other than doing some entertainment.
He said he's gotten a lot of calls from Brunson haters. Knicks were already penalized for signing him, so I'm guessing it's talk about his extension. The fact that Brunson's extension was equal to Bridges to within a million shouldn't be ignored. Seems far more likely that the only qpq was that the Knicks offer Mikal an extension. Since the extension was still below Mikals market value, I don't see a problem.
Nalod@ 9/4/2025 1:31 PM
gradyandrew wrote:@nalod, I think the rules are a little different here because its not the rich using their power to screw over the regular guys, its rules they made up for themselves.
The Joe Smith ex is relevant but lets be clear, he wasnt a DPOY, 2x Finals MVP, Allstar. At best Joe was an above avg. power forward. Whatever the penalties are, I'd imagine them to be much, much stiffer.
The other thing is the NBA really doesnt need to 'prove' anything. This isnt a crime so the only standard that needs to be followed is the NBAs. Even for the NBA, Ballmer is way richer and connected than anyone else. I cant see him having too many allies wanting to back him up. I cant get bet from China, but Id recommend taking the under on the Clippers win/ losses this season. At a minimum I'd expect Kawhi to have his current contract voided.
Im not here to do that prediction thing or "yeah, I thought something was up....." Cuz all we know is what we read. Leonard we all knew was looking to play in the LA area and we don't know if he was putting himself to the highest bidder. Lakers were in the mix and if they played by the rules they might be a bit pissed. In todays world bitcoin can be done under the table as well as an off shore account by a foreign entity paying another. I disagree about the The Joe Smith Thing given at the time was a big deal and it was 25 years ago. True it was not a superstar type thing but That was a big fine for its day and the initial 5 picks was severe. Perhaps it was reduced as the team sucking also hurts gate attendance in visiting arenas and TV rev. Fan apathy does have a cost as well.
It addresses some of the things you bought up. Good points BTW! The timeline gets real sticky given this all occurred a few years ago.
I agree with you that itt should be more punitive reaction from the league but the CBA limits the damage and given a Ballmer is worth over $100 Billion is a drop in the bucket.
Read the article as its addresses this and much more!
It also mentions Brunson. Is there is something the league missed when it slapped Knicks for tampering? This about his extension and some crazy payment to a family member?
martin@ 9/4/2025 1:47 PM
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/lesterfreamon/status/1963321638478647646
These hints by this reporter seem to be implying Brunson and the Knicks of being guilty of some illegal conduct. That's not something the Knicks or Brunson should tolerate without threatening legal action.
joec32033@ 9/5/2025 12:02 AM
Alpha1971 wrote:These hints by this reporter seem to be implying Brunson and the Knicks of being guilty of some illegal conduct. That's not something the Knicks or Brunson should tolerate without threatening legal action.
Was going to say something similiar. He phrased it in a way that he was just bringing up a name because he took whatever deal he took and it seemed to help the team too much. More like a teaser to an upcoming movie. Then finished with what he "may or may not find" or some similiar phrasing. Very poor way for a reporter/journalist to conduct his business.
gradyandrew@ 9/5/2025 2:13 AM
Asked if Robertson had asked for any additional benefits that would not comply with league rules, Ballmer said, "They know the rules. They meaning, Kawhi and his representatives, including his uncle. We know the rules. And if anything's not clear, we remind ourselves what the rules are and we make absolutely clear we're going to abide by those rules and they understand them as well. And it's important for them to abide by them, which they have."
Dude, Balmer could have just said no. This is classic deception.
martin@ 9/5/2025 7:35 AM
gradyandrew wrote:
Asked if Robertson had asked for any additional benefits that would not comply with league rules, Ballmer said, "They know the rules. They meaning, Kawhi and his representatives, including his uncle. We know the rules. And if anything's not clear, we remind ourselves what the rules are and we make absolutely clear we're going to abide by those rules and they understand them as well. And it's important for them to abide by them, which they have."
Dude, Balmer could have just said no. This is classic deception.
The context is just a hint different. It's clear that the Uncle here has absolutely asked for stuff that goes beyond the rules.
I don't think No is really the correct or appropriate answer.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/RealTomPetrini/status/1963827561286320409
Latest news is Kawhi also had $20 million in stock options which were never exercised because Aspiration went bankrupt. Balmer invested 50 million of his own money which was part of a 350 million capital raise. So Balmer's 50 equals Kawhis 28 salary + 20 in stock options, with 2 million for overhead. The bigger problem is that capital raise for Balmer. Not disclosing that his 50 was actually about paying Kawhi and not investing in the company will definitely be a problem for the other investors. Im sure they thought Balmer believed in the company, and that convinced them to get involved too.
This is where discovery will come from. Im not sure what powers the NBA has to look at internal communications in Aspire, but you can sure bet some other investors will want to get involved because Balmer is one of the few guys in the world who can make the other investors whole.
gradyandrew@ 9/5/2025 12:35 PM
martin wrote:
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/tomhaberstroh/status/1963717179431383117
Kawhi ain't some innocent bystander here. He will be suspended for the season, the question is whether or not he gets banned for life.
gradyandrew@ 9/6/2025 1:24 AM
One thing I havent seen written about so far, what were the potential luxury tax psyments the Clippers avoided by having Kawhi paid off the books 21 million over 3 years? My numbers so far
LAC were lux tax payers in each of the three seasons.In all seasons they were top 3 in salary. Because of the escalating structure of luxury tax payments, including repeater penalties, its likely the fraud committed on other owners is over 100 million. If anyone can ask an ai chatbot for some answers, Id be curious to know the results.
gradyandrew@ 9/6/2025 1:43 AM
Cuban went on Pablo Torre today and his essential argument was that Balmer isn't stupid enough to get caught. Here's my take. Balmer or LAC reps told Kawhis uncle they would get him extra money to offset CA personal income taxes so Kawhi would get the same as he would if he signed with a team in a low or no tax state. To do so, Uncle Dennis should set up an LLC and tell Aspiration.
Here's where the scheme falls apart. Uncle Dennis named the team KL2 Aspire. The big reason this got caught by Pablo Torre was because of this ridiculous name. Any other name and there's a possibility no one looks deeper. No one in LAC wanted anything to do with this part of the deal and no one at Aspire really cared about this getting back at them as there's nothing illegal about the contract. The fact that multiple people in Aspire knew it was to skirt the nba salary tax and even after the company went down kept their mouths shut, shows you that as far as they were concerned there wasn't anything wrong.
Owners meeting next week. Balmer better be prepared to come in with an offer to the other 29 teams.
