Off Topic · Yankees Talk thread (page 188)

my God, could Jorge have lollygagged it any more down the line on that little dribbler in the 9th inning to keep the tying run on base & beat out that double play? that was pretty pathetic.

this team is sleepwalking through another season... wonderful.

now that said, there's a BIG difference between expressing concern over the way the team's playing & saying you're embarassed to be a fan of the team... just wanna make that clear.

Wait, so you can be embarrassed or frustrated by the play of the team, but being embarrassed or frustrated by decisions made by management and the overall organizational model makes you somehow "disloyal"...how does that work? Dont play that game, bro.

If being a Yankee fan means you remove all critical thought about the organization and blindly cheer every move then I guess I'm not a Yankee fan.

Perhaps if more fans asked questions, like how on earth did the Tampa Bay Rays win the division with a 63 million dollar payroll, to our 200 + million dollar payroll, instead of tossing their boxers at Cashman every offseason when he makes some ridiculous 100+ million dollar signing, we wouldnt be getting our asses beat.

Posted by sebstar:

Perhaps if more fans asked questions, like how on earth did the Tampa Bay Rays win the division with a 63 million dollar payroll, to our 200 + million dollar payroll,

b/c that's baseball. payroll doesn't really mean too much. that's the point.

Posted by sebstar:

now that said, there's a BIG difference between expressing concern over the way the team's playing & saying you're embarassed to be a fan of the team... just wanna make that clear.

Wait, so you can be embarrassed or frustrated by the play of the team, but being embarrassed or frustrated by decisions made by management and the overall organizational model makes you somehow "disloyal"...how does that work? Dont play that game, bro.

If being a Yankee fan means you remove all critical thought about the organization and blindly cheer every move then I guess I'm not a Yankee fan.

Perhaps if more fans asked questions, like how on earth did the Tampa Bay Rays win the division with a 63 million dollar payroll, to our 200 + million dollar payroll, instead of tossing their boxers at Cashman every offseason when he makes some ridiculous 100+ million dollar signing, we wouldnt be getting our asses beat.

yes, there's a difference... u say you're embarassed to be a Yankee fan... then why continue to follow the team? that's bandwagonism at its best dude... real fans stick by the team regardless if they're playing like crap or not... i'm not jumping ship here, just stating the concerns i have over how they're playing... there is a difference there... i ain't trying to say you're not a true fan but to constantly complain about how Cashman built this team when you were probably on the underwear throwing train at the time guys like Teix, CC & AJB were signed is silly... i hear it every year from fans... they laud the moves when they're made & then kill the GM after the fact if they don't meet their expectations... shouldn't we be holding the players themselves accountable for not performing? does the GM take the AB's for these guys? just checking.

IMO there's something wrong w/this team & it's NOT because they're lacking talent or how the team is built... on paper they look very well balanced & very well stacked offensively & pitching wise... IMO the problem stems from some deeper intangible factor... perhaps a lack of leadership... perhaps a lack of motivation... whatever it is, these guys are playing like they don't even care... falling asleep in big situations during games... making silly defensive errors in the field that no major leaguer should be making... not hustling on the basepaths... this is not the fault of the GM... the players have to be held accountable at some point, & so does the Manager... it's his job to motivate these guys to play at their best... the GM can only do so much.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by sebstar:

now that said, there's a BIG difference between expressing concern over the way the team's playing & saying you're embarassed to be a fan of the team... just wanna make that clear.

Wait, so you can be embarrassed or frustrated by the play of the team, but being embarrassed or frustrated by decisions made by management and the overall organizational model makes you somehow "disloyal"...how does that work? Dont play that game, bro.

If being a Yankee fan means you remove all critical thought about the organization and blindly cheer every move then I guess I'm not a Yankee fan.

Perhaps if more fans asked questions, like how on earth did the Tampa Bay Rays win the division with a 63 million dollar payroll, to our 200 + million dollar payroll, instead of tossing their boxers at Cashman every offseason when he makes some ridiculous 100+ million dollar signing, we wouldnt be getting our asses beat.

yes, there's a difference... u say you're embarassed to be a Yankee fan... then why continue to follow the team? that's bandwagonism at its best dude... real fans stick by the team regardless if they're playing like crap or not... i'm not jumping ship here, just stating the concerns i have over how they're playing... there is a difference there... i ain't trying to say you're not a true fan but to constantly complain about how Cashman built this team when you were probably on the underwear throwing train at the time guys like Teix, CC & AJB were signed is silly... i hear it every year from fans... they laud the moves when they're made & then kill the GM after the fact if they don't meet their expectations... shouldn't we be holding the players themselves accountable for not performing? does the GM take the AB's for these guys? just checking.

IMO there's something wrong w/this team & it's NOT because they're lacking talent or how the team is built... on paper they look very well balanced & very well stacked offensively & pitching wise... IMO the problem stems from some deeper intangible factor... perhaps a lack of leadership... perhaps a lack of motivation... whatever it is, these guys are playing like they don't even care... falling asleep in big situations during games... making silly defensive errors in the field that no major leaguer should be making... not hustling on the basepaths... this is not the fault of the GM... the players have to be held accountable at some point, & so does the Manager... it's his job to motivate these guys to play at their best... the GM can only do so much.

The GM built a $200 million team filled with weaknesses. We missed the playoffs last year with the same way we're playing this year. How can the GM not be blamed? Is Isiah exonerated because his players sucked? He brought in the players, so it was mostly his fault for assembling an awful team. The players failed, yes, but so did he in acquiring them. Cashman isn't on Isiah-level as far as a GM but crapping the bed every year with a blank check to get anyone he wants in a league with no salary cap is unacceptable. Cashman hasn't built a gritty, never-say-die NY style team. He has built a team of big-names worried about themselves first and their team second. I wish it was that easy to build a team. Just buy every good-great player on the market and stick him in there. But you have to evaluate if they will fit chemistry wise and fit your teams' playing style before you do anything. Building a solid team from top all the way to the bottom is much, much harder than building an underachieving team of 25 filled with 4 or 5 great players.

Yeah, enough of the pity party stuff for Cashman. Duke gets paid millions of dollars and has unlimited resources at his disposal --- sorry if I'm not tripping over myself to set up a charity for him. He's getting outworked and outperformed by other GM's, BTW, if anybody cares.

Yanks are reminding me of the Baltimore Orioles of the late 90s and to a certain extent the Yanks of the late 80s, early 90s --- a place players go to pick up a check. Not to win. While other teams develop their farm system, add gritty hustle players, and field complete teams --- the Yankees are content to win the P.R battles and make the splashier headlines.

Boston is playing big leagues and the Yanks are playing Rotisserie league. Does a smart organization give Carl Pavano 40 mil? Somebody needs to tell Cashman there is more to running a team than just looking at the back of player's baseball card and who had a career year heading into free agency.

comparing Isiah to Cashman is a joke... if you don't already know Cashman's track record i dunno what else to tell u... Cashman has had his share of busted acquisitions but tell me who you wanted over the guys we signed this offseason? did you want CC or not? did you want AJB or not? did you want Mark Tex or not? Cash got them all for you, & you're still complaining... a blind monkey can complain after the fact & pretend like he knew something wasn't gonna work but it's a far more difficult thing to know before the fact... Isiah's acquisitions have historically been ones frought w/huge question marks right from the get go... players who brought all kinds of baggage or questions about their health along w/them... he's historically given up a ton of our picks & young talent to get those players here also... tell me the last big time prospect that Cashman traded away that has come back to bite us in the ass later? if Cashman signs someone it's money... not your money, it's George's money... if baseball had a salary cap then you might have somewhat of an argument about his overspending on FA's, but it doesn't... the fact is he's been able to put together as good a team as could have been hoped for w/o having to give up most of his top young prospects over the years, & for that alone he deserves praise... i'm sick of repeating the same stuff but some of you guys seriously refuse to get the point... if u need to find a whipping boy to blame, blame the players first & foremost... they're the ones not getting the job done... period.

Zeke hasnt been as successful, true enough, but to compare them is a joke because Cashman doesnt have to deal with a salary cap and the restrictive NBA collective bargaining agreement when it comes to trades. Cashman has the wherewithal to continue to throw money at all of his mistakes.

Zeke could at least develop talent.

What talent has he developed when he was here? Frye sucked. Nate was Nate and will be the way he is under any coach. Lee, OK cool, but he would have developed under any coach, and Chandler barely played. They are all role players so far.

PS: Anyone embarrassed to be a Yankee fan needs to get a clue. They pay a lot of money to compete every year. Maybe they don't do the right things at times, and God knows I don't agree with a lot of their decisions, but what they do are not worthy of embarrassment. If they want to spend the money, and feel that's the best route for them to go, then do it.

Hopefully it will grow some fruits finally.

[Edited by - Allanfan20 on 28-04-2009 04:07 AM]

Posted by Allanfan20:

PS: Anyone embarrassed to be a Yankee fan needs to get a clue. They pay a lot of money to compete every year. Maybe they don't do the right things at times, and God knows I don't agree with a lot of their decisions, but what they do are not worthy of embarrassment. If they want to spend the money, and feel that's the best route for them to go, then do it.

Hopefully it will grow some fruits finally.

[Edited by - Allanfan20 on 28-04-2009 04:07 AM]

I don't know where you live but if you lived in Canada or the deep south (where I've been) and the GM turned your team into the laughingstock of the baseball world for the past 5 years, it's hard not to be embarrassed. I stick with the team and admit to being a fan even when I'm in a group where everyone else is laughing at them but it still sucks. I don't like being laughed at, especially when I believe the things the people who are doing the laughing are saying are true. When my best comeback is either, "Yeah, you're right" or "Yeah, but we used to do dominate the baseball world," it sucks.

Posted by sebstar:

Zeke hasnt been as successful, true enough, but to compare them is a joke because Cashman doesnt have to deal with a salary cap and the restrictive NBA collective bargaining agreement when it comes to trades. Cashman has the wherewithal to continue to throw money at all of his mistakes.

Zeke could at least develop talent.

Give Isiah no salary cap restrictions, and I do believe he could put together at least .550 teams that lose in the 1st round of the playoffs or just miss the playoffs like we've gotten the past 5 or so years from Cashman.

to be fair, over half the teams make the playoffs in the nba, compared to only 4 per league in the MLB. there are also twice as many players just on the big league team, and a whole minor league to run, different drafts versus just the two rounds of the nba (with isiah just giving away picks every year). comparing cashman to isiah is certainly unfair to cashman, i mean, lets get real. i don't think isiah made 1 good move, ever. ca$h has at least made some OK moves.

bonn, if you are ever "embarassed" again by the yanks just tell the people to kiss the rings baby, world's most winningest franchise.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by sebstar:

Zeke hasnt been as successful, true enough, but to compare them is a joke because Cashman doesnt have to deal with a salary cap and the restrictive NBA collective bargaining agreement when it comes to trades. Cashman has the wherewithal to continue to throw money at all of his mistakes.

Zeke could at least develop talent.

Give Isiah no salary cap restrictions, and I do believe he could put together at least .550 teams that lose in the 1st round of the playoffs or just miss the playoffs like we've gotten the past 5 or so years from Cashman.

definitely. He just would have kept spending and ballooning the payroll till he got it right.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Allanfan20:

PS: Anyone embarrassed to be a Yankee fan needs to get a clue. They pay a lot of money to compete every year. Maybe they don't do the right things at times, and God knows I don't agree with a lot of their decisions, but what they do are not worthy of embarrassment. If they want to spend the money, and feel that's the best route for them to go, then do it.

Hopefully it will grow some fruits finally.

[Edited by - Allanfan20 on 28-04-2009 04:07 AM]

I don't know where you live but if you lived in Canada or the deep south (where I've been) and the GM turned your team into the laughingstock of the baseball world for the past 5 years, it's hard not to be embarrassed. I stick with the team and admit to being a fan even when I'm in a group where everyone else is laughing at them but it still sucks. I don't like being laughed at, especially when I believe the things the people who are doing the laughing are saying are true. When my best comeback is either, "Yeah, you're right" or "Yeah, but we used to do dominate the baseball world," it sucks.

Who's laughing at the Yankees and who cares? Besides last year, they've won their division for every year. Maybe they didn't make it out of the first round, but they've still been competitive. The people laughing at them are the fans of teams pissed that they can't have their money.

Laughing stock = Isiah's Knicks.

Team most people envy but cover that up with jealously = Yankees.

And no, I'm not an apologist. Heck, I criticize the team just as much as I compliment them. With that said, you stand very much alone, as a Yankee fan, who's embarrassed of their team.

And what evidence does anyone have show that Isiah would be a good exec. under any conditions?

Lets see: Sexually harrassed employees and lost in lawsuits.

Criticized the white fan base at a point that he had no right to (No, I'm not being inconsistent with the race issue in any shape. I think racism sucks on all ends, so lets not turn it into a race issue.)

Hardly got any of his players to improve.

Couldn't get his team to win for crap both as a coach and an executive, and players quit on him very early in the season, normally.

Decent late round picks, HORRIBLE lottery pick.

HORRIBLE trades. HORRIBLE free agent signings.

Yeah you're right. Brian Cashman, who uses his recourses the best way he can, is right on par with Isiah, despite having 3 big time free agent signings.

Geeze. He has his faults, but to compare him to Isiah? Please.

Posted by Allanfan20:

And what evidence does anyone have show that Isiah would be a good exec. under any conditions?

Lets see: Sexually harrassed employees and lost in lawsuits.

Criticized the white fan base at a point that he had no right to (No, I'm not being inconsistent with the race issue in any shape. I think racism sucks on all ends, so lets not turn it into a race issue.)

Hardly got any of his players to improve.

Couldn't get his team to win for crap both as a coach and an executive, and players quit on him very early in the season, normally.

Decent late round picks, HORRIBLE lottery pick.

HORRIBLE trades. HORRIBLE free agent signings.

Yeah you're right. Brian Cashman, who uses his recourses the best way he can, is right on par with Isiah, despite having 3 big time free agent signings.

Geeze. He has his faults, but to compare him to Isiah? Please.

Not necessarily comparing him to Isiah, but if Cashman had to operate under the conditions that Isiah did he probably wouldnt be as successful. Cashman gave 40 mil to a complete bust in Pavano...117 mill to Giambi. Farnsworth, Randy Johnson, Igawa, Vazquez, Kevin Brown, Jared Wright...names off the top of my head. In the NBA the cap doesnt allow for that many mistakes, in addition you have the 15% trade rule which makes it hard to get out of bad deals.

The Knicks are still paying for Eddy Curry and Jeffries (even tho his deal was relatively minor). The Yankees arent punished for their bad deals outside of their bottom line. Cashman can keep spending until he gets it right, and just tuck away his bad deals. Zeke couldnt do that.

If there were a cap, there's no way any of those deals would have been made. It's a completely different business and there's no way you can say Cashman would have succeeded or not succeeded b/c there's completely different rules. This is how Cashman was brought up though. He had the owner who demanded that you go all out in pursueing whatever free agents so he did.

And yes, I agree, a lot of his free agent pitching decisions have been horrible, but Giambi had a good career with the Yanks. Not worth the money, but he was productive. Sheffield and Matsui too.

And no, like I said, he's not the greatest. But to say he'd be no better than the WORST and I mean the WORST executive in sports, is a little silly.

Posted by Allanfan20:

PS: Anyone embarrassed to be a Yankee fan needs to get a clue. They pay a lot of money to compete every year. Maybe they don't do the right things at times, and God knows I don't agree with a lot of their decisions, but what they do are not worthy of embarrassment. If they want to spend the money, and feel that's the best route for them to go, then do it.

Hopefully it will grow some fruits finally.

[Edited by - Allanfan20 on 28-04-2009 04:07 AM]

I just want you to understand that I am embarrassed by their laziness as an organization. They are getting outworked and other organizations are running circles around them in the brain trust dept.

The Yankees are relying far too heavily on their payroll advantage. Their on the field and off the field philosophy seems to be just to wait for the three run homer. They dont have any interest in putting together a balanced team, it seems --- their work begins and ends with signing the next big free agent. Its getting nauseating.

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by Allanfan20:

PS: Anyone embarrassed to be a Yankee fan needs to get a clue. They pay a lot of money to compete every year. Maybe they don't do the right things at times, and God knows I don't agree with a lot of their decisions, but what they do are not worthy of embarrassment. If they want to spend the money, and feel that's the best route for them to go, then do it.

Hopefully it will grow some fruits finally.

[Edited by - Allanfan20 on 28-04-2009 04:07 AM]

I just want you to understand that I am embarrassed by their laziness as an organization. They are getting outworked and other organizations are running circles around them in the brain trust dept.

The Yankees are relying far too heavily on their payroll advantage. Their on the field and off the field philosophy seems to be just to wait for the three run homer. They dont have any interest in putting together a balanced team, it seems --- their work begins and ends with signing the next big free agent. Its getting nauseating.

It's just not something to be embarrassed about, in my personal opinion. It's not the RIGHT way, but it's not something to cause embarrassment. It's freaking sports. lol

And I agree, I noticed from the beginning of the season that we've been going back to nothing but home run ball, and that's not going to take us anywhere. I don't know when the Yankees are going to learn.

Posted by BigSm00th:

to be fair, over half the teams make the playoffs in the nba, compared to only 4 per league in the MLB. there are also twice as many players just on the big league team, and a whole minor league to run, different drafts versus just the two rounds of the nba (with isiah just giving away picks every year). comparing cashman to isiah is certainly unfair to cashman, i mean, lets get real. i don't think isiah made 1 good move, ever. ca$h has at least made some OK moves.

bonn, if you are ever "embarassed" again by the yanks just tell the people to kiss the rings baby, world's most winningest franchise.

no use trying to get Bonn to think in "fair" terms when it comes to the topic of Brian Cashman... the guy only looks at the fact that we haven't made it far in the playoffs the past 5 years & completely disregards the fact that this team has won more games this decade than any other... the fact that Cashman is the most successful GM in baseball is lost on Bonn & all the other Cashman critics, because they obviously think building championship teams is an easy thing to do.