Off Topic · Yankees Talk thread (page 121)

Why would the Yankees offer one-sixty, when the Angels are offering 137? Why not just go 145 or something like that? We might save 15 million right there.

I'm surprised that MLB hasn't put a cap in place by now, with all the spending that goes on in MLB? And this sport has a hell of a lot of players in it.

Posted by 4949:

Why would the Yankees offer one-sixty, when the Angels are offering 137? Why not just go 145 or something like that? We might save 15 million right there.

I'm surprised that MLB hasn't put a cap in place by now, with all the spending that goes on in MLB? And this sport has a hell of a lot of players in it.

actually a 7 year $160 mil contract is less in annual value than the original 6 year $140 year offer... it just gives CC more security in terms of years... i would go as high as $145 for 6 years & that's it... if CC doesn't want the Yankees' money to hell w/him.

Posted by 4949:

Why would the Yankees offer one-sixty, when the Angels are offering 137? Why not just go 145 or something like that? We might save 15 million right there.

Because NY has to overpay to try and get CC since his preference is the west coast and the NL.

Posted by 4949:

I'm surprised that MLB hasn't put a cap in place by now, with all the spending that goes on in MLB? And this sport has a hell of a lot of players in it.

i don't know why any yankee fan would want a cap. the yankees would be the most affected by a cap.

Posted by jaydh:

Posted by 4949:

Why would the Yankees offer one-sixty, when the Angels are offering 137? Why not just go 145 or something like that? We might save 15 million right there.

Because NY has to overpay to try and get CC since his preference is the west coast and the NL.

Posted by 4949:

I'm surprised that MLB hasn't put a cap in place by now, with all the spending that goes on in MLB? And this sport has a hell of a lot of players in it.

i don't know why any yankee fan would want a cap. the yankees would be the most affected by a cap.

Exactly, that's why I'm surprised that it hasn't happened. Seems that other sports like to put a cap on, since New York is usually the big spender.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by 4949:

Why would the Yankees offer one-sixty, when the Angels are offering 137? Why not just go 145 or something like that? We might save 15 million right there.

I'm surprised that MLB hasn't put a cap in place by now, with all the spending that goes on in MLB? And this sport has a hell of a lot of players in it.

actually a 7 year $160 mil contract is less in annual value than the original 6 year $140 year offer... it just gives CC more security in terms of years... i would go as high as $145 for 6 years & that's it... if CC doesn't want the Yankees' money to hell w/him.

Seven years? Ouch!

Posted by nyk4ever:

I never wanted CC and I still don't want him. Besides the fact that he has a 7.92 postseason ERA in 5 starts; he's fat, I'm worried about his arm and the guy doesn't want to play here. Never wanted him and I certainly don't want to see the Yankees give him 160. What a terrible decision.

I have a feeling you're going to be as unhappy with this off-season as I've been with the last several. Hopefully we won't both be as unhappy with the results during the season as we (or at least I) have been with last several.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

I don't like the fact that CC still hasn't decided on our offer. Not looking good. Brian better make CC an offer he can't refuse. On a young Cy Young level pitcher, you do that. And I don't mean just offering 5 or 10% more than other teams offer.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 11-26-2008 09:17 AM]

what would u suggest we offer him? at some point u just have to decide the guy just doesn't wanna play for your team & move on... if we offered him the most money & yet he takes less to go someplace else, u have to start looking at other options... sometimes people can't have everything they want on their Christmas list.

Just heard a little while ago from Gary Apple on SportsNite on SNY that the Angels are preparing an offer in the neighborhood of what the Mets gave Johan ($137 million). Yankees prepared to counter with 7 years/$160 million.

So our offer is about 15% above the competition and half what we were willing to offer A-Rod. It's a good preliminary counter-offer.

what is the max u'd be willing to give CC to get him here? how much do u expect the Yankees to offer him?

care to offer a figure Bonn or do u just wanna keep ur complaining options open if the Yanks can't sign CC this offseason?

Posted by TMS:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

I don't like the fact that CC still hasn't decided on our offer. Not looking good. Brian better make CC an offer he can't refuse. On a young Cy Young level pitcher, you do that. And I don't mean just offering 5 or 10% more than other teams offer.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 11-26-2008 09:17 AM]

what would u suggest we offer him? at some point u just have to decide the guy just doesn't wanna play for your team & move on... if we offered him the most money & yet he takes less to go someplace else, u have to start looking at other options... sometimes people can't have everything they want on their Christmas list.

Just heard a little while ago from Gary Apple on SportsNite on SNY that the Angels are preparing an offer in the neighborhood of what the Mets gave Johan ($137 million). Yankees prepared to counter with 7 years/$160 million.

So our offer is about 15% above the competition and half what we were willing to offer A-Rod. It's a good preliminary counter-offer.

what is the max u'd be willing to give CC to get him here? how much do u expect the Yankees to offer him?

care to offer a figure Bonn or do u just wanna keep ur complaining options open if the Yanks can't sign CC this offseason?

After thinking about it more, I'd say the 160 offer is reasonable (albeit on the low end) given the desperate situation for an ACE that Cashman has put us in--a situation no bright GM would have allowed. I'd go another $15 mil or so considering that that still wouldn't even cover the cost of living differences between NYC and the other places making offers but there are no good solutions to desperate situations.

7 years at $175 million... never gonna happen.

Posted by TMS:

7 years at $175 million... never gonna happen.

Never said it would or would not. I'm not in the business of predicting Cashman's behavior. BUT don't forget 10 years, $305 mil happened for an infield position player, not a young Cy Young level pitcher

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by TMS:

7 years at $175 million... never gonna happen.

Never said it would or would not. I'm not in the business of predicting Cashman's behavior. BUT don't forget 10 years, $305 mil happened for an infield position player, not a young Cy Young level pitcher

last i checked ARod signed a 10 year $275 mil extension, just a shade more than the 10 year $250 million contract he'd already set the precedent for himself w/another franchise... ARod will go down in history as 1 of the top 2 greatest players ever to play the game of baseball & he's in his prime... u think CC will ever be talked about in those terms? no way... he's a great pitcher in his prime but he's not on that level, & in no way, shape or form is he worth setting that type of precedent over... i wouldn't even pay Johan that type of money regardless if he was a FA this year or not.

Yet I bet most Yankee fans would rather have CC for $175 and spend the remaining $100 mil on getting a competent 3rd baseman than have $275 locked up on A-Rod

we had the same conversation last year & u said u expected the Yankees to re-sign ARod AND make the trade for Johan & sign him to that extension... then u said u expected them to have the funds to still sign Mark Tex this year... correct me if i'm misquoting u here.

so after we signed ARod to that $275 million dollar contract extension, traded our top 2 pitching prospects for Johan Santana & signed him to a $140 million dollar extension, & signed the biggest names in free agency this year to huge longterm deals, that would bring our payroll to, oh say $300 mil or so? is that good business in your eyes? it probably is knowing your stance on most topics.

I'm not sure how the conversation took this turn but I have to correct several errors in your post.

A) I've always said pitching comes first and signing guys like A-Rod and Tex would be a nice plus but only if the boss is willing to pay for it AFTER several top pitchers are paid for. If not, I'll sacrifice offense.

B) I NEVER argued that we should have traded Joba for Johan. (Or did you not consider him one of our top 2 pitching prospects last summer--I don't follow your comment.)

C) You're making the mistaken assumption that the rest of the team's composition would be the same if I were the GM. $27 mil annually on A-Rod, $22 mil on Johan and CC each, and $20 mil (maybe) on Tex comes to between $44 and $90 mil depending on whether A-Rod and Tex are here (see point A).


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 11-30-2008 7:32 PM]

the only reason i bring up that topic again is that u seem to be under the assumption that budget restraints should never be an issue for this organization... u expect us to get every player u set ur sights on regardless of the cost or the circumstances... some players just don't wanna be here bottomline, & if CC ends up being one of them then at some point u have to move on & consider other options.

some players just don't wanna be here bottomline, & if CC ends up being one of them then at some point u have to move on & consider other options.

I would never disagree with that. However, this used to be a place players actually WANTED to come to. Now many avoid signing here and/or say they'd veto trades sending them here. I don't really blame them but I wouldn't let Cashman off the hook for it either...Who would want to go to the harshest media market and most frustrated fan-base in sports just to play for a third place team? If you signed a big contract and weren't part of the Yankees' farm system, the media and fan base will demand perfection from you. If CC signs a $160 mil contract, everyone will demand that he perform at Cy Young level in *every* season (which is just not possible for any human to do).

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 11-30-2008 8:10 PM]

Johan wanted to be a Yankee last year... Carlos Beltran wanted to be a Yankee a couple years ago... Vlad Guerrero gave every indication he would have signed here too... sometimes the circumstances just don't make it possible to bring some guys on board that otherwise you would want & other times u pass up on guys you should have not passed up on... it happens to every franchise in baseball & will continue to happen regardless if it's Cashman, Billy Beane, Theo Epstein or anyone else who's your GM.

as Yankees fans we've been so spoiled over the years w/the ability to sign just about anyone & everyone we wanted, sometimes it's difficult to comprehend when some guys just don't wanna come here... this is nothing new, we've been turned down by other high profile talent in the past before... we tried to trade for Juan Gonzalez in 2000 & even offered him a 1 year extension but he nixed the deal cuz he wanted to turn free agent after that season... players have different reasons why they don't wanna play here, not always because they don't wanna play on a "3rd place team" as you put it... Jake Peavy prefers to stay in the NL period & that's not because he doesn't wanna play for the Yankees... if there was any AL team he would consider i would have to believe the Yankees would be among the top of his list... u just gotta accept the fact that not everyone is cut out to be a Yankee... & i for damn sure don't want any part of someone who's not enthused about the idea of coming here, i don't care how great a player they are.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-30-2008 5:40 PM]

Here's a nice article that reiterates what I was saying about Hughes regaining some of his velocity in the AFL before:
http://
http://www.nydailynews.com/...

Phil Hughes focusing on 2009

BY MARK FEINSAND
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Saturday, November 29th 2008, 8:35 PM

What a difference a year makes.

Last winter, Phil Hughes was one of the hottest commodities in baseball, the centerpiece of a proposed trade between the Yankees and Twins that would have landed Johan Santana in pinstripes.

Now, as the Yankees pursue free agent pitchers CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Derek Lowe, the 22-year-old Hughes is uncertain whether he'll even be in the majors when the 2009 season starts.

"It's just one of those wait-and-see things," Hughes said from his family's Southern California home. "We'll sign whoever we sign this winter, and I'll go to spring training with the same attitude that I always do. I don't worry about the things I can't control."

Last offseason, the Yankees decided not to deal their prized prospect, passing on Santana and allowing him to move across town to Shea Stadium, where he starred for the Mets in 2008.

Hughes was handed a starting job before spring training even started, with most experts inserting him into the No.3 spot in the rotation ahead of Mike Mussina. Putting a lot of weight on his shoulders, the Yankees expected Hughes to take charge in his first full season in the majors and help the Bombers continue their run of 13 consecutive years in the postseason.

But after ineffectiveness and injury ruined what was supposed to be Hughes' breakout season, second-guessing about the Santana deal began, and many began to question whether Hughes would ever live up to his seemingly unlimited potential.

"Last year went the way it went and all the sudden the questions came up like, 'Will he ever be Phil Hughes?'" general manager Brian Cashman said. "He never had the chance last year."

Hughes battled through a dismal April, going 0-4 with a 9.00 ERA in six starts before landing on the disabled list with a fractured rib, costing him three months.

"The last start I made, I was hurting," Hughes said. "The starts before that, I really didn't feel it at all. It would be easy to say I was hurt the whole time, but I'm not the kind of guy to do that. It wasn't the case. I was just struggling."

It took Hughes some time to regain his form in the minors, prompting the Yankees to leave him there until September, when he made two final appearances at the big-league level before heading to the Arizona Fall League to get more innings under his belt.

Hughes went 2-0 with a 3.00ERA in seven AFL starts, but if you take out his disastrous outing on Oct. 18 in which he allowed seven runs in 2-2/3 innings, Hughes posted a 0.99 ERA in his other six games. He struck out 38 batters in 30 innings, routinely hitting 94-95 mph with his fastball - something he didn't do during his time with the Yankees last season.

"I was there for the innings, but at the same time, I didn't want to go out and get walloped every time I took the mound," Hughes said. "I worked on some things, got my innings in and was pretty successful at the same time."

While Hughes bulked up his innings total, he also used the time to work on his cutter, a pitch he started to develop late in the season after he decided to scrap his slider altogether.

"My slider wasn't working at all," Hughes said. "I worked a lot this fall on my cutter and my changeup, and both have come a long way."

Having pitched 99-2/3 innings this year between the majors and the AFL, Hughes is hoping to get his total up to 150-175 next season, putting him in line to approach the 200-inning mark by 2010. Although Hughes hasn't proven to be the front-line starter the Yankees expect him to be, it's easy to forget that he's still just 22, an age at which many pitchers are still toiling in the lower levels of the minors.

With Chien-Ming Wang and Joba Chamberlain penciled into the rotation and the Yankees expected to sign two - if not three - starters this winter, Hughes will be fortunate to have an opportunity to battle for the fifth spot when camp opens in February.

"Especially the way my season went, that's realistically going to be the case," Hughes said. "I had the same attitude in spring training when I was 19 and had no shot at making the team as I did last year when everyone expected I would. I'll just work hard and see where that takes me."

Posted by TMS:

Johan wanted to be a Yankee last year... Carlos Beltran wanted to be a Yankee a couple years ago... Vlad Guerrero gave every indication he would have signed here too... sometimes the circumstances just don't make it possible to bring some guys on board that otherwise you would want & other times u pass up on guys you should have not passed up on... it happens to every franchise in baseball & will continue to happen regardless if it's Cashman, Billy Beane, Theo Epstein or anyone else who's your GM.

as Yankees fans we've been so spoiled over the years w/the ability to sign just about anyone & everyone we wanted, sometimes it's difficult to comprehend when some guys just don't wanna come here... this is nothing new, we've been turned down by other high profile talent in the past before... we tried to trade for Juan Gonzalez in 2000 & even offered him a 1 year extension but he nixed the deal cuz he wanted to turn free agent after that season... players have different reasons why they don't wanna play here, not always because they don't wanna play on a "3rd place team" as you put it... Jake Peavy prefers to stay in the AL period & that's due to his desire to stay in the NL, not because he doesn't wanna play for the Yankees... if there was any AL team he would consider i would have to believe the Yankees would be among the top of his list... u just gotta accept the fact that not everyone is cut out to be a Yankee... & i for damn sure don't want any part of someone who's not enthused about the idea of coming here, i don't care how great a player they are.

So basically desirable FAs fall into one of two groups: (a) they don't want to be here; or (b) they did want to be here but Cashman found a way to screw things up. That's wonderful

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by TMS:

Johan wanted to be a Yankee last year... Carlos Beltran wanted to be a Yankee a couple years ago... Vlad Guerrero gave every indication he would have signed here too... sometimes the circumstances just don't make it possible to bring some guys on board that otherwise you would want & other times u pass up on guys you should have not passed up on... it happens to every franchise in baseball & will continue to happen regardless if it's Cashman, Billy Beane, Theo Epstein or anyone else who's your GM.

as Yankees fans we've been so spoiled over the years w/the ability to sign just about anyone & everyone we wanted, sometimes it's difficult to comprehend when some guys just don't wanna come here... this is nothing new, we've been turned down by other high profile talent in the past before... we tried to trade for Juan Gonzalez in 2000 & even offered him a 1 year extension but he nixed the deal cuz he wanted to turn free agent after that season... players have different reasons why they don't wanna play here, not always because they don't wanna play on a "3rd place team" as you put it... Jake Peavy prefers to stay in the AL period & that's due to his desire to stay in the NL, not because he doesn't wanna play for the Yankees... if there was any AL team he would consider i would have to believe the Yankees would be among the top of his list... u just gotta accept the fact that not everyone is cut out to be a Yankee... & i for damn sure don't want any part of someone who's not enthused about the idea of coming here, i don't care how great a player they are.

So basically desirable FAs fall into one of two groups: (a) they don't want to be here; or (b) they did want to be here but Cashman found a way to screw things up. That's wonderful

um, no but typical response from you on that one.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-30-2008 5:47 PM]

Posted by VDesai:
He struck out 38 batters in 30 innings, routinely hitting 94-95 mph with his fastball - something he didn't do during his time with the Yankees last season.

i've seen Hughes hit 94 consistently in starts before... his problem was his fastball had little to no movement & guys were blasting those 4 seamers on a regular basis... plus he was getting behind hitters in the count & forced into situations where he had no choice but to throw that straight fastball & he wasn't keeping guys guessing... i really hope that new changeup will help matters but i'm not putting any hopes in a cutter pitch cuz that won't help much against right handed hitters.