Off Topic · Yankees Talk thread (page 50)

Maybe this article sheds some more light on the Joba situation and Mussina's role. I guess Kennedy would be a swing man or start the year in AAA? Or perhaps Kennedy splits a spot with Joba/Phil/Moose as those guys all will be limited innings wise. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. Honestly, I'd consider moving Moose to the pen.:

Yanks bank on Mussina
Friday, December 7, 2007

By PETE CALDERA
STAFF WRITER

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- When the subject is Joba Chamberlain, general manager Brian Cashman doesn't stray from his script.

"The plan is for Joba to go in the rotation," the Yankees' GM said. "We believe he has high-end capability as a starter."

When asked what factors might change that plan, Cashman said: "What's best for the team."

Cashman did not elaborate, but Chamberlain's fate could be tied to the performance of Mike Mussina, and possibly to Kyle Farnsworth. If Mussina is shaky as a fifth starter, and if Farnsworth fails in his setup role, Chamberlain might be asked to reprise his eighth-inning role to balance the staff.

"Moose is the X-factor," said one person familiar with the Yankees' thinking.

According to the source, Mussina -- who turns 39 on Saturday -- has been participating in a new weight-training and arm-strengthening program. The club also emphasized that Johnny Damon and Bobby Abreu should arrive at camp in better shape than they did last spring.

Abreu, who turns 34 in March, has hired a personal trainer. Damon turned 34 last month.

"We're going to do a better job this winter with all of our players, so we can hit the ground running in spring training," Cashman said, without delving into specifics of individual conditioning programs.

Cashman departed the Opryland Hotel having made only one minor deal at the winter meetings, which began amid expectation that the Yankees would land Johan Santana.

The Yankees might get back into the Santana discussion, but they'd probably also have to move a big-ticket contract (such as Damon's) in order to facilitate a deal.

"You find out what you can't do, essentially," Cashman said, speaking generally about his week.

In a swap of right-handers, Cashman received reliever Jonathan Albaladejo from Washington for Tyler Clippard. The groundwork has been set on other non-blockbuster deals, but "whether they ever get completed, I can't predict."

Cashman mentioned there were "limited choices in the relief market and almost no choices in the starter's market."

With Chamberlain in the starting rotation and Luis Vizcaino still on the open market, Cashman called his bullpen "an area of weakness right now" and "a work in progress.

"It's certainly an area we have to address," Cashman said, though the prices are steep.

Vizcaino wants Scott Linebrink money (four years, $19 million). The Pirates are seeking two blue chip prospects for lefty specialist Damaso Marte, and free agent left-handed reliever Ron Mahay is said to be looking for at least a three-year, $12 million deal.

Japanese left-hander Katsuhiko Maekawa, 29, might become of interest to the Yankees, though he is heavily on the Nationals' radar according to the Washington Post.

But in the absence of a reliable, veteran setup man, the Yankees are reserving the right to tell Chamberlain, at some point, "our club is better with you as a setup man."

For now, Chamberlain slots in as the No. 4 starter, behind Andy Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang and Phil Hughes. Mussina projects as the No. 5 starter, with Ian Kennedy in the wings.

"Mike Mussina has been a very big part of our plans over the years, and he's someone obviously that we're really counting on," Cashman said.

As a fifth starter, Mussina could potentially get one start off per month due to breaks in the schedule. Though he's been known to grumble at being taken out of his every-fifth-day routine, Mussina has acknowledged to associates that occasional rest could help his stamina in 2008.

Last year, Mussina went through a brutal August stretch and temporarily was knocked from the rotation. He did not start during the four-game AL Division Series loss to Cleveland.

But heading into this spring, "You would think that he would be one of [our] starters," manager Joe Girardi said. "And obviously ... you have to perform."

Based on his full 2007 season, "I don't think Mike Mussina has forgotten how to pitch," Girardi said. "I still think he can be successful."

1 article i read suggested that the Yankees could be trying to cut some payroll so they can make another run at Johan... if that was the case, why wouldn't they simply try to dump Damon's salary instead? Matsui brings in so much more in the way of marketing appeal & dollars from international markets that it would make up for whatever savings they'd get from letting him go i would imagine. i don't get that idea at all.

i know the Giants have said Cain & Lincecum are untouchable except for a young talent like Alex Rios... what if the Yankees were to offer up Matsui & 1 of their upper tier prospects, say either Kennedy, Horne or Sanchez, in exchange for 1 of those 2 kids? do u think Sabean would go for that idea?

Bonn, i know u mentioned wanting Doug M back... i think if the Yankees end up trading Damon or Matsui, then signing Doug on a cheap contract wouldn't be such a bad idea afterall... he could platoon w/Shelley Duncan... i don't really think Betemit at 1B is ideal... rather have him as our utility guy off the bench... Giambi could be the fulltime DH in that scenario.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-07-2007 11:50 PM]

ugh, PLEASE no Lowry or Sanchez for Matsui unless Lowry will be flipped in the Johan deal... that's the only way i'd be ok w/that deal... Lowry is nothing special & i'd much rather trade for Marte than Sanchez if we're looking for a lefty reliever.

if we want a guy to eat up innings in the middle of the rotation, just sign someone like Carlos Silva.

at this point it doesn't look like a Johan, Bedard, Kazmir or Haren deal is in the cards for the Yankees. BAL is not going to trade their ace to us unless we bowl them over w/a package of talent. same goes for OAK & TB. forget it, we have a better chance to get Johan than any of those guys, either via trade or via free agency, & the trade doesn't seem like it's going to happen.

i think we'd be better off signing an innings eater like a Carlos Silva at this point. Haren, Bedard & Kazmir are not realistic options for the Yankees to pursue because of their asking price, & unless MIN's demands come down it doesn't look like Johan will be traded here either.

Silva may be a #4 type starter, but the guy is a horse & can offset some of the concerns about extending the 3 kids past their pitch counts next season.

he actually had a lower WHIP than Kazmir & Pettitte last season. just something i think we ought to consider.


[Edited by - TMS on 12-08-2007 02:23 AM]

Posted by TMS:

Bonn, i know u mentioned wanting Doug M back... i think if the Yankees end up trading Damon or Matsui, then signing Doug on a cheap contract wouldn't be such a bad idea afterall... he could platoon w/Shelley Duncan... i don't really think Betemit at 1B is ideal... rather have him as our utility guy off the bench... Giambi could be the fulltime DH in that scenario.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-07-2007 11:50 PM]

I wouldn't say I really wanted him back. I just didn't understand the high negativity toward him from some posters. I'd rather get a big time upgrade at 1st base. I don't know who's available though and I know you can't address every weakness in one off-season. So I wouldn't mind having him back.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-08-2007 08:32 AM]

here's a list of available 1B free agents... not very enticing choices.

http://www.mlb4u.com/freeagency.php?field=position

Looks like Pavano is gonna agree to a buyout and accept an assignment to the minors.

Unfortunately we had to DFA Bronson Sardinha to make room for Pettitte....

that's too bad... i liked that kid... looked like he had a little potential... hopefully no one picks him up & he can rejoin the AAA affiliate

Posted by TMS:

1 article i read suggested that the Yankees could be trying to cut some payroll so they can make another run at Johan... if that was the case, why wouldn't they simply try to dump Damon's salary instead? Matsui brings in so much more in the way of marketing appeal & dollars from international markets that it would make up for whatever savings they'd get from letting him go i would imagine. i don't get that idea at all.

i know the Giants have said Cain & Lincecum are untouchable except for a young talent like Alex Rios... what if the Yankees were to offer up Matsui & 1 of their upper tier prospects, say either Kennedy, Horne or Sanchez, in exchange for 1 of those 2 kids? do u think Sabean would go for that idea?

yes I think they might. Was thinking the same thing. You figure they were the ones that reached out to the Yanks about Matsui, not vice versa, so you know SF wants him. But come on Sabean, you're not getting him for Noah Lowry. Come on dude. Lowry had a pretty nice year last season stats-wise but let's be honest, he's a junkball, put-the-ball-in-play type of lefty who I think would get absolutely pounded in the AL. No way you make that trade.

You wanna talk Jonathan Sanchez, OK, a little better stuff than Lowry. Although, the fastball's not really in the mid-90s Bonn - more in the 89-91 range with the occasional dial-up to 93, maybe 94 tops, but consistently upper 80s, low 90s. I do like him much better than Lowry though. Throws harder (basically a K an inning type) and he's a couple of yrs. younger than Lowry. And I also like that he's got experience as a starter and also out of the pen. But still, not enough straight up for Matsui.

I want this kid Lincecum. The only thing that scares me just a little is his thin frame (listed at 5'11", 170 lbs. but actually looks even smaller than that) and you gotta wonder how this kid will hold up over the long haul with a thin build like that (I mean look at the miles Clemens got out of his arm throughout his career especially at the back end - due primarily to his thick, sculpted body). But then again, guys like Pedro Martinez and Francisco Rodriguez aren't exactly bodybuilders out there and they've had fine careers as dominant power pitchers, so who knows. The kid does have an electric arm though, no doubt about it. Reminds me a lot of K-Rod with the windup, velocity and the hammer curveball. Probably has a slightly higher ceiling than Matt Cain, although Cain ain't to shabby himself. At 6'3", 235 lb. he reminds me a lot of Carlos Zambrano of the Cubs, physically and stuff-wise. And he's actually about 5 mons. younger than Lincecum.

So that's it. How bad do you want Matsui SF? It'll cost ya. We're not gonna just give him away for a bag of rocks like Lowry. You wanna talk trade, let's get serious. For Lincecum, I'd up the offer to include 2nd tier guys like Ian Kennedy, Alan Horne, Steven White, Jeff Marquez - maybe even 3 of those 4 along with Matsui, for Lincecum. I'd have to cut that package down slightly for Cain, but in good faith, I'd go Matsui, Kennedy and Horne for Cain. Why not? A husky kid who throws 96 mph sinkers. I like Cain a lot. Have a funny feeling Sabean won't budge on these two though. So we'll have to see how much the Giants really want Hideki.

Let me ask you this - would you do Matsui/Hughes for Lincecum? Don't tell me you haven't though about it. That's actually a pretty fair trade if you think about it. They get the power-hitting position player they want (and that they probably called up the Yanks and inquired about to begin with) and arguably one of if not the best pitching prospects in baseball in Phil Hughes to take Lincecum's spot in the rotation. Considering the fact that I think Hughes comes slightly overhyped, I'd really have to consider this if I was Cash. What do you think. Too much if you're the Yanks or is that a fair deal?

i like the matsui and one of the 2nd tier guys for matt cain. kennedy dominated the minors last year, i'd stay away from including him or hughes in a deal. give them somebody who was still in AA or AAA w/ matsui, maybe pay a little of matsui's contract, and i'd rather get back cain or lincecum when you consider cain's age and body type vs. lincecum.

i think it'd be hard enough to get Cain or Lincecum w/a Matsui/Kennedy package as it is... there's no way they take back a minor leaguer that hasn't even shown anything at the major league level yet for either of those 2 kids even if we ate a big chunk of Matsui's deal... he's got a limited shelf life now at 32 going on 33 & his range in the OF is dwindling, so pretty soon he'll have to be converted to a DH playing for an AL team.

That is a lot, you're right (although I'd do it pull the trigger on that deal) and Lincecum's physical make-up is a slight concern, but the bottom line is that I'm not sold on Hughes. For me, I need to see him throwing consistently 93-95 right out of the gate in spring training - WHICH IS WHAT WE WERE TOLD HE'S SUPPOSED TO THROW by every scout in America. If he's 90-91 mph then 88-90 just a few innings later before he even hits the 65 pitch mark (like he was most of the year) I think that's overrated. That's a dime a dozen in MLB. Hughes at 88-90 mph is nothing special and extremely hitable. His 90 mph fastball (with not a lot of movement I might add) is rather ordinary and not #1 type stuff in my book. That's why I might look to move him now while the stock is still reatively high before every GM in Baseball see this kid for what he might be - an average pitcher. Hey listen, the Yankees know this. Remember, there's a reason why Hughes was included in the Santana trade proposal and not Chamberlain. Chamberlain is that dominant stud with a golden arm you build a rotation around for years to come. Justin Verlander. Josh Beckett. Timmy Lincecum. Maybe even a Dellin Betances someday. I just don't see Hughes at 88-90 mph, getting smacked around by the Devil Rays at Yankee Stadium, in that category. No offense to the kid, he can help us if we wind up keeping him, no question in my mind, but more so in the middle of the rotation somewhere rather than as an opening day starter-type. I can't wait for spring training to see where Hughes' arm strength is really at. Again, I'm not one to cry leg injuries with this kid. Two things regarding the theory that his hammy and ankle injuries led to the decline in velocity: (1) spring training, trying to make the club, he was 90 mph with terrible control. Pre-injuries!!!! Saw it with my own eyes and remember being let down a little. (2) Why would the Yanks usher him right back out there if they didn't think he was 100% healthy? Would they really do that to a 20-year-old kid, their top pitching prospect, pennant race and all? Risk his health and future like that? I have trouble believing that.

Anyway, I bet you Sabean would say that Matsui and Hughes for Lincecum isn't enough. So, I really would look at Cain as the more realistic target. The kid's young (23 yrs. old), durable (he threw 200 innings last year, 190.2 the year before), only gave up 14 HRs in 200 IP, has given up only a total of 354 hits in 437 career innings pitched - VERY IMPRESSIVE for a power sinkerballer which would bode well for us, bringing him here to continue pitching on grass. He may not have the electric stuff Lincecum has, but he's damn good and could help us for years to come - years after Matsui retires.

If we did this, we would really need another power bat in the order, now preferably from the right side. Anyone got any ideas? Is Shelley Duncan really the guy?

And for the bullpen, I can't understand why Jeremy Affeldt hasn't been scooped up by Cashman already. He a relatively young (under 30), lefthanded reliever that throws consistently 91-92 and can dial it up to 95 mph when he needs to. Plus he's got recent post-season and world series experience with the Rockies last year. Effective against righthanders and lefties. No trade, no prospects to surrender. Just sign this guy already. He not gonna be sitting there forever - someone's gonna grab this guy. I like Damaso Marte also, moreso as a lefty specialist, but there's no was I let the Pirates rape me for this guy. Anyone know what they're asking for for him?

finestrq, great stuff all around.

tms, i agree with you about the package of matsui/prospect not being enough, if thats the case though, i wouldnt make the trade. i think cashman's M.O. this whole offseason has been that the yanks aren't going to rush into anything. they don't NEED to move matsui, so if it doesn't benefit them, i don't think they'll do it. that's why i think this is strictly speculation w/ regards to the giants trade.

finestrq, what about the games where hughes showed up (the 6 1/3 no-no bid against texas, the 3 scoreless innings in an elimination game out of the pen in the playoffs). most young kids get knocked around (look at cain and lincecum last year). i think hughes will win 13-15 games next yr, and i think cashman and yankee execs think the same or they would've dealt him for johan.

i also don't think anybody should sleep on kennedy. obviously joba is joba, and i think hughes will do well, but kennedy was a stud at USC, pitched well in his 3 apps this year (granted it was TB, @KC, and @TOR), but he still showed he can handle big league lineups and strike people out.

i agree with affeldt, cashman needs to get some legitimate arms in the bullpen. if he acquires another legit starter and can move joba back to the pen (as some articles have indicated, and i wouldn't mind for another yr), i'd be happy as well, but somethings gotta be done about the weak pen. enough is enough already, this has been a weakness for YEARS

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3147959

yanks close to signing latroy hawkins to a 1-year deal. lateral move, in my opinion. didn't we have this guy two years ago?

Big, i love Kennedy & i don't wanna give him up for anything less than a proven ace or a young stud in the making... i'd be perfectly happy holding onto that kid... i love the movement on his fastball... you don't have to throw in the mid 90s to get guys out in this league as long as you locate & have movement on your pitches, both of which Kennedy has.

as for Hughes, i think he was throwing in the 91-94 range in the latter part of the season, so it's clear to me that hammie was an issue... u can't get the proper drive off the mound if your legs aren't there... i think as long as he can get that big overhand curve over in the strikezone, then his velocity won't be as much of an issue... he's definitely not as dominant as Joba is, at least so far, but his minor league stats are damn impressive & stack up favorably to what Joba did, so i'm sure there's much better things in store from Phil Hughes.

looks like they're just trying to amass as many arms as possible for the bullpen next season... i'd rather they signed Dotel instead if they wanted a power righty arm, but i guess they didn't wanna sign him to the salary he was looking for... Hawkins has never impressed me tho.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-09-2007 1:32 PM]

The Yankees, rebuilding their setup corps, are close to signing free-agent right-hander LaTroy Hawkins to a one-year contract believed to be worth approximately $3.75 million, according to major-league sources.

1 year deal is solid- he was actually very, very good in Colorado last year...ERA+ of 140.

yeah but as we all know, NL pitching stats need to be taken w/a huge grain of salt... look at the season Rocket had last year for us when he pretty much dominated the NL lineups he faced a year earlier... i'm also very wary of another Jay Witasek type scenario... i don't see Hawkins as the type of player that will succeed in a big market... at least we knew what we would be getting out of Octavio Dotel.

on a 1 year deal i can't complain too much i guess... but he doesn't fix our setup man situation.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-09-2007 1:33 PM]

Posted by TMS:

yeah but as we all know, NL pitching stats need to be taken w/a huge grain of salt... look at the season Rocket had last year for us when he pretty much dominated the NL lineups he faced a year earlier... i'm also very wary of another Jay Witasek type scenario... i don't see Hawkins as the type of player that will succeed in a big market... at least we knew what we would be getting out of Octavio Dotel.

on a 1 year deal i can't complain too much i guess... but he doesn't fix our setup man situation.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-09-2007 1:33 PM]

Keep in mind, many of his successful years were with the Twins in the AL and the fact that he pitched well in a hitters park negates some of the NL effect.

I think he can probably be as good as Vizcaino who wanted 3-4 years and a lot more per year. This is very low risk because if Hawkins shits the bed the Yanks can eat his deal rather easily. Its really a smart move- there's no reason to invest too much into relievers who's perfomrances can vary greatly by year. Hawkins gives us a vet behind Mo while the kids develop.

Remember- no more Joe Torre latching on to one veteran and working him into submission no matter what.

any idea what Dotel was asking for? i haven't read anything on him this offseason... he woulda been a viable setup option for Mo.

Hawkins' days in MIN are long gone bro... he only had 2 dominating seasons for them & 1 other good year... the other 6 years he pitched in MIN were pretty horrendous... & the last time he pitched in the AL was a couple seasons ago when he had a 4.48 ERA for BAL... i really don't expect much at all other than him being a mopup guy for us to tell u the truth... career ERA of 4.69... he's really not that good.

Posted by TMS:

any idea what Dotel was asking for? i haven't read anything on him this offseason... he woulda been a viable setup option for Mo.

Hawkins' days in MIN are long gone bro... he only had 2 dominating seasons for them & 1 other good year... the other 6 years he pitched in MIN were pretty horrendous... & the last time he pitched in the AL was a couple seasons ago when he had a 4.48 ERA for BAL... i really don't expect much at all other than him being a mopup guy for us to tell u the truth... career ERA of 4.69... he's really not that good.

I'm not sure career ERA is that relevant since he sucked early in his career. His ERA is 3.23 in the last 7 years. I'm with VDESI here. I think this was a low risk signing and was a better choice than a multi-year deal for Viszcaino.