Off Topic · Yankees Talk thread (page 57)

Hawkins deserves props for coming through in a big spot & so does Bruney... ARod's blast was monstrous... i expect some retaliation for that plunk on ARod tomorrow night if the score isn't close.

About time already. Hawkins was instrumental last night in order to stop the bleeding

Back to sub .500s. The Yankees are the most frustrating team in professional sports. The Knicks just suck. There's no emotion there. The Yankees at least give a little hope each year, only to let you down.

how can the Yankees be more frustrating than the team w/the highest payroll in the NBA that's become the laughing stock of professional sports? at least the Yankees make the playoffs every year... oh right, i forgot money is supposed to buy championships.

Posted by TMS:

how can the Yankees be more frustrating than the team w/the highest payroll in the NBA that's become the laughing stock of professional sports? at least the Yankees make the playoffs every year... oh right, i forgot money is supposed to buy championships.

You're the only one who says that. And yet you keep saying it.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by TMS:

how can the Yankees be more frustrating than the team w/the highest payroll in the NBA that's become the laughing stock of professional sports? at least the Yankees make the playoffs every year... oh right, i forgot money is supposed to buy championships.

You're the only one who says that. And yet you keep saying it.

ROFL... don't make me post links of our discussions on the other forums Bonn... please.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by TMS:

how can the Yankees be more frustrating than the team w/the highest payroll in the NBA that's become the laughing stock of professional sports? at least the Yankees make the playoffs every year... oh right, i forgot money is supposed to buy championships.

You're the only one who says that. And yet you keep saying it.

ROFL... don't make me post links of our discussions on the other forums Bonn... please.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to make you do just that or I'm going to claim that you cannot do so.

so u claim i'm the one who stresses that the Yankees should be getting a lot more for the money they spend... i beg to differ... i guess you must have a short term memory if you don't think ur comments reflect the reverse of what you're claiming:

Bonn1997 Posted: Apr 11 2008, 11:43 AM

The goal is still to win the world series, right? (not just to win 92 and make it to the 1st round--we've done that all decade!)

(TMS @ Apr 14 2008, 03:25 PM)

the point is that any team in baseball can potentially choke during a short postseason series... that's the nature of the game of baseball, it's a game based on failure... u'r wasting ur time stressing over these things... there's also cases where a team catches fire all of a sudden & pulls off a stretch of W's in the playoffs where they didn't look nearly as good during the regular season as well... it's a game of streaks w/the hottest team winning out in some cases & not necessarily always the best team on paper.

Bonn1997 Posted: Apr 14 2008, 02:41 PM

The point is that with the team's pitching as mediocre as it is, they needed to put together one of the best offensive lineups in the history of the game--like the 98 Yankees you mentioned earlier. (Or they needed to put together a stronger pitching staff. Or they needed to at least explain why they get so little out of the huge money they spend.)

TMS Posted: Apr 14 2008, 05:03 PM

funny that you would use that reference to the 98 team because on paper this current offensive lineup is superior to that team's IMO... like i said, it can all look great & rosy on paper but it all depends on how they're playing going into the playoffs... last time i checked the playoffs are a long ways away... look at that stacked DET lineup, does anyone think that team won't right the ship before the season's over? that doesn't make them an automatic shoe in to win the WS tho, it's all about who's hot at the right time & who's not... look at last year's Rockies team... they were nowhere near the most stacked lineup or pitching staff in baseball, yet they rode the wave of their momentum straight to the WS & then completely collapsed when they got there... it can happen to any team no matter how much money you spend putting the roster together... money doesn't buy championships, as we've all seen over the past several years.

Bonn1997 Posted: Apr 17 2008, 03:34 AM

So if this team had 9 Albert Pujols in the lineup, they wouldn't be less likely to choke in the playoffs? Now, that's a huge exaggeration but surely the better the hitters you get, the less likely they are to disappoint you in any 7 game stretch, including the playoffs.

TMS Posted: Apr 19 2008, 11:16 PM

the Yankees have had 1 of the most potent lineups on paper for the past few years... as you've seen, the best looking lineup on paper doesn't always cut the mustard, sometimes it's the hottest team going in that's playing the best baseball... if anyone claims to have projected the Rockies to go to the WS last year w/that lineup they're talking out of their buttholes.

i keep telling u there's just no way to predict how the team is going to perform in the playoffs so there's no use in stressing over it... i don't know what you expect to get out of the team's expenditures, but WS championships just can't be bought w/money... if following this team for the past few years hasn't taught you that, i don't know what else to tell u.

Bonn1997 Posted: Apr 19 2008, 09:52 PM

When you have the most expensive team in all of professional sports, you should be able to build for the future and win in the present simultaneously. No excuses.

TMS Posted: Apr 19 2008, 11:19 PM

usually the most expensive team entails having a team of veteran stars... the thought of rebuilding while fielding a team that wins now does not necessarily go hand in hand like u seem to be suggesting.

Bonn1997 Posted: Apr 20 2008, 05:18 AM

You can't have some veterans on the team and rebuild? I don't get it. Who better teach the young kids than the veterans? Also, having veterans would ensure that we don't bring the kids up to the majors before they're ready--something the Yankees should be more concerned about than they are.

TMS Posted: Apr 20 2008, 10:30 PM

re-read what i wrote... i said the 2 don't necessarily go hand in hand... the way you make it sound, if the Yankees can't rebuild while fielding a WS winning team at the same time they should be ashamed of themselves because of the amount of money they're spending on the payroll... where have u been the past several years that makes u think the biggest payroll in baseball should always win a championship while being able to rebuild on the fly? it hasn't happened for a while now... the '03 Marlins were the last team i can think of that were able to do it, & they haven't been back to the WS since, & their payroll wasn't anywhere near what the big market team payrolls were that year... i keep telling u it's not about the money you spend as much as it is about which team is playing the best baseball at the end of the season & into the playoffs... having a high payroll increases your chances to succeed but it doesn't mean you necessarily will... if u're going to commit to a rebuild then you're gonna have some bumps in the road dealing w/the rooks & their growing pains... the payroll is what it is because of all the guaranteed money that's tied up in guys like Damon, Giambi, Farns, Moose, etc. who aren't contributing much to the team's success... there's nothing anyone can do about that now but wait out the year & clear that money off the payroll, after which there will be spots opening up for younger guys to fill.

Bonn1997 Posted: Apr 20 2008, 11:23 PM

Of course you're not gonna win the WS every year even if you spend a lot of money. But would it be possible to get less for the money spent than the Yankees have over the past 7 years?

TMS Posted: Apr 20 2008, 11:46 PM

i dunno, maybe ask the Dodgers, Giants, Mets & all the other big market teams other than the Red Sox how much returns they've had on the money they've spent over that span? at least the Yankees made it to the playoffs every year & to 2 WS over that span... payroll doesn't necessitate championships in this game.

Bonn1997 Posted: Apr 21 2008, 04:31 AM

Those teams spend far less than the Yankees. (And the Red Sox have won 2 WS over that span anyway.) Eventually it reaches a point where you have to decide that the people making decisions in this organization don't know what they're doing.

TMS Posted: Apr 23 2008, 03:02 AM

so what exactly are you saying here? that making the playoffs every year & 2 WS appearances over a 7 year span, not to mention leading the league in attendance & generated revenue just about everyone of those years, denotes the people running this franchise have no clue what they're doing because of the money this team has spent on the payroll? so you think we should have at least 1 if not 2 WS championships under our belt in order to deem the money as well spent & nothing else is acceptable?

in '01 they were in the bottom of the 9th in game 7 vs. the D'Backs with the lead & Mo coughed it up... so that in your mind is Cashman's fault for not spending the team's money wisely? should he have had a better closer on they payroll ready to bring in to take Mo's place in that situation? in '03 the team got beat by great pitching by Beckett, Penny, Dontrelle & Pavano (all of whom were acquired via trade as minor leaguers or homegrown talent) & very timely hitting & superb defensive execution by a hot, young Marlins' team, a team that had a payroll not even in the same stratosphere as the Yankees had... teams like the Marlins, Angels, White Sox & Cardinals didn't win their championships by having the biggest payrolls, they won by playing the best baseball when it counted the most... it's not rocket science at work here.

i have no problem faulting Cashman for throwing bad money at guys like Igawa, Moose (2nd contract), Farnsworth, Contreras, Karsay, Pavano, & others who haven't helped this team improve in the past, but to judge the guy as completely inept & incompetent is ridiculous... the guy has multiple championship rings on his finger & was at the forefront in negotiations to bring in veteran guys who have helped this team be successful over the years like Tino, Nellie, Stanton, Knoblauch, Rocket, El Duque, Matsui, Abreu, Pettitte, Brosius, Boomer Wells, the list goes on, not to mention giving guys like Wang, Cano & Melky a shot to prove what they could do in this league & being smart enough to hold onto most of the prospects that have been worth holding onto since he took over the reigns as Yankees GM... to think he made a huge mistake in not trading Hughes & Kennedy for Johan at this early stage in the season is rushing to judgement on something that won't be able to be judged for another couple years at the earliest, & then there's all the young talent he's helped to acquire to restock our once barren farm system over the past few years with trades of veterans like Randy Johnson... seems to me that Cashman is pretty universally acknowledged by people working in this game both in upper management as well as in the media as 1 of the better GM's in the game... the most any GM can possibly do is put a good team together on paper & let the chips fall where they may... he can't make these guys perform & he can't make any managerial decisions for this team... that's on the players & coaches... most fans of baseball realize this.

[Edited by - TMS on 04-26-2008 6:20 PM]

Now you're changing the parameters of the discussion. Should they be getting "a lot" for the money they spend? Of course! Otherwise, there'd be no reason to spend the money! Would you spend a lot of money on a home that didn't offer a lot to you?

stop being so vague... you kill me w/your ambiguous statements sometimes... what does "a lot" mean to you? stop giving yourself an out everytime you enter into a discussion... if you don't expect WS championships but aren't happy w/just making the playoffs, then what do you want? what else do you expect this team to have achieved over the past few years for the money they've spent other than winning championships? what difference does it make if they get eliminated in the 1st round or the LCS? they've either gotten eliminated in the 1st round, the LCS or have lost the WS since their last championship in '00, but you claim this team should have gotten more for their monetary investments... the only way you get more is to win championships, but now you're claiming you don't necessarily expect that either... so basically you don't even have a position on this issue, unless i'm missing something here.

i also love how you keep saying the people running this franchise have no idea what they're doing as if you have better solutions... so it would have been the wise choice to mortgage the future, give up 2 of your top pitching prospects AND shell out a 6 year humongous contract extension for a starting ace when history's already shown that contracts of that nature rarely if ever work out in favor of the team paying the fare?... what are your solutions that make Cashman's moves so inept & incompetent? who would you have signed other than Johnny Damon, Hideki Matsui or Jason Giambi when they came to NY? would you have made the tough decision not to give Mariano & Jorge contract extensions in the offseason & instead go with youth? would you have committed to a full rebuild & trimmed payroll when your boss demanded from you a team that would contend year after year? would you have been smart enough to see that Igawa, Contreras & Pavano would've been complete busts in NY before the fact? i highly doubt it... not many people were calling Cashman an idiot when he made those moves, some of them just didn't work out... it happens to every GM in baseball... they also make very good moves like the ones i've already outlined for you in past posts, but of course those fail to enter into your factoring in judging Cashman's performance because in your eyes this team's season is already on the brink of collapse even though they're only 3 games out of 1st place in the loss column in the first month of the season.

then you make ridiculous statements like the Yankees are the most frustrating franchise in sports when they make the playoffs every year... my God dude, u can't determine results in the playoffs by how much you spend on the roster... once u get to the playoffs it's anyone's game... if you've been watching baseball for as long as you claim you should have realized this a while ago.

stop being so vague... you kill me w/your ambiguous statements sometimes... what does "a lot" mean to you?

You used the term "a lot" first (when you mentioned whether they should be getting "a lot more" in your previous post.) That's why I used it. I'd expect at least a couple of trips to the world series and one or maybe two championships *each decade* when you spend this much money. (You made it sound like I expected it every year, which couldn't be further from the truth.) What would I have done? I'd always be somewhere in between the extremes the Yankees have been in from either never to always trading their young kids. If you want more specific answers on who I would have signed, please post the FA lists for each off-season.

RE: a 6 yr Johan deal: A 6 year $150 mil deal with a young Cy Young pitcher that ends when he is 35 is no more risky and makes more sense than a 10 year $300 mil deal with a position player that ends when he's 43.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 04-27-2008 9:51 PM]

Posted by Bonn1997:
I'd expect at least a couple of trips to the world series and one or maybe two championships *each decade* when you spend this much money.

'01 WS game 7 w/the lead in the bottom of the 9th w/Mo on the mound

'03 WS eliminated in 6 games by a young FLA Marlins team w/excellent starting pitching that was either home grown talent or traded for while they were minor leaguers

that right there equates to 2 WS appearances in the past decade... if you wanna count the ALCS loss to the Red Sox in '04 when they completely collapsed after getting out to a 3-0 lead, that could well have been a 3rd.

if you're in agreement that WS championships can't be bought w/money, i don't see where you argument is... the Yanks have met all your claimed expectations other than winning those titles.

bonn are you george steinbrenner? unless you are cutting the check i don't see why the amount of money spent is of your concern.

Posted by Bonn1997:
What would I have done? I'd always be somewhere in between the extremes the Yankees have been in from either never to always trading their young kids. If you want more specific answers on who I would have signed, please post the FA lists for each off-season.

hindsight GMing is very easy Bonn... anyone can do it... quite a different thing to decide on what moves are the best ones to make before the fact & having them come to fruition... the point i was making was that many of the more significant moves Cashman made were widely hailed as good decisions to make when he made them... some of them worked out, some of them didn't, & still others have a long ways to be determined yet... everyone's had 1 or 2 moves they killed right from the start, including me (i hated giving Moose his contract extension from the get go & his signing of LaTroy Hawkins made me wanna hurl), but i have a hard time believing you were against making the trade for Randy Johnson, signing Jason Giambi or Mike Mussina on his 1st contract, giving Mariano & Jorge contract extensions, or even signing Carl Pavano & Jose Contreras when those moves went down... correct me if i'm wrong, i don't wanna put words in your mouth, but i don't remember seeing any posts from you to the contrary.

so far i've seen you object to ARod's contract extension & the decision to pass on trading Hughes & Kennedy to have a shot at signing Johan to a 6 year monster deal before the fact... so based on those 2 decisions do you feel you could have done a better job of putting together the Yankee teams of the past decade than Cashman has? if ARod goes on to win multiple more MVP awards as a NY Yankee & helps them get to the WS again in the next 10 years, will that be a mistake on Cashman's part? so you think it woulda been a better idea to pass on ARod (quite possibly allowing him to go to 1 of our main rivals in the process), give up 2 of our top pitching prospects & sign Johan to a 6 year extension? you think that woulda guaranteed us some WS victories in the next several years? i don't know if you can assume that anymore than i can assume otherwise... you have to wait & see to judge that one... how about waiting more than 1 month of early season baseball to start coming up w/judgements 1 way or the other? is that fair or no?

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:
What would I have done? I'd always be somewhere in between the extremes the Yankees have been in from either never to always trading their young kids. If you want more specific answers on who I would have signed, please post the FA lists for each off-season.

hindsight GMing is very easy Bonn... anyone can do it... quite a different thing to decide on what moves are the best ones to make before the fact & having them come to fruition... the point i was making was that many of the more significant moves Cashman made were widely hailed as good decisions to make when he made them... some of them worked out, some of them didn't, & still others have a long ways to be determined yet... everyone's had 1 or 2 moves they killed right from the start, including me (i hated giving Moose his contract extension from the get go & his signing of LaTroy Hawkins made me wanna hurl), but i have a hard time believing you were against making the trade for Randy Johnson, signing Jason Giambi or Mike Mussina on his 1st contract, giving Mariano & Jorge contract extensions, or even signing Carl Pavano & Jose Contreras when those moves went down... correct me if i'm wrong, i don't wanna put words in your mouth, but i don't remember seeing any posts from you to the contrary.

so far i've seen you object to ARod's contract extension & the decision to pass on trading Hughes & Kennedy to have a shot at signing Johan to a 6 year monster deal before the fact... so based on those 2 decisions do you feel you could have done a better job of putting together the Yankee teams of the past decade than Cashman has? if ARod goes on to win multiple more MVP awards as a NY Yankee & helps them get to the WS again in the next 10 years, will that be a mistake on Cashman's part? so you think it woulda been a better idea to pass on ARod (quite possibly allowing him to go to 1 of our main rivals in the process), give up 2 of our top pitching prospects & sign Johan to a 6 year extension? you think that woulda guaranteed us some WS victories in the next several years? i don't know if you can assume that anymore than i can assume otherwise... you have to wait & see to judge that one... how about waiting more than 1 month of early season baseball to start coming up w/judgements 1 way or the other? is that fair or no?

I still would have kept A-Rod but I would have gotten Santana. (I did also say I wanted them to go after Texiera.) The Yankees should be using their financial advantage consistently when possible and should be building their farm system. It's always been one or the other. I don't get why you're asking me about specific players, though. I'm not a GM. I can spot a bad one but I wouldn't hire myself as Cashman's replacement. I'm busy enough with my own job.

You're willing to build in an excuse for every failure. That's cool--it probably makes you a passionate, enthusiastic fan. But you shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Yankee fans are have been disappointed with the direction of their team.

No judgments I've made are based on this one month of the season. I'm not saying anything new now that I didn't say before the season began.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 04-29-2008 07:12 AM]

all i see is you complaining about having so many overpaid aging vets on this team yet i don't see you proposing any better options than the direction Cashman decided to go in... building an excuse for every failure? no Bonn, it's called not pretending to know how to build a team better than a guy who's already proven himself & has a ton of cache around the league from GM's & owners alike.

you're pointing out the expenditures of cash the Yankees have spent yet you propose the Yankees should have not only re-signed A-Rod, but also made the trade & monetary investment for Johan AND go after Mark Teixeira in yet another trade where you would have had to give up some top prospects and another big contract extension... Teixeira will be a FA next year but you seem to think it woulda been a better choice to jump on him last offseason by giving away top young prospects, & then you tell me that most Yankee fans have been unhappy w/the direction this team has gone in the past several years & would like for the team to spend money & build their farm system at the same time... please tell me how you'd propose to build a good farm system while giving away all your best young talent for established veterans via trade at the same time... you must have some magical formula that you know about that no other GM in baseball does... you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here... you can't have every great player in the game & still expect to spend money responsibly at the same time for God's sakes... next year we will be rid of Giambi, Damon, Moose, Farnsworth, Hawkins, Abreu & Matsui's contracts... that's a ton of payroll being freed up to go after guys like Teixeira & Sabathia... Cashman has a plan going forward & it pretty much addresses everything you've been pining for in this thread.

the Yankees have committed to going back to the way they built those dynasty teams to begin with, by keeping their best young talent, building up a core, & investing their cash to fill in the holes... that's basically the same formula the Red Sox have been following to build their teams of late also... i dunno where you get this notion that the majority of fans are unhappy w/this... there must be alotta unhappy Yankee fans up in Toronto apparently.

[Edited by - TMS on 04-29-2008 11:08 AM]

i dunno where you get this notion that the majority of fans are unhappy w/this... there must be alotta unhappy Yankee fans up in Toronto apparently.

Yankee fans are below average in rankings of team satisfaction. I posted a thread on this in the zone forums. As to the other part, I have nothing against spending money so long as you do so wisely. The rest of what you said is just going to lead to redundant arguments where we repeat what we've said a thousand times each.

i repeat things cuz the stuff you say just doesn't make sense & you've failed to offer any better solutions... you wanna spend money wisely & build up the farm & yet u wanna go after the 3 main bignames available last offseason which woulda cost u huge money & just about all of our top young prospects to acquire... that's not even close to being realistic expectations.

Posted by TMS:

i repeat things cuz the stuff you say just doesn't make sense & you've failed to offer any better solutions... you wanna spend money wisely & build up the farm & yet u wanna go after the 3 main bignames available last offseason which woulda cost u huge money & just about all of our top young prospects to acquire... that's not even close to being realistic expectations.

I wanted to go after Texiera when he was an FA. Johan would have cost us only Hughes and Kennedy. I simply want a GM who can balance building the farm system and getting star players rather than always pursue only one of the two. Again, I have said I would NOT hire myself for the position. It needs to be someone whose only job for the past several years was following baseball and knows everything about all the players. You keep making this a Bonn vs. Cashman argument as if a poster criticizing a GM is implying that they themselves need to be the new GM. That's an awfully strange standard.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 04-29-2008 4:14 PM]

Back to .500! Time to bring out the champaign!

The Yankees can't afford to lose the games Wang pitches.