Off Topic · Yankees Talk thread (page 126)

Posted by nyk4ever:

Looks like a Cano for Matt Kemp deal could be going down...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/89120...

12:49 p.m. — Dodgers, Yanks talking trade

As the Dodgers try to resolve their infield, they are again talking to the Yankees about a trade for second baseman Robinson Cano. The teams have resumed their discussions about Cano at the winter meetings, according to one source.

The Dodgers also are interested in Yankees center fielder Melky Cabrera, and the Yankees likely would want outfielder Matt Kemp and pitching in return. The Dodgers' interest in Cabrera is a sign that they might not be confident of Andruw Jones making a strong return in 2009. The Dodgers also need to find a match for Juan Pierre, who has requested a trade.

Wow. I really like Kemp, he can easily be a 30/30 guy. It'll be tough to give up on a 2B who can hit like Cano when he's right. Who would replace him?

I'll personally drive Melky to LA. The Dodgers would be nuts to bring along Cano's partner in crime.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Looks like a Cano for Matt Kemp deal could be going down...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/89120...

12:49 p.m. — Dodgers, Yanks talking trade

As the Dodgers try to resolve their infield, they are again talking to the Yankees about a trade for second baseman Robinson Cano. The teams have resumed their discussions about Cano at the winter meetings, according to one source.

The Dodgers also are interested in Yankees center fielder Melky Cabrera, and the Yankees likely would want outfielder Matt Kemp and pitching in return. The Dodgers' interest in Cabrera is a sign that they might not be confident of Andruw Jones making a strong return in 2009. The Dodgers also need to find a match for Juan Pierre, who has requested a trade.

Who would play 2nd base then? I don't know much about Kemp but I see his production was below what you'd expect from a CFer last year. I realize he's young, though, and Cano's season was obviously below what you'd expect from a 2nd baseman too.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-08-2008 1:41 PM]

Posted by nyk4ever:

Personally I would love this deal. Kemp can play any of the outfield positions, including CF, which is where I'm assuming where he will play if this trade goes down. Kemp is young (he's only 24) has a good bat, he will be a consistent .300 hitter, has 30hr power and has a evovling eye at the plate (his walk total rose nearly 30 last year.)

If we are giving up Cano, this is the kind of guy I was expecting to get in return, so I would be very satisfied with this type of deal. If this deal goes through, I would instantly send Orlando Hudson a contract offer and I think with those 2 deals combined we'd be upgrading our offense and defense in a good way.

If he can solidify CF for the next decade, you have to make that deal. If it happens I'd like to see the Yankees sign Orlando Hudson.

Who plays 2B? I'd call Orlando Hudson with a contract offer the instant this deal goes down.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Looks like a Cano for Matt Kemp deal could be going down...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/89120...

12:49 p.m. — Dodgers, Yanks talking trade

As the Dodgers try to resolve their infield, they are again talking to the Yankees about a trade for second baseman Robinson Cano. The teams have resumed their discussions about Cano at the winter meetings, according to one source.

The Dodgers also are interested in Yankees center fielder Melky Cabrera, and the Yankees likely would want outfielder Matt Kemp and pitching in return. The Dodgers' interest in Cabrera is a sign that they might not be confident of Andruw Jones making a strong return in 2009. The Dodgers also need to find a match for Juan Pierre, who has requested a trade.

Who would play 2nd base then? I don't know much about Kemp but I see his production was below what you'd expect from a CFer last year. I realize he's young, though, and Cano's season was obviously below what you'd expect from a 2nd baseman too.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-08-2008 1:41 PM]

Actually counting the 35 SBs, he probably gave average productivity for a CFer, which aint bad for a 24 year old. I'd do this trade but I'd be concerned about 2nd base.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Who plays 2B? I'd call Orlando Hudson with a contract offer the instant this deal goes down.

That would be sweet! I didn't realize he was an FA

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by TMS:

last reports i read had Boras wanting at least $25 mil per over 10 years for Tex.

What Boras wants and what the market will bear are 2 completely different things.

Tex will be lucky to get $20M per for 10years. I can see him signing a contract for $22-23M for 8. Manny will get more per year.

yeah, that's where i estimated he'd be getting in the real world... Boras has made a habit of asking for ridiculous amounts even tho he damn well knows the market will not bear his demands (see Carlos Beltran)

Posted by nyk4ever:

Personally I would love this deal. Kemp can play any of the outfield positions, including CF, which is where I'm assuming where he will play if this trade goes down. Kemp is young (he's only 24) has a good bat, he will be a consistent .300 hitter, has 30hr power and has a evovling eye at the plate (his walk total rose nearly 30 last year.)

If we are giving up Cano, this is the kind of guy I was expecting to get in return, so I would be very satisfied with this type of deal. If this deal goes through, I would instantly send Orlando Hudson a contract offer and I think with those 2 deals combined we'd be upgrading our offense and defense in a good way.

unless we're getting Billingsley, i take a pass... Cano is a top notch 2B who has hit .340 before & we know last year was an aberration (at least i do), & worth more than an OFer who isn't an elite talent... Kemp is pretty good but no way would i give up Cano for him... if the deal is Cano & Melkman for Kemp & a top notch pitching prospect from LA, then we can talk.

Posted by VDesai:

Personally I'm not a huge believer in Derek Lowe- he was nearing disaster territory in his last few years in Boston (last time he was in the AL) and revived himself in the best pitchers park in baseball (Dodger Stadium). I'd rather take a spin on Burnett.

I'm also probably the only one out there that would rather keep trying with Hughes, Kennedy and the other guys like Aceves and Coke on the 4/5 spot rather that throw a huge contract at an inconsistent middle tier pitcher. I think we do need to sign at least one vet (Pettitte or a Pettitte equivalent).

i don't have a problem sticking w/Hughes or another youngster as the #5 guy but we can't rely on these kids to be our #3 or #4 like we did last year... we have to make sure we have some depth on this team pitching wise who we know can give you innings & be durable... that's why Lowe is such a great fit for NY IMO... he's a guarantee that he'll give u 190-200 innings every year & he's performed well on the big stage & isn't afraid of pressure packed postseason moments... he's also versatile enough to pitch some relief in a pinch for you & he's got 1 of those rubber arms that can pitch on short rest if need be... i have always liked Derek Lowe as a player, he's 1 of those "gamers" that i think we need more of around here... i know he's getting older but he relies more on a sinker & slider so he's not going to overpower guys anymore anyways... i think he's a great fit for our current needs.

AJB's stuff is tempting but his injury history is such a red flag, u almost have to stay away from him... his only good seasons have been during contract years, another huge red flag... i love the fact that he's got dominating stuff but u can't risk a 5 year contract on a guy w/that type of sketchy health record... last thing i wanna see is another Carl Pavano episode.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-08-2008 2:32 PM]

The red flags to me are Lowe is 35 and in his last year in the AL he had a 5.42, 1.61 WHIP and .299 BAA

Posted by TMS:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Personally I would love this deal. Kemp can play any of the outfield positions, including CF, which is where I'm assuming where he will play if this trade goes down. Kemp is young (he's only 24) has a good bat, he will be a consistent .300 hitter, has 30hr power and has a evovling eye at the plate (his walk total rose nearly 30 last year.)

If we are giving up Cano, this is the kind of guy I was expecting to get in return, so I would be very satisfied with this type of deal. If this deal goes through, I would instantly send Orlando Hudson a contract offer and I think with those 2 deals combined we'd be upgrading our offense and defense in a good way.

unless we're getting Billingsley, i take a pass... Cano is a top notch 2B who has hit .340 before & we know last year was an aberration (at least i do), & worth more than an OFer who isn't an elite talent... Kemp is pretty good but no way would i give up Cano for him... if the deal is Cano & Melkman for Kemp & a top notch pitching prospect from LA, then we can talk.

I view Cano as an .800 OPS 2nd baseman (which is not bad by any means) who has so far shown no improvement in his areas of weakness. I really prefer guys who make pitchers work hard and don't like his approach to offense too. I'd do the trade for Kemp but just barely. It's not a no-brainer.

Kemp is not as talented a player as Cano... believe me, i've watched my share of Dodger games out here out of pure boredome & gone to a few games... his glove & range in the OF is nothing to write home about & his bat is not scaring anyone... he's got a little pop in his bat, has a good arm & can steal bases but he also strikes out a TON, almost 3 times as much as Cano did last year!

Kemp is not worth trading Cano for in my book... not sure where nyk thinks he's got 30 HR power when his career high is 18 over a full season either... he's definitely not hitting 30 dingers in YS, i'll tell u that right now... he's still young & developing & i'm sure he's still got some upside there, but to me, Cano should get you more back in a trade than that... an .800 OPS for a 2B is a lot more valuable than an .800 OPS from an OFer IMO... if we're not getting young pitching in return for Cano or a legitimate star player, i take a pass, simple as that... i'd much rather just sign someone like Rocco Baldelli on a FA contract to play CF & use Cano in a trade to acquire pitching than trade away 1 of our biggest trade chips to bring someone like Kemp here to play the OF.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-08-2008 3:41 PM]

It's rare that a strikeout hurts a team any more or less than a flyout or groundout. That's a stat I pay little attention to. You may be right about Kemp though. This would be an awfully tough decision.

Posted by Bonn1997:

It's rare that a strikeout hurts a team any more or less than a flyout or groundout. That's a stat I pay little attention to. You may be right about Kemp though. This would be an awfully tough decision.

how do u figure that? a strikeout accomplishes absolutely nothing... u don't move runners over, u don't make guys field their position... it's a free out swing & miss... just cuz ur OBP says ur about equal doesn't mean ur not doing other things by making those outs by putting contact on the ball that you could never do if you're not hitting the ball at all... guys that strike out a lot better net you big power numbers, otherwise they're not a valuable commodity to your team.

Wow Matt Kemp huh? Every time I've been back to look at the Dodger website it's been to look over their pitching so to be honest, I really haven't given this kid too much thought. I'm a big Cano guy, but there's certainly a lot to like with Kemp - youth (2 yrs. younger than Cano actually), ability to hit for average, 40 2B potential, budding HR power - even to the opposite field, speed (35 SB last year), range in the OF with a powerful throwing arm (just got done looking at over 20 clips of Kemp highlights and at least 5 were of him nailing a runner trying to take an extra base). The guy appears to have all 5 tools. Only negatives seem to be the low walk totals (yeah he had about 30 more BBs than the previous year but it also came with over 300 more ABs) and the high strikeout numbers. But still, he's got ability and he's clearly the best CF option that the Yankees have shown interest in so far (he's better than Mike Cameron & David DeJesus). Question - anyone know his minor league numbers? Curious if he showed this kind of ability, esp. power, at the minor league level.

Damn Brett Gardner man. I really wanted this kid to get the CF job but he doesn't exactly give you two legs to stand on when trying to make a case for him, that's for sure. Still, my gut told me that he could've done the job fulltime provided we upgraded enough in other areas. Oh well. I'll probably just have to be happy that he makes the team as a utility OFer...

Couple of things to consider with a Kemp for Cano/Melky swap -

(1) I agree with you guys, Orlando Hudson would appear to be the logical choice to replace Cano and I think he'd do a good job.
(2) Would bringing in Kemp suddenly make A-Jax expendable now? A few things that immediately come to mind are either A-Jax now moving in either a Jake Peavy scenario (it's been written that Towers had little interest in Robbie Cano but liked A-Jax a lot - who knows if Cash even had A-Jax on the table with the Pads in the few brief talks they already had) or maybe we expand the Dodger scenario to something like Cano/A-Jax and possibly Kennedy or Hughes for Kemp and Billingsley. And who knows what A-Jax could fetch around both leagues if Cashman made him available. Another thing to consider - I just read that CC Sabathia ran into Dodger GM Ned Colletti in Vegas Sunday night and allegedly told him he wants to be a Dodger. Here's the link to the article:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=...

So say LA suddenly wipped up something for Sabathia and landed him - would Billingsley (who didn't pitch well last post-season against Philly and even angered some teammates with some Ian Kennedy-like nonchalant remarks after a post-season loss if memory serves) suddenly become available in a larger trade with the Yankees, esp. if we included Kennedy, who's never gonna be more than an average ML pitcher IMO or Hughes, who's disappointed in NY so far? I would think Kemp and Billingsley would definitely be better than keeping Cano (off the mysterious off-year) and not landing the frontline pitcher we hope to in Sabathia, Burnett, Lowe or Peavy in a trade...


[Edited by - finestrg on 12-08-2008 10:37 PM]

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

It's rare that a strikeout hurts a team any more or less than a flyout or groundout. That's a stat I pay little attention to. You may be right about Kemp though. This would be an awfully tough decision.

how do u figure that? a strikeout accomplishes absolutely nothing... u don't move runners over, u don't make guys field their position... it's a free out swing & miss... just cuz ur OBP says ur about equal doesn't mean ur not doing other things by making those outs by putting contact on the ball that you could never do if you're not hitting the ball at all... guys that strike out a lot better net you big power numbers, otherwise they're not a valuable commodity to your team.

You also don't hit into double plays when you strikeout. I think outs where the ball is put into play do more harm about as often as they do more good than strikeouts; or, if not, the difference is probably negligable. I don't pay much attention to how many strikeouts vs. groundout/flyouts a pitcher has either, for the same reason. I've never held it against Wang that he doesn't strikeout many even though your same logic should apply against Wang.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-08-2008 9:24 PM]

Billingsley is on a rookie contract and under control for a while still, and currently their ace. Even with Sabathia, i don't believe they have ML ready starters to trade.

Posted by jaydh:

Billingsley is on a rookie contract and under control for a while still, and currently their ace. Even with Sabathia, i don't believe they have ML ready starters to trade.

I agree to a certain extent, but the logic would be that if they landed Sabathia they'd have their new ace in CC. Now you figure if that happened, we'd likely show immediate interest in Billingsley as well as Kemp (at least I would if I were Cash, with CC now off the table) and then to get him, you figure the Yanks might expand the Cano trade to include A-Jax and/or Hughes or Kennedy instead of just Cabrera. The Dodgers may then be content to duke it out with the Yanks on the FA market regarding the remaining 2nd tier pitching talent that would still be out there. Both teams would have upgraded significantly:

Dodgers get CC Sabathia, Robinson Cano, Austin Jackson and Hughes or Kennedy.

Yankees get Chad Billingsley (the ace we needed to get) and Matt Kemp - two young 24 yr. olds with proven ability at the ML level. Yanks could then move quickly to improve further: Cash can go get Orlando Hudson to man 2B (hopefully he's healthy from that left hand/wrist injury he sustained last August - anyone know if he's fully healed??) as well as Mark Tex. to play first, a guy I've wanted all along btw, and maybe one more pitcher like a Derek Lowe or re-sign Andy Pettitte for something in between $10-16 million. That wouldn't have been what they set out to do, but together with Swisher, that's be one hell of an off-season right there.

Speculative and not all together likely it goes down exactly like that but who knows. I think it could be plausible...


[Edited by - finestrg on 12-08-2008 10:03 PM]

I just don't know why any team would give up on a proven player like Billingsley at this point of his career, no matter the return. Sure the yanks and several other prospect loaded teams can make sweet offers, but if he's not available it doesn't really matter.

Posted by jaydh:

I just don't know why any team would give up on a proven player like Billingsley at this point of his career, no matter the return. Sure the yanks and several other prospect loaded teams can make sweet offers, but if he's not available it doesn't really matter.

I guess it would all depend on what their thoughts are on A-Jax, Hughes and Kennedy (Hughes and Kennedy are from California btw). Expanding the trade to include such names makes the package A LOT more valuable and enticing if you ask me. A-Jax is one of the better position player prospects in the game right now and Hughes is probably still highly thought-of, coming off the nice showing in Sept. and recently in the AFL. Kennedy's very young and at least has some value as a projected middle-of-the-rotation starter. And this all would be after LA hypothetically grabbed possibly the best pitcher in the game through FA in Sabathia. Ask yourself - if you were a Dodger fan, how upset could you possibly be if you lost Billingsley and Kemp but gained Sabathia, Cano, Austin Jackson AND Hughes or Kennedy? I don't think I'd be that upset. I'd probably be thinking I just improved my team with that outcome....

[Edited by - finestrg on 12-08-2008 10:21 PM]

Posted by jaydh:

I just don't know why any team would give up on a proven player like Billingsley at this point of his career, no matter the return. Sure the yanks and several other prospect loaded teams can make sweet offers, but if he's not available it doesn't really matter.

no one's saying they're looking to deal the guy... the reasoning is i don't trade away Cano for anything less than proven young pitching or a star player... Kemp is neither... we don't need to trade Cano for a guy w/his skillset IMO... it just doesn't help this team all that much to be worth the trouble.

& Finestrg, Kemp does not have good range in the OF... check his ZR ratings & you'll see what i'm talking about... Melky Cabrera's got a better range rating in fact than Kemp does & his arm is even better... defensively he's a downgrade from Melky & offensively he's not an upgrade over Cano... what's the point?

Yankees aren't trading Austin Jackson for Kemp either, so unless someone like Billingsley or another top pitching prospect is on the table, really there's nothing the Dodgers have that we would want.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-08-2008 7:37 PM]