Off Topic · Yankees Talk thread (page 91)

Posted by jaydh:

I doubt those teams would trade their young aces for a guy at his lowest value.

The hope and thought is that Torre and Bowa would push for Cano, since both loved him in New York. I think if the Yanks throw in another midlevel prospect, that trade can get done. The Dodgers have alot of pitching in their system and I wouldn't be surprised if Torre didn't push for this to get done.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by jaydh:

I doubt those teams would trade their young aces for a guy at his lowest value.

The hope and thought is that Torre and Bowa would push for Cano, since both loved him in New York. I think if the Yanks throw in another midlevel prospect, that trade can get done. The Dodgers have alot of pitching in their system and I wouldn't be surprised if Torre didn't push for this to get done.

Next season the Dodgers will have Billingsley, Kuroda, Kershaw for their rotation. I don't think they are relying on Maddux, Lowe or Schmidt all that much for next season. Its very optimisitic to think the Dodgers would give up their best SP for Cano despite whatever relationship he has.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Do you think Grienke and Billingsley will be definite aces?

yes

Posted by jaydh:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by jaydh:

I doubt those teams would trade their young aces for a guy at his lowest value.

The hope and thought is that Torre and Bowa would push for Cano, since both loved him in New York. I think if the Yanks throw in another midlevel prospect, that trade can get done. The Dodgers have alot of pitching in their system and I wouldn't be surprised if Torre didn't push for this to get done.

Next season the Dodgers will have Billingsley, Kuroda, Kershaw for their rotation. I don't think they are relying on Maddux, Lowe or Schmidt all that much for next season. Its very optimisitic to think the Dodgers would give up their best SP for Cano despite whatever relationship he has.

Cano is no scrub prospect in his own right... it is optimistic but if you throw in another prospect like nyk mentioned i don't think it's that crazy an idea to kick around... much better than any Lastings Milledge trade ideas i've heard in the past few years, that's for sure.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by jaydh:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by jaydh:

I doubt those teams would trade their young aces for a guy at his lowest value.

The hope and thought is that Torre and Bowa would push for Cano, since both loved him in New York. I think if the Yanks throw in another midlevel prospect, that trade can get done. The Dodgers have alot of pitching in their system and I wouldn't be surprised if Torre didn't push for this to get done.

Next season the Dodgers will have Billingsley, Kuroda, Kershaw for their rotation. I don't think they are relying on Maddux, Lowe or Schmidt all that much for next season. Its very optimisitic to think the Dodgers would give up their best SP for Cano despite whatever relationship he has.

Cano is no scrub prospect in his own right... it is optimistic but if you throw in another prospect like nyk mentioned i don't think it's that crazy an idea to kick around... much better than any Lastings Milledge trade ideas i've heard in the past few years, that's for sure.

He's no scrub, that is true, but when was the last time a young player fell off so much from his previous season. He is no longer a prospect. He is rumored to have attitude problems and has been benched for lack of hustle. Not a very desirable player for a 24yr old ace. Why bring up Lastings?....and the Mets would have to trade Reyes in order to get Santana too, right?

i bring up Lastings because i heard some absurd trade proposals being made by Mets fans in the past few years before u guys traded him... he was supposed to be your "can't miss Blue Chipper" just like Hughes was for us, remember? frankly i can't even believe u were able to get Ryan Church for him at that... & the Mets got Johan for a steal, i already congratulated u guys on that one... doesn't mean the Twins' GM isn't an idiot for giving away his stud ace for nothing prospects tho.

as for Robbie Cano, he's had 1 bad season in 4... when was the last time a young player fell off so much from his previous? ever check the back of your boy Carlos Beltran's baseball card brah? his 3rd season makes Cano's 2008 look pretty respectable, & you can spot some other years where his numbers took a big tumble as well... didn't seem to stop him from having a good career overall & getting paid a boatloada cash by your team, now did it?

& where do u get this stuff about Robbie's attitude problems? his criticism is that he lollygags it at times & forgets to hustle... there's nothing wrong w/his attitude in the clubhouse & he's not a showboater like Lastings Milledge was either... he's always been a good teammate from everything i've heard & read about him... ur kidding urself if u don't think the guy still has good trade value right now.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-19-2008 1:41 PM]

Posted by TMS:

i bring up Lastings because i heard some absurd trade proposals being made by Mets fans in the past few years before u guys traded him... he was supposed to be your "can't miss Blue Chipper" just like Hughes was for us, remember? frankly i can't even believe u were able to get Ryan Church for him at that... & the Mets got Johan for a steal, i already congratulated u guys on that one... doesn't mean the Twins' GM isn't an idiot for giving away his stud ace for nothing prospects tho.

Milledge will be a good hitter, his defense is putrid though. As far as santana, the twins got some quality prospects for him. Btw, Hughes has been great so far!

as for Robbie Cano, he's had 1 bad season in 4... when was the last time a young player fell off so much from his previous? ever check the back of your boy Carlos Beltran's baseball card brah? his 3rd season makes Cano's 2008 look pretty respectable, & you can spot some other years where his numbers took a big tumble as well... didn't seem to stop him from having a good career overall & getting paid a boatloada cash by your team, now did it?

not quite the same. Beltran switched teams/markets. It's a big difference going from Houston or KC to New York. It was a period of adjustment. Is Cano going through a period of adjustment? And Beltran got paid solely on what he proved in the playoffs, Cano hasn't done much in the playoffs.

& where do u get this stuff about Robbie's attitude problems? his criticism is that he lollygags it at times & forgets to hustle... there's nothing wrong w/his attitude in the clubhouse & he's not a showboater like Lastings Milledge was either... he's always been a good teammate from everything i've heard & read about him... ur kidding urself if u don't think the guy still has good trade value right now.

I was just going off the attitude problems from stuff I read. But I would think lack of hustle and lollygagging would be bad for chemistry. He has value, but having a .264avg and SUB .700OPS this year is not going to net someone like Billingsley especially when the Dodgers need him for their rotation of the future. You may get prospects who haven't proven themselves in the majors and have high ceilings, but not a young ace already in the majors.

not quite the same. Beltran switched teams/markets. It's a big difference going from Houston or KC to New York. It was a period of adjustment. Is Cano going through a period of adjustment? And Beltran got paid solely on what he proved in the playoffs, Cano hasn't done much in the playoffs.

i was talking about his 3rd year in the majors in KC where he had a severe dropoff from his 2nd year stats... what's the market he played in got to do w/this anyway? Robbie's been playing in NY since he came up, does that mean his stats mean more than any other young player coming up someplace else?... if u thought Robbie Cano was gonna hit .340 every year just cuz he did it once, u're kidding urself... that goes for every young player out there, including Billingsley... these kids are gonna have their ups & downs but overall i would say Cano's value is still high even w/the year he just had... what on Earth are you talking about we can only get "unproven" prospects for him? u telling me Robbie Cano's an unproven player at this point you gotta be kiddin me... even if we were to talk about trades for proven major league Allstar calibre talent at this point in a trade names like Robbie Cano wouldn't be out of the question to be talked about from the Yankees' side... u say nothing prospects like Lastings Milledge will be good hitters but consider Cano to be an unproven? that's pretty damn funny... btw, the guy's 25 years old... let's not make him out to be some 10 year vet, ok? even vets have off years.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-19-2008 9:11 PM]

Posted by TMS:

not quite the same. Beltran switched teams/markets. It's a big difference going from Houston or KC to New York. It was a period of adjustment. Is Cano going through a period of adjustment? And Beltran got paid solely on what he proved in the playoffs, Cano hasn't done much in the playoffs.

i was talking about his 3rd year in the majors in KC where he had a severe dropoff from his 2nd year stats... what's the market he played in got to do w/this anyway? Robbie's been playing in NY since he came up, does that mean his stats mean more than any other young player coming up someplace else?... if u thought Robbie Cano was gonna hit .340 every year just cuz he did it once, u're kidding urself... that goes for every young player out there, including Billingsley... these kids are gonna have their ups & downs but overall i would say Cano's value is still high even w/the year he just had... what on Earth are you talking about we can only get "unproven" prospects for him? u telling me Robbie Cano's an unproven player at this point you gotta be kiddin me... even if we were to talk about trades for proven major league Allstar calibre talent at this point in a trade names like Robbie Cano wouldn't be out of the question to be talked about from the Yankees' side... u say nothing prospects like Lastings Milledge will be good hitters but consider Cano to be an unproven? that's pretty damn funny... btw, the guy's 25 years old... let's not make him out to be some 10 year vet, ok? even vets have off years.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-19-2008 9:11 PM]

Yeah agreed. This is a guy (Cano) who hits 3rd on most teams. Even after the sub-par year (which isn't terrible by the way. Will wind up hitting .265-.270 w/ 14-16 HRs & above average defense. It's not like he hit .220 this year or something. And I like the Beltran comparison a lot. Not only his 3rd season - which appeared to be marred by injuries - how 'bout Carlos' 2005 year, his first with the Mets: 151 games, .266, 16 HRs. Like Cano, not terrible, but not great either). Robbie will bounce back - he's too good a hitter. He might even hit 3 for us next year depending on who walks and who we bring in. I brought up trading Robbie because I feel we might have to explore this if free agency doesn't go as we planned. Strengthening the lineup is important (I think getting Texieria is just as important as getting CC Sabathia) but adding more pitching is the key if you ask me. I want to be able to match up against better pitching in the league on a daily basis from the middle of our rotation through the 5th starter, much better than we did this year. You're basically conceding games with guys like Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner and whoever else against the better clubs. Forget matching up against Josh Beckett for a sec. (which guys like Wang and Chamberlain certainly can do btw), I want to be able to go into Boston and beat Dice-K or Jon Lester 2-1, 3-2 next year without worrying that we've basically lost the matchup before the game even begins. Even Toronto has better pitching than us 1 through 5. A lot of teams do.

Keys to the off-season: Important to add CC, Mark Tex. and a secondary pitcher or two, either through FA or via trade. An additional right-handed power bat to balance the lineup a little better would be nice too. And I like the idea of adding FA Juan Cruz and his power arm to the bullpen. You do that and you don't have to worry as much that you switched Joba back into the rotation. I realize this is easier said than done but if they want to get back on the ball and start winning 95-100 ballgames again, this is what they have to do.


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-20-2008 05:25 AM]

well, Joba's gonna start the season in the bullpen again & who knows how that will progress again? he may be our setup man for a good chunk of the season once again... i like how Alfredo Aceves has looked since he got called up... he pitched a helluva game at Anaheim when i went to see the game, even the Angels' fans that were trashtalking me were impressed... maybe he'll factor into the equation next year in the starting rotation, who knows... i think our bullpen situation is the least of our worries... we got some capable arms out there w/Mo, Veras, Ramirez, Marte & likely Melancon next season... plus Joba like i said for at least the first month or so & maybe longer, who knows? he won't be able to pitch more than 140-150 innings next season at the most which was supposed to be this year's goal before he developed that tendinitis in his shoulder.

i think if we stock up our starting rotation w/CC & either Garland or Burnett, & re-sign Moose to be our #4 guy, we'll be in good shape... that'll give us a rotation of CC, Wang, Burnett/Garland, Moose & either Aceves, Hughes or Pettitte as our #5 (depending on what they decide to do about Andy)... or u can also sign someone like Oliver Perez, another lefty who's pitched pretty well in some games for the Mets & round out the bottom of the rotation that way too... i wouldn't mind any of those options personally... i just don't wanna see another year w/Wang being relied upon to be our ace... to me he's a #2 guy, not someone u want anchoring the staff.

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

not quite the same. Beltran switched teams/markets. It's a big difference going from Houston or KC to New York. It was a period of adjustment. Is Cano going through a period of adjustment? And Beltran got paid solely on what he proved in the playoffs, Cano hasn't done much in the playoffs.

i was talking about his 3rd year in the majors in KC where he had a severe dropoff from his 2nd year stats... what's the market he played in got to do w/this anyway? Robbie's been playing in NY since he came up, does that mean his stats mean more than any other young player coming up someplace else?... if u thought Robbie Cano was gonna hit .340 every year just cuz he did it once, u're kidding urself... that goes for every young player out there, including Billingsley... these kids are gonna have their ups & downs but overall i would say Cano's value is still high even w/the year he just had... what on Earth are you talking about we can only get "unproven" prospects for him? u telling me Robbie Cano's an unproven player at this point you gotta be kiddin me... even if we were to talk about trades for proven major league Allstar calibre talent at this point in a trade names like Robbie Cano wouldn't be out of the question to be talked about from the Yankees' side... u say nothing prospects like Lastings Milledge will be good hitters but consider Cano to be an unproven? that's pretty damn funny... btw, the guy's 25 years old... let's not make him out to be some 10 year vet, ok? even vets have off years.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-19-2008 9:11 PM]

Yeah agreed. This is a guy (Cano) who hits 3rd on most teams. Even after the sub-par year (which isn't terrible by the way. Will wind up hitting .265-.270 w/ 14-16 HRs & above average defense. It's not like he hit .220 this year or something. And I like the Beltran comparison a lot. Not only his 3rd season - which appeared to be marred by injuries - how 'bout Carlos' 2005 year, his first with the Mets: 151 games, .266, 16 HRs. Like Cano, not terrible, but not great either). Robbie will bounce back - he's too good a hitter. He might even hit 3 for us next year depending on who walks and who we bring in. I brought up trading Robbie because I feel we might have to explore this if free agency doesn't go as we planned. Strengthening the lineup is important (I think getting Texieria is just as important as getting CC Sabathia) but adding more pitching is the key if you ask me. I want to be able to match up against better pitching in the league on a daily basis from the middle of our rotation through the 5th starter, much better than we did this year. You're basically conceding games with guys like Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner and whoever else against the better clubs. Forget matching up against Josh Beckett for a sec. (which guys like Wang and Chamberlain certainly can do btw), I want to be able to go into Boston and beat Dice-K or Jon Lester 2-1, 3-2 next year without worrying that we've basically lost the matchup before the game even begins. Even Toronto has better pitching than us 1 through 5. A lot of teams do.

Keys to the off-season: Important to add CC, Mark Tex. and a secondary pitcher or two, either through FA or via trade. An additional right-handed power bat to balance the lineup a little better would be nice too. And I like the idea of adding FA Juan Cruz and his power arm to the bullpen. You do that and you don't have to worry as much that you switched Joba back into the rotation. I realize this is easier said than done but if they want to get back on the ball and start winning 95-100 ballgames again, this is what they have to do.


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-20-2008 05:25 AM]

A sub .700 OPS is terrible. It ranks you as low as probably around a .220 average (only OPS is a much more important statistic).

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

not quite the same. Beltran switched teams/markets. It's a big difference going from Houston or KC to New York. It was a period of adjustment. Is Cano going through a period of adjustment? And Beltran got paid solely on what he proved in the playoffs, Cano hasn't done much in the playoffs.

i was talking about his 3rd year in the majors in KC where he had a severe dropoff from his 2nd year stats... what's the market he played in got to do w/this anyway? Robbie's been playing in NY since he came up, does that mean his stats mean more than any other young player coming up someplace else?... if u thought Robbie Cano was gonna hit .340 every year just cuz he did it once, u're kidding urself... that goes for every young player out there, including Billingsley... these kids are gonna have their ups & downs but overall i would say Cano's value is still high even w/the year he just had... what on Earth are you talking about we can only get "unproven" prospects for him? u telling me Robbie Cano's an unproven player at this point you gotta be kiddin me... even if we were to talk about trades for proven major league Allstar calibre talent at this point in a trade names like Robbie Cano wouldn't be out of the question to be talked about from the Yankees' side... u say nothing prospects like Lastings Milledge will be good hitters but consider Cano to be an unproven? that's pretty damn funny... btw, the guy's 25 years old... let's not make him out to be some 10 year vet, ok? even vets have off years.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-19-2008 9:11 PM]

Yeah agreed. This is a guy (Cano) who hits 3rd on most teams. Even after the sub-par year (which isn't terrible by the way. Will wind up hitting .265-.270 w/ 14-16 HRs & above average defense. It's not like he hit .220 this year or something. And I like the Beltran comparison a lot. Not only his 3rd season - which appeared to be marred by injuries - how 'bout Carlos' 2005 year, his first with the Mets: 151 games, .266, 16 HRs. Like Cano, not terrible, but not great either). Robbie will bounce back - he's too good a hitter. He might even hit 3 for us next year depending on who walks and who we bring in. I brought up trading Robbie because I feel we might have to explore this if free agency doesn't go as we planned. Strengthening the lineup is important (I think getting Texieria is just as important as getting CC Sabathia) but adding more pitching is the key if you ask me. I want to be able to match up against better pitching in the league on a daily basis from the middle of our rotation through the 5th starter, much better than we did this year. You're basically conceding games with guys like Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner and whoever else against the better clubs. Forget matching up against Josh Beckett for a sec. (which guys like Wang and Chamberlain certainly can do btw), I want to be able to go into Boston and beat Dice-K or Jon Lester 2-1, 3-2 next year without worrying that we've basically lost the matchup before the game even begins. Even Toronto has better pitching than us 1 through 5. A lot of teams do.

Keys to the off-season: Important to add CC, Mark Tex. and a secondary pitcher or two, either through FA or via trade. An additional right-handed power bat to balance the lineup a little better would be nice too. And I like the idea of adding FA Juan Cruz and his power arm to the bullpen. You do that and you don't have to worry as much that you switched Joba back into the rotation. I realize this is easier said than done but if they want to get back on the ball and start winning 95-100 ballgames again, this is what they have to do.


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-20-2008 05:25 AM]

A sub .700 OPS is terrible. It ranks you as low as probably around a .220 average (only OPS is a much more important statistic).

Well I don't know what to tell ya my friend. We can compare and contrast and argue statistics all day long. Bottom line for me is, like most young players, Cano's obviously got some things to work on (take the walk, consistent effort & hustle, etc.), but to insinuate that he's not an effective offensive player (even this year which, statistically, was an off-year for him by a good margin) is really rediculous. When he's right, he's ripping line-drives all over the ballpark. The guy has tremendous value either to the Yankees staying in pinstripes or to other clubs that probably come calling this off-season. For example, we know Minnesota liked him and I bet we could've grabbed Johan for Cano and Kennedy (or even a lesser pitching prospect) and had called it a day. No Melky. No Hughes. Maybe even no Kennedy. If I'm not mistaken, that was one of the original Johan scenarios that was shot down by the Yankees almost immediately. Think for a sec. -- can you imagine Cano hitting on turf in a place like the Metrodome - what kind of numbers he could put up there? I would think .290/45 doubles would be a down year for him over there in that place, no?

Let's all focus on the real spectacle - the last game at Yankee Stadium tomorrow.

It will be a very emotional night for many, including me.

Posted by GKFv2:

Let's all focus on the real spectacle - the last game at Yankee Stadium tomorrow.

It will be a very emotional night for many, including me.

Me too. Can't wait!

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

not quite the same. Beltran switched teams/markets. It's a big difference going from Houston or KC to New York. It was a period of adjustment. Is Cano going through a period of adjustment? And Beltran got paid solely on what he proved in the playoffs, Cano hasn't done much in the playoffs.

i was talking about his 3rd year in the majors in KC where he had a severe dropoff from his 2nd year stats... what's the market he played in got to do w/this anyway? Robbie's been playing in NY since he came up, does that mean his stats mean more than any other young player coming up someplace else?... if u thought Robbie Cano was gonna hit .340 every year just cuz he did it once, u're kidding urself... that goes for every young player out there, including Billingsley... these kids are gonna have their ups & downs but overall i would say Cano's value is still high even w/the year he just had... what on Earth are you talking about we can only get "unproven" prospects for him? u telling me Robbie Cano's an unproven player at this point you gotta be kiddin me... even if we were to talk about trades for proven major league Allstar calibre talent at this point in a trade names like Robbie Cano wouldn't be out of the question to be talked about from the Yankees' side... u say nothing prospects like Lastings Milledge will be good hitters but consider Cano to be an unproven? that's pretty damn funny... btw, the guy's 25 years old... let's not make him out to be some 10 year vet, ok? even vets have off years.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-19-2008 9:11 PM]

Yeah agreed. This is a guy (Cano) who hits 3rd on most teams. Even after the sub-par year (which isn't terrible by the way. Will wind up hitting .265-.270 w/ 14-16 HRs & above average defense. It's not like he hit .220 this year or something. And I like the Beltran comparison a lot. Not only his 3rd season - which appeared to be marred by injuries - how 'bout Carlos' 2005 year, his first with the Mets: 151 games, .266, 16 HRs. Like Cano, not terrible, but not great either). Robbie will bounce back - he's too good a hitter. He might even hit 3 for us next year depending on who walks and who we bring in. I brought up trading Robbie because I feel we might have to explore this if free agency doesn't go as we planned. Strengthening the lineup is important (I think getting Texieria is just as important as getting CC Sabathia) but adding more pitching is the key if you ask me. I want to be able to match up against better pitching in the league on a daily basis from the middle of our rotation through the 5th starter, much better than we did this year. You're basically conceding games with guys like Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner and whoever else against the better clubs. Forget matching up against Josh Beckett for a sec. (which guys like Wang and Chamberlain certainly can do btw), I want to be able to go into Boston and beat Dice-K or Jon Lester 2-1, 3-2 next year without worrying that we've basically lost the matchup before the game even begins. Even Toronto has better pitching than us 1 through 5. A lot of teams do.

Keys to the off-season: Important to add CC, Mark Tex. and a secondary pitcher or two, either through FA or via trade. An additional right-handed power bat to balance the lineup a little better would be nice too. And I like the idea of adding FA Juan Cruz and his power arm to the bullpen. You do that and you don't have to worry as much that you switched Joba back into the rotation. I realize this is easier said than done but if they want to get back on the ball and start winning 95-100 ballgames again, this is what they have to do.


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-20-2008 05:25 AM]

A sub .700 OPS is terrible. It ranks you as low as probably around a .220 average (only OPS is a much more important statistic).

Well I don't know what to tell ya my friend. We can compare and contrast and argue statistics all day long. Bottom line for me is, like most young players, Cano's obviously got some things to work on (take the walk, consistent effort & hustle, etc.), but to insinuate that he's not an effective offensive player (even this year which, statistically, was an off-year for him by a good margin) is really rediculous. When he's right, he's ripping line-drives all over the ballpark. The guy has tremendous value either to the Yankees staying in pinstripes or to other clubs that probably come calling this off-season. For example, we know Minnesota liked him and I bet we could've grabbed Johan for Cano and Kennedy (or even a lesser pitching prospect) and had called it a day. No Melky. No Hughes. Maybe even no Kennedy. If I'm not mistaken, that was one of the original Johan scenarios that was shot down by the Yankees almost immediately. Think for a sec. -- can you imagine Cano hitting on turf in a place like the Metrodome - what kind of numbers he could put up there? I would think .290/45 doubles would be a down year for him over there in that place, no?

This year Cano was 132 out of 148 qualified MLB players in OPS. That basically means he was one of the least productive everyday players on offense in the game. That means he was definitely a liability. I'm not saying give up on him, but I think people who look at BA miss just how bad a year he had. That's mostly the media outlets' fault for obsessing over BA. Please don't remind me about how easily we could have gotten Johan. That's not gonna cheer me up after the season we all had to endure!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-21-2008 07:21 AM]

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by GKFv2:

Let's all focus on the real spectacle - the last game at Yankee Stadium tomorrow.

It will be a very emotional night for many, including me.

Me too. Can't wait!

i sorta wish that day would never come... but it's here & it's gonna be a sad day when i see a wrecking ball taken to the Stadium.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

not quite the same. Beltran switched teams/markets. It's a big difference going from Houston or KC to New York. It was a period of adjustment. Is Cano going through a period of adjustment? And Beltran got paid solely on what he proved in the playoffs, Cano hasn't done much in the playoffs.

i was talking about his 3rd year in the majors in KC where he had a severe dropoff from his 2nd year stats... what's the market he played in got to do w/this anyway? Robbie's been playing in NY since he came up, does that mean his stats mean more than any other young player coming up someplace else?... if u thought Robbie Cano was gonna hit .340 every year just cuz he did it once, u're kidding urself... that goes for every young player out there, including Billingsley... these kids are gonna have their ups & downs but overall i would say Cano's value is still high even w/the year he just had... what on Earth are you talking about we can only get "unproven" prospects for him? u telling me Robbie Cano's an unproven player at this point you gotta be kiddin me... even if we were to talk about trades for proven major league Allstar calibre talent at this point in a trade names like Robbie Cano wouldn't be out of the question to be talked about from the Yankees' side... u say nothing prospects like Lastings Milledge will be good hitters but consider Cano to be an unproven? that's pretty damn funny... btw, the guy's 25 years old... let's not make him out to be some 10 year vet, ok? even vets have off years.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-19-2008 9:11 PM]

Yeah agreed. This is a guy (Cano) who hits 3rd on most teams. Even after the sub-par year (which isn't terrible by the way. Will wind up hitting .265-.270 w/ 14-16 HRs & above average defense. It's not like he hit .220 this year or something. And I like the Beltran comparison a lot. Not only his 3rd season - which appeared to be marred by injuries - how 'bout Carlos' 2005 year, his first with the Mets: 151 games, .266, 16 HRs. Like Cano, not terrible, but not great either). Robbie will bounce back - he's too good a hitter. He might even hit 3 for us next year depending on who walks and who we bring in. I brought up trading Robbie because I feel we might have to explore this if free agency doesn't go as we planned. Strengthening the lineup is important (I think getting Texieria is just as important as getting CC Sabathia) but adding more pitching is the key if you ask me. I want to be able to match up against better pitching in the league on a daily basis from the middle of our rotation through the 5th starter, much better than we did this year. You're basically conceding games with guys like Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner and whoever else against the better clubs. Forget matching up against Josh Beckett for a sec. (which guys like Wang and Chamberlain certainly can do btw), I want to be able to go into Boston and beat Dice-K or Jon Lester 2-1, 3-2 next year without worrying that we've basically lost the matchup before the game even begins. Even Toronto has better pitching than us 1 through 5. A lot of teams do.

Keys to the off-season: Important to add CC, Mark Tex. and a secondary pitcher or two, either through FA or via trade. An additional right-handed power bat to balance the lineup a little better would be nice too. And I like the idea of adding FA Juan Cruz and his power arm to the bullpen. You do that and you don't have to worry as much that you switched Joba back into the rotation. I realize this is easier said than done but if they want to get back on the ball and start winning 95-100 ballgames again, this is what they have to do.


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-20-2008 05:25 AM]

A sub .700 OPS is terrible. It ranks you as low as probably around a .220 average (only OPS is a much more important statistic).

Well I don't know what to tell ya my friend. We can compare and contrast and argue statistics all day long. Bottom line for me is, like most young players, Cano's obviously got some things to work on (take the walk, consistent effort & hustle, etc.), but to insinuate that he's not an effective offensive player (even this year which, statistically, was an off-year for him by a good margin) is really rediculous. When he's right, he's ripping line-drives all over the ballpark. The guy has tremendous value either to the Yankees staying in pinstripes or to other clubs that probably come calling this off-season. For example, we know Minnesota liked him and I bet we could've grabbed Johan for Cano and Kennedy (or even a lesser pitching prospect) and had called it a day. No Melky. No Hughes. Maybe even no Kennedy. If I'm not mistaken, that was one of the original Johan scenarios that was shot down by the Yankees almost immediately. Think for a sec. -- can you imagine Cano hitting on turf in a place like the Metrodome - what kind of numbers he could put up there? I would think .290/45 doubles would be a down year for him over there in that place, no?

This year Cano was 132 out of 148 qualified MLB players in OPS. That basically means he was one of the least productive everyday players on offense in the game. That means he was definitely a liability. I'm not saying give up on him, but I think people who look at BA miss just how bad a year he had. That's mostly the media outlets' fault for obsessing over BA. Please don't remind me about how easily we could have gotten Johan. That's not gonna cheer me up after the season we all had to endure!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-21-2008 07:21 AM]

Bonn, not sure what u're trying to argue here... if u're trying to tell us how bad a season he had this year, i don't think anyone would argue w/u on that one... the question is if Cano still has value as a top young ML baseball player or not... my argument is he still has plenty of value & the Yankees would still probably be extremely hesitant to trade him away at all, & if they do it would have to be for premium value... if u don't believe that to be the case based on 1 bad season, considering how much of a fan for statistics & as much of an opponent of small sample sizes that you are, i dunno what to tell ya.

btw, Jacoby Ellsbury's OPS this year is .699... how many people here think the Red Sox would be looking to trade him away for anything less than premium ML talent? yeah, i didn't think so... if anyone doesn't think kids like Cano & Ellsbury have high value they don't watch too much baseball if u ask me.

I was arguing with finestrg, who thinks Cano had an effective season on offense.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

not quite the same. Beltran switched teams/markets. It's a big difference going from Houston or KC to New York. It was a period of adjustment. Is Cano going through a period of adjustment? And Beltran got paid solely on what he proved in the playoffs, Cano hasn't done much in the playoffs.

i was talking about his 3rd year in the majors in KC where he had a severe dropoff from his 2nd year stats... what's the market he played in got to do w/this anyway? Robbie's been playing in NY since he came up, does that mean his stats mean more than any other young player coming up someplace else?... if u thought Robbie Cano was gonna hit .340 every year just cuz he did it once, u're kidding urself... that goes for every young player out there, including Billingsley... these kids are gonna have their ups & downs but overall i would say Cano's value is still high even w/the year he just had... what on Earth are you talking about we can only get "unproven" prospects for him? u telling me Robbie Cano's an unproven player at this point you gotta be kiddin me... even if we were to talk about trades for proven major league Allstar calibre talent at this point in a trade names like Robbie Cano wouldn't be out of the question to be talked about from the Yankees' side... u say nothing prospects like Lastings Milledge will be good hitters but consider Cano to be an unproven? that's pretty damn funny... btw, the guy's 25 years old... let's not make him out to be some 10 year vet, ok? even vets have off years.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-19-2008 9:11 PM]

Yeah agreed. This is a guy (Cano) who hits 3rd on most teams. Even after the sub-par year (which isn't terrible by the way. Will wind up hitting .265-.270 w/ 14-16 HRs & above average defense. It's not like he hit .220 this year or something. And I like the Beltran comparison a lot. Not only his 3rd season - which appeared to be marred by injuries - how 'bout Carlos' 2005 year, his first with the Mets: 151 games, .266, 16 HRs. Like Cano, not terrible, but not great either). Robbie will bounce back - he's too good a hitter. He might even hit 3 for us next year depending on who walks and who we bring in. I brought up trading Robbie because I feel we might have to explore this if free agency doesn't go as we planned. Strengthening the lineup is important (I think getting Texieria is just as important as getting CC Sabathia) but adding more pitching is the key if you ask me. I want to be able to match up against better pitching in the league on a daily basis from the middle of our rotation through the 5th starter, much better than we did this year. You're basically conceding games with guys like Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner and whoever else against the better clubs. Forget matching up against Josh Beckett for a sec. (which guys like Wang and Chamberlain certainly can do btw), I want to be able to go into Boston and beat Dice-K or Jon Lester 2-1, 3-2 next year without worrying that we've basically lost the matchup before the game even begins. Even Toronto has better pitching than us 1 through 5. A lot of teams do.

Keys to the off-season: Important to add CC, Mark Tex. and a secondary pitcher or two, either through FA or via trade. An additional right-handed power bat to balance the lineup a little better would be nice too. And I like the idea of adding FA Juan Cruz and his power arm to the bullpen. You do that and you don't have to worry as much that you switched Joba back into the rotation. I realize this is easier said than done but if they want to get back on the ball and start winning 95-100 ballgames again, this is what they have to do.


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-20-2008 05:25 AM]

A sub .700 OPS is terrible. It ranks you as low as probably around a .220 average (only OPS is a much more important statistic).

Well I don't know what to tell ya my friend. We can compare and contrast and argue statistics all day long. Bottom line for me is, like most young players, Cano's obviously got some things to work on (take the walk, consistent effort & hustle, etc.), but to insinuate that he's not an effective offensive player (even this year which, statistically, was an off-year for him by a good margin) is really rediculous. When he's right, he's ripping line-drives all over the ballpark. The guy has tremendous value either to the Yankees staying in pinstripes or to other clubs that probably come calling this off-season. For example, we know Minnesota liked him and I bet we could've grabbed Johan for Cano and Kennedy (or even a lesser pitching prospect) and had called it a day. No Melky. No Hughes. Maybe even no Kennedy. If I'm not mistaken, that was one of the original Johan scenarios that was shot down by the Yankees almost immediately. Think for a sec. -- can you imagine Cano hitting on turf in a place like the Metrodome - what kind of numbers he could put up there? I would think .290/45 doubles would be a down year for him over there in that place, no?

This year Cano was 132 out of 148 qualified MLB players in OPS. That basically means he was one of the least productive everyday players on offense in the game. That means he was definitely a liability. I'm not saying give up on him, but I think people who look at BA miss just how bad a year he had. That's mostly the media outlets' fault for obsessing over BA. Please don't remind me about how easily we could have gotten Johan. That's not gonna cheer me up after the season we all had to endure!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-21-2008 07:21 AM]

Bonn, not sure what u're trying to argue here... if u're trying to tell us how bad a season he had this year, i don't think anyone would argue w/u on that one... the question is if Cano still has value as a top young ML baseball player or not... my argument is he still has plenty of value & the Yankees would still probably be extremely hesitant to trade him away at all, & if they do it would have to be for premium value... if u don't believe that to be the case based on 1 bad season, considering how much of a fan for statistics & as much of an opponent of small sample sizes that you are, i dunno what to tell ya.

btw, Jacoby Ellsbury's OPS this year is .699... how many people here think the Red Sox would be looking to trade him away for anything less than premium ML talent? yeah, i didn't think so... if anyone doesn't think kids like Cano & Ellsbury have high value they don't watch too much baseball if u ask me.

Yeah I don't know how much stock I'd put in OPS as a statistic. Not telling at all if you ask me, at least not in this case.

Like I said earlier, Robbie's had his problems this year (there was the perceived lack of hustle that was dealt with by Girardi the right way with the benching and the sit-down man to man recently) but, trust me, there's a reason why Cano's been a regular who plays almost everyday ever since his arrival a few seasons ago. He's well-regarded as one of the premier 2B talents in the game. How anyone can say otherwise with a straight face is really beyond me. Trust me, this off-season when the Yankees hold their internal meetings, this is how the discussion will go regarding Cano: "Hey, do we hit Robbie 3rd now because we didn't bring back Abreu?" or Cashman will come in one day and tell Hank & Hal, "look, I've got {fill in a young talented frontline pitcher} on the table for Robbie. Do I pull the trigger?" Never once will the conversation waver toward Cano being a reserve or not making the team. Those are thoughts that might surface when Melky Cabrera's name comes up in conversation, not Robbie's...

And Bonn, I wasn't trying to tell you Robbie had a good year by any stretch of the imagination - though it wasn't terrible - I told you, .265/30+ 2Bs/14, 15, HRs hitting 7th or 8th all year isn't terrible. That's what I said. "Not terrible." We all know he had a down year. He'd be the first one to tell you. But you come on here out of nowhere and try to tell us the guy's worthless. Come on now dog. That's rubbish.....


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-21-2008 10:29 AM]

actually it was jaydh who said Cano was worthless... or not worth anything more than unproven prospects i believe were his exact words... & i agree, that's complete & utter rubbish.

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

not quite the same. Beltran switched teams/markets. It's a big difference going from Houston or KC to New York. It was a period of adjustment. Is Cano going through a period of adjustment? And Beltran got paid solely on what he proved in the playoffs, Cano hasn't done much in the playoffs.

i was talking about his 3rd year in the majors in KC where he had a severe dropoff from his 2nd year stats... what's the market he played in got to do w/this anyway? Robbie's been playing in NY since he came up, does that mean his stats mean more than any other young player coming up someplace else?... if u thought Robbie Cano was gonna hit .340 every year just cuz he did it once, u're kidding urself... that goes for every young player out there, including Billingsley... these kids are gonna have their ups & downs but overall i would say Cano's value is still high even w/the year he just had... what on Earth are you talking about we can only get "unproven" prospects for him? u telling me Robbie Cano's an unproven player at this point you gotta be kiddin me... even if we were to talk about trades for proven major league Allstar calibre talent at this point in a trade names like Robbie Cano wouldn't be out of the question to be talked about from the Yankees' side... u say nothing prospects like Lastings Milledge will be good hitters but consider Cano to be an unproven? that's pretty damn funny... btw, the guy's 25 years old... let's not make him out to be some 10 year vet, ok? even vets have off years.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-19-2008 9:11 PM]

Yeah agreed. This is a guy (Cano) who hits 3rd on most teams. Even after the sub-par year (which isn't terrible by the way. Will wind up hitting .265-.270 w/ 14-16 HRs & above average defense. It's not like he hit .220 this year or something. And I like the Beltran comparison a lot. Not only his 3rd season - which appeared to be marred by injuries - how 'bout Carlos' 2005 year, his first with the Mets: 151 games, .266, 16 HRs. Like Cano, not terrible, but not great either). Robbie will bounce back - he's too good a hitter. He might even hit 3 for us next year depending on who walks and who we bring in. I brought up trading Robbie because I feel we might have to explore this if free agency doesn't go as we planned. Strengthening the lineup is important (I think getting Texieria is just as important as getting CC Sabathia) but adding more pitching is the key if you ask me. I want to be able to match up against better pitching in the league on a daily basis from the middle of our rotation through the 5th starter, much better than we did this year. You're basically conceding games with guys like Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner and whoever else against the better clubs. Forget matching up against Josh Beckett for a sec. (which guys like Wang and Chamberlain certainly can do btw), I want to be able to go into Boston and beat Dice-K or Jon Lester 2-1, 3-2 next year without worrying that we've basically lost the matchup before the game even begins. Even Toronto has better pitching than us 1 through 5. A lot of teams do.

Keys to the off-season: Important to add CC, Mark Tex. and a secondary pitcher or two, either through FA or via trade. An additional right-handed power bat to balance the lineup a little better would be nice too. And I like the idea of adding FA Juan Cruz and his power arm to the bullpen. You do that and you don't have to worry as much that you switched Joba back into the rotation. I realize this is easier said than done but if they want to get back on the ball and start winning 95-100 ballgames again, this is what they have to do.


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-20-2008 05:25 AM]

A sub .700 OPS is terrible. It ranks you as low as probably around a .220 average (only OPS is a much more important statistic).

Well I don't know what to tell ya my friend. We can compare and contrast and argue statistics all day long. Bottom line for me is, like most young players, Cano's obviously got some things to work on (take the walk, consistent effort & hustle, etc.), but to insinuate that he's not an effective offensive player (even this year which, statistically, was an off-year for him by a good margin) is really rediculous. When he's right, he's ripping line-drives all over the ballpark. The guy has tremendous value either to the Yankees staying in pinstripes or to other clubs that probably come calling this off-season. For example, we know Minnesota liked him and I bet we could've grabbed Johan for Cano and Kennedy (or even a lesser pitching prospect) and had called it a day. No Melky. No Hughes. Maybe even no Kennedy. If I'm not mistaken, that was one of the original Johan scenarios that was shot down by the Yankees almost immediately. Think for a sec. -- can you imagine Cano hitting on turf in a place like the Metrodome - what kind of numbers he could put up there? I would think .290/45 doubles would be a down year for him over there in that place, no?

This year Cano was 132 out of 148 qualified MLB players in OPS. That basically means he was one of the least productive everyday players on offense in the game. That means he was definitely a liability. I'm not saying give up on him, but I think people who look at BA miss just how bad a year he had. That's mostly the media outlets' fault for obsessing over BA. Please don't remind me about how easily we could have gotten Johan. That's not gonna cheer me up after the season we all had to endure!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-21-2008 07:21 AM]

Bonn, not sure what u're trying to argue here... if u're trying to tell us how bad a season he had this year, i don't think anyone would argue w/u on that one... the question is if Cano still has value as a top young ML baseball player or not... my argument is he still has plenty of value & the Yankees would still probably be extremely hesitant to trade him away at all, & if they do it would have to be for premium value... if u don't believe that to be the case based on 1 bad season, considering how much of a fan for statistics & as much of an opponent of small sample sizes that you are, i dunno what to tell ya.

btw, Jacoby Ellsbury's OPS this year is .699... how many people here think the Red Sox would be looking to trade him away for anything less than premium ML talent? yeah, i didn't think so... if anyone doesn't think kids like Cano & Ellsbury have high value they don't watch too much baseball if u ask me.

Yeah I don't know how much stock I'd put in OPS as a statistic. Not telling at all if you ask me, at least not in this case.

Like I said earlier, Robbie's had his problems this year (there was the perceived lack of hustle that was dealt with by Girardi the right way with the benching and the sit-down man to man recently) but, trust me, there's a reason why Cano's been a regular who plays almost everyday ever since his arrival a few seasons ago. He's well-regarded as one of the premier 2B talents in the game. How anyone can say otherwise with a straight face is really beyond me. Trust me, this off-season when the Yankees hold their internal meetings, this is how the discussion will go regarding Cano: "Hey, do we hit Robbie 3rd now because we didn't bring back Abreu?" or Cashman will come in one day and tell Hank & Hal, "look, I've got {fill in a young talented frontline pitcher} on the table for Robbie. Do I pull the trigger?" Never once will the conversation waver toward Cano being a reserve or not making the team. Those are thoughts that might surface when Melky Cabrera's name comes up in conversation, not Robbie's...

And Bonn, I wasn't trying to tell you Robbie had a good year by any stretch of the imagination - though it wasn't terrible - I told you, .265/30+ 2Bs/14, 15, HRs hitting 7th or 8th all year isn't terrible. That's what I said. "Not terrible." We all know he had a down year. He'd be the first one to tell you. But you come on here out of nowhere and try to tell us the guy's worthless. Come on now dog. That's rubbish.....


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-21-2008 10:29 AM]

The other possibility is that OPS is useful and your subjective impression is wrong. In Money Ball, the A's talk about how they built such good teams at low prices because they relied solely on OPS (especially on base percentage). Then all the other teams eventually caught on. There's no theoretical advantage to using batting average over on base or slugging percentage (or the composite OPS) either. BA ignores too many important aspects of offense. I don't know why every once in a while I feel compelled to try to inform people about whether they're looking at good stats or only the simplest stats, which are usually the ones shown on TV. But for some reason I do.