I don't know about Gardner. He blows offensively.
also, a kid like Austin Jackson needs to be seeing regular playing time, so having him on the bench is not a viable option for us... he'll be playing at AAA until he's ready to start for us (if he ever gets there)
i wouldn't mind seeing something like this next season:
Jeter SS (R)
Cano 2B (L)
ARod 3B (R)
Manny RF (R)
Texieria 1B (S)
Matsui DH (L)
Nady LF (R)
Jorge C (S)
Gardner CF (L)
(i think Cano should see much better pitches to hit higher up in the lineup bet. Jeter & ARod, so that should help w/his pitch selection issues, & having a slugger like Manny protecting ARod should definitely help him to relax as well)
Bench:
Kotsay OF
Molina C
Betemit IF
Christian OF
Ransom UT
Rotation:
Sabathia (L)
Wang (R)
Moose (R)
Garland (R) or Perez (L)
Aceves (R) or Hughes (R)
Bullpen:
Coke (L)
Ramirez (R)
Marte (L)
Veras (R)
Joba (R)
Rivera (R)
Posted by GKFv2:
I don't know about Gardner. He blows offensively.
he does, but if u have enough offense to compensate then his speed at the bottom of the lineup could be a nice asset... plus his range in CF is much better than anyone else we got.
Finestrg, just a little update on Andy... sounds to me like he wants to be back next year:
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/comments/p... Pettitte pitched with bad shoulder, wants to return
0 Comment
September 25
Newsday
"Andy Pettitte said it makes him feel "sick" to know the Yankees will miss the playoffs. He also stepped up to take blame for the team's failures, but Pettitte also admitted that he has been pitching with his left shoulder bothering him and he will be shut down rather than pitch Saturday.
"It's given me a little bit of trouble," Pettitte said of his shoulder.
Pettitte underwent an MRI during the last homestand, and it showed no structural damage. But he has thrown 204 innings, and there is no reason to push things now.
Pettitte, 36, is normally a strong second-half pitcher. This year, though, he went 10-7 with a 4.03 ERA in 20 starts before the All-Star break and 4-7 with a 5.35 ERA in 13 starts after.
When asked to evaluate what went wrong for this team, Pettitte said: "I just look at, the big thing was me personally. I just think I pitched terrible."
Pettitte will be a free agent after the season and has not definitively said he will pitch next year. However, he certainly sounds as if he wants to return. He has talked about wanting to pitch at the new Yankee Stadium.
"[The Yankees], they've pretty much let it be known they'd like to have me back," Pettitte said. "I want to try to make a quick decision. Hopefully I don't get home and scuffle with it."
Pettitte said he will pitch for the Yankees or nowhere: "I want to play here. I want to play here. We'll see what happens, but I want to play here."
Sidney Ponson will pitch Saturday"
Posted by TMS:
Posted by GKFv2:
I don't know about Gardner. He blows offensively.
he does, but if u have enough offense to compensate then his speed at the bottom of the lineup could be a nice asset... plus his range in CF is much better than anyone else we got.
Yea but the problem is we don't have enough offense right now and I don't think adding Texeira will allow us to put a .200 hitter in the lineup just because he's good defensively and has speed. I'd rather keep Damon if that's the case.
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by GKFv2:
I don't know about Gardner. He blows offensively.
he does, but if u have enough offense to compensate then his speed at the bottom of the lineup could be a nice asset... plus his range in CF is much better than anyone else we got.
Yea but the problem is we don't have enough offense right now and I don't think adding Texeira will allow us to put a .200 hitter in the lineup just because he's good defensively and has speed. I'd rather keep Damon if that's the case.
right, that's why i think we need to add at least 2 big bats to the lineup to replace Giambi & Abreu... Tex & Manny would be upgrades over both those guys... Gardner adds an element of speed that no other player has on this roster right now, moreso than Bobby, Damon, Jeter or Arod, cuz he can be a disruption on the basepaths & change the game from that perspective... i'd be fine w/him hitting at the bottom of the lineup as long as we can compensate for the lack of offense in other ways... anyways, Damon's presence makes Matsui & Nady's roles very unclear... he's no longer a viable option to play CF, which means u have 3 guys under contract who need time in LF next season... if i could choose i might be apt to trade Matsui & keep Damon to be our leadoff guy, but don't see many teams out there willing to give us much in a trade for a player coming off surgery... Damon's probably the more tradeable commodity, unless u wanna explore trading Nady away... i don't wanna see Damon or Matsui playing 1B either... i've had enough of defensive ineptitude at that position.
[Edited by - TMS on 09-25-2008 1:53 PM]
Manny? No...just no.
This guy would be a disgrace to the Yankees uniform. Stay away.
Speed is a nice little bonus but it's not gonna compensate for hitting .200. The fairest thing I could think of was to add every one of Gardner's SBs to his total bases. (That basically counts a single plus a stolen base the same as a double, for example.) That raises his OPS from .540 to .642, which is still really bad for someone at any position let alone an outfielder. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to using him as a 4th outfielder/pinch runner for a few months and seeing if he can improve his offense.
i'm working under the assumption he wouldn't be there long if he hit .200 for a prolonged period... anyway this is why i pick up a veteran like Mark Kotsay as a backup option.
[Edited by - TMS on 09-25-2008 2:45 PM]
Posted by GKFv2:
Manny? No...just no.
This guy would be a disgrace to the Yankees uniform. Stay away.
i understand ur trepidation on Manny, trust me... he worries me too... i just don't see the Yanks holding onto Bobby Abreu unless he comes at a fair discount... otherwise we need to explore offensive upgrades in the OF, & there aren't that many available in free agency.
Fellas I realize some of this stuff's against the grain, but this is what I'd do. Let me clarify a few things.
- I realize Pettitte might want to come back T (I read that same thing in today's paper). I appreciate that, I love the guy, but I feel like he's just doesn't have that much left to give. Doesn't throw as hard, cutter doesn't have the same bite... Just doesn't seem to be able to put batters away when he needs to anymore. Needs to reinvent himself like Moose has and I just don't know if that's possible. Moose's 2-seamer where he runs the ball back over the plate to lefties has really redefined him - he really resembles Greg Maddux a lot now. Plus, Mussina's secondary pitches are much better than Pettitte's (and Maddux's for that matter) - Moose has always had one of the better curveballs and sliders in the game. Hence, the successful season nearing age 40. And I think it will continue, if Maddux did it, Moose can do it - run the fastball just off the plate, hit corners and use those excellent secondary pitches. Maddux made a living with that formula for a long, long time. Andy's never been a true 95+ mph power pitcher but he does rely on power to get guys out. He's made a living on getting in righthander's kitchen's with that hard cutter 87, 88 mph with a straight fastball 90-91 along with the average show-me curveball and changeup. He can't really do that anymore. So what does he do now? Does he reinvent himself and completely change his approach becoming the next Jamie Moyer? Moose tweaked his approach quite subtly. Pettite suddenly turning into Jamie Moyer to me is a complete overhaul in approach and philosophy. I have trouble seeing that and I don't want to pay another $16 mil. to find out. Remember Al Leiter? Very similar to Pettitte stuff-wise and approach, Leiter had an even better arm. But when it was over it was over. That power/bust guys inside approach just didn't work anymore and Al hung it up. Don't mean to sound harsh, I love Pettitte to death and appreaciate everything the man's done for us, but there are better options available to us. Time to turn the page IMHO.
- I realize Matsui's making a lot of money and he probably will wind up in the starting line-up if he's healthy. If it was up to me though, he'd be a platoon guy (I want Nady in there most of the time but maybe he gets a blow against a tough righty every once in a while) and a guy I look to give a lot of time off as a regular in order to preserve him for the long grind of an entire season. If he's in there on a regular basis that most likely means Brett Gardner's out and I want Gardner playing everyday. But that's me. He'll start some, but I'm not sure he's at his best playing 162 ballgames anymore. Not sure that's even in his best interest anymore. Plus, having a bat like his off the bench half the time will be big - the Yanks were criticized at many times during the season for having a thin bench...
- Gardner's got to play. I realize he looks lost and overmatched at the plate right now but that element of speed he brings is really unbelieveable. Plus his defense is first rate. We're such a better team with him in there contributing - but he's got to get on base. That's why I really think it's important for him to put in some extra work this off-season to work on his hitting. You can't have a little guy like that swinging for the fences. His swing and approach at the plate looks all fouled up to me. But I think it could be corrected. I'd like to see him work on doing that in the off-season. Remember, this was a kid who was a .285-.300 hitter in the minors. It's not like he was never a decent hitter. Before he came up, I read somewhere that the only difference between he and Jacoby Ellsbury is about 3 inches... Show the Yankees you're committed. I'd volunteer to go to the Instructional League to work on my hitting if I were him. The Yanks wouldn't even have to tell me. He's fighting to stay in the show - he's got to do everything he can to prove he belongs. If he puts it together, he's a better all-around player than Melky Cabrera. Come on Brett, do what you have to do to remain, I'm dying to get my Brett Gardner jersey next year!
- And I didn't mean A-Jax should make the team right out of spring training. You're right TMS, he's got to play in the minors out of the gate and play everyday. But somewhere along the way, if one of our outfielders goes down and A-Jax is playing well in S.W.B. next year putting up decent numbers we could see him at some point. Not a stretch at all...
[Edited by - finestrg on 09-25-2008 6:36 PM]
Gardner is definitely a good hitter at the AAA level, but so was Melky... i do think he'll be better than what he showed this season, but don't ever expect his #'s to turn any heads... his strength was working counts to get on base, but being a rook he didn't get any close calls from the umps & he ended up taking a lot of K's this season looking from what i noticed... he needs to be a bit more aggressive & pick his spots where to take pitches, especially w/2 strikes... but i love the kid's grit & his scrappy style tho... i hope he can stick next season cuz that type of speed hasn't been present here since Soriano left.
as for Andy, i doubt he'd be signed at $16 mil type money... if anything, he'll come at around $11-$12 mil annually on a 1-2 yr. type deal, much in the same way Moose was signed in '07... pretty expensive for a #4 type starter absolutely, but i for one don't think Andy's washed up just yet... Al Leiter was a similar style pitcher, agreed, but Leiter never really threw that curve as much that Andy does now, he was pretty much a cutters & slider style pitcher throughout his career... if Andy can get to work on a better changeup over the offseason i think he can keep hitters off balance the way Moose did so effectively this season... even w/all the troubles he had this year, he was still able to log over 200 IP & win 14 games for us... yes, he also lost 14 games, but u gotta admit he lost a few games he could've easily won this season when the team didn't score runs for him... he could easily have won 17 games this season, bad final stretch & all... not bad for a middle of the rotation guy.
[Edited by - TMS on 09-25-2008 3:35 PM]
Andy's pitching injured right now. He was pretty good (ERA around 4) for most of the season. If you can get a 5th starter who's better than Andy, then don't resign him. But right now, he'd be our #3 starter next year and that's IF Mussina comes back. The Yankees would need to sign FOUR quality starters this off-season (counting Mussina) before I felt confident turning Andy away. If you're gonna overspend in any one area of the game, it HAS to be starting pitching.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Andy's pitching injured right now. He was pretty good (ERA around 4) for most of the season. If you can get a 5th starter who's better than Andy, then don't resign him. But right now, he'd be our #3 starter next year and that's IF Mussina comes back. The Yankees would need to sign FOUR quality starters this off-season (counting Mussina) before I felt confident turning Andy away. If you're gonna overspend in any one area of the game, it HAS to be starting pitching.
Not necessarily. Not if you move Joba to the rotation, then you have Chamberlain, Wang, Hughes and either Mussina or Aceves. They only might have to sign two starting pitchers: Mussina and Sabathia or Burnett or maybe even one if Moose packs it in (Aceves now gets a chance to be the 5th starter).
You go out and sign FA Juan Cruz for the bullpen to cover Joba's move to the rotation. IF THAT DOESN'T WORK for any reason, there will always be time to shift Joba back to the bullpen. The Yanks need to try this first. It's more cost effective and they'd look like geniuses if it worked.
Gardner 2 for 2 tonight against Halladay btw. Just scored the first run of the game....
[Edited by - finestrg on 09-25-2008 8:43 PM]
Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Andy's pitching injured right now. He was pretty good (ERA around 4) for most of the season. If you can get a 5th starter who's better than Andy, then don't resign him. But right now, he'd be our #3 starter next year and that's IF Mussina comes back. The Yankees would need to sign FOUR quality starters this off-season (counting Mussina) before I felt confident turning Andy away. If you're gonna overspend in any one area of the game, it HAS to be starting pitching.
Not necessarily. Not if you move Joba to the rotation, then you have Chamberlain, Wang, Hughes and either Mussina or Aceves. They only might have to sign two starting pitchers: Mussina and Sabathia or Burnett or maybe even one if Moose packs it in (Aceves now gets a chance to be the 5th starter).
You go out and sign FA Juan Cruz for the bullpen to cover Joba's move to the rotation. IF THAT DOESN'T WORK for any reason, there will always be time to shift Joba back to the bullpen. The Yanks need to try this first. It's more cost effective and they'd look like geniuses if it worked.
Gardner 2 for 2 tonight against Halladay btw. Just scored the first run of the game....
[Edited by - finestrg on 09-25-2008 8:43 PM]
Joba's been a starting pitcher for about two-thirds of a season in his entire career and he's had injury problems. He certainly isn't going to be in the starting rotation all year and no one knows how he'll even hold up as a starter for part of the year. When you have the huge financial advantage the Yankees do, you don't need to make an unclear gamble like that. That's the biggest reason I thought it was a mistake to rely on Hughes and Kennedy. If the team had a $40 mil payroll, it would have been another story. But there was just no reason to rely on starters who hadn't proven themselves year in and year out. If we have 5 starters, Joba will get his chance when inevitably one of the starters gets injured. And he'll get a chance to continue building up his innings. Then if he stays healthy, maybe next year he could join the starting rotation from the start of the season because Mussina and/or Pettitte would likely not be back by then.
All of that said, if you do count on Joba as a starter next season, then we still need to add THREE quality starting pitchers this off-season. It's awfully uncommon for a team to add that many in one off-season. So as long as Andy fully heals, I wouldn't mind bringing him back. He pitched very well before his injury.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Andy's pitching injured right now. He was pretty good (ERA around 4) for most of the season. If you can get a 5th starter who's better than Andy, then don't resign him. But right now, he'd be our #3 starter next year and that's IF Mussina comes back. The Yankees would need to sign FOUR quality starters this off-season (counting Mussina) before I felt confident turning Andy away. If you're gonna overspend in any one area of the game, it HAS to be starting pitching.
Not necessarily. Not if you move Joba to the rotation, then you have Chamberlain, Wang, Hughes and either Mussina or Aceves. They only might have to sign two starting pitchers: Mussina and Sabathia or Burnett or maybe even one if Moose packs it in (Aceves now gets a chance to be the 5th starter).
You go out and sign FA Juan Cruz for the bullpen to cover Joba's move to the rotation. IF THAT DOESN'T WORK for any reason, there will always be time to shift Joba back to the bullpen. The Yanks need to try this first. It's more cost effective and they'd look like geniuses if it worked.
Gardner 2 for 2 tonight against Halladay btw. Just scored the first run of the game....
[Edited by - finestrg on 09-25-2008 8:43 PM]
Joba's been a starting pitcher for about two-thirds of a season in his entire career and he's had injury problems. He certainly isn't going to be in the starting rotation all year and no one knows how he'll even hold up as a starter for part of the year. When you have the huge financial advantage the Yankees do, you don't need to make an unclear gamble like that. That's the biggest reason I thought it was a mistake to rely on Hughes and Kennedy. If the team had a $40 mil payroll, it would have been another story. But there was just no reason to rely on starters who hadn't proven themselves year in and year out. If we have 5 starters, Joba will get his chance when inevitably one of the starters gets injured. And he'll get a chance to continue building up his innings. Then if he stays healthy, maybe next year he could join the starting rotation from the start of the season because Mussina and/or Pettitte would likely not be back by then.
All of that said, if you do count on Joba as a starter next season, then we still need to add THREE quality starting pitchers this off-season. It's awfully uncommon for a team to add that many in one off-season. So as long as Andy fully heals, I wouldn't mind bringing him back. He pitched very well before his injury.
I don't agree at all, respectfully. Joba was a starter in the minors so when you consider his 'career' in baseball, minor league ball is considered professional ball. Starter in college at Nebraska also. It just so happens that when they brought him up to the majors they needed bullpen help, he had a power arm and he excelled pitching out of the bullpen beyond their expectations and they ran with it. Wasn't even given a chance to show how effective he could be as a starter at first. If he goes to the Arz. Fall League with Hughes, he'll be back on schedule to where the team wanted him to be when this season concludes. The decision makers (Hank, Cash, Joe) for this team all envision him as a starter. They've all came out and said as much. I believe they panicked when he returned from the DL and they never should have broke away from their original plan. Instead they gambled based on Joba's past bullpen success (remember they're thinking about making the post season when he got back, as we all were) - they thought they had enough starting pitching to squeak by and they thought Joba best served the team out of the bullpen down the stretch of the season. They are so rediculous in the way they baby this guy too IMO. He's a big strong kid. They need to put him in the rotation right from the beginning AND LEAVE HIM THERE (there's ways they can baby him there too, maybe they limit him to 85 pitches or 5,6 innings early on in April, May etc.). Jesus, it would just be nice if this team's brain trust just showed enough confidence and conviction in their own decisions. HE WAS SUCCESSFUL AS A STARTER. HE WILL BE AGAIN. You don't go into Fenway Park and beat Josh Beckett 1-0 if you can't handle being a starter. I bet you weren't calling him an 'unclear gamble' after that game Bonn. And IMO, you don't jerk Joba around by making him the main setup guy next year (which is what he will be, clearly, if they chicken out and he remains part of the bullpen) then all of a sudden spot start him when a starter sustains an injury. That's how you use a Darrell Rasner, a Dan Giese, maybe an Al Aceves. But not this kid. Joba Chamberlain's not some fill-in guy. It's stuff like that that will get this kid hurt. It's either one or the other, rotation or bullpen, and you stick to it.
Futhermore, Joba didn't get hurt because they made him a starter as a lot of people seem to believe. He got hurt because he got hurt. Simple as that. Freak little injury in the 100+ degree heat of Texas. It's not everyday that a pitcher has to suddenly hit the deck hard to avoid being hit by his catcher on a throw to 2nd base! And don't bother telling me that hitting the deck doesn't automatically give you rotator cuff tendinitis - I'll go along with that - but hitting the deck hard and the extreme temperature could have exacerbated it. You don't know. He got hurt just like Andrew Brackman got hurt. Just like Humberto Sanchez got hurt, Phil Hughes, Christian Garcia, etc... It happens. However, you put him in the rotation next year and that's one less starter you have to import or retain for millions (like retaining Pettitte for example - in my book Pettitte's an 'unclear gamble' at this point, much more than making Joba Chamberlain a full-time starter). Now I'm not saying we don't need a FA starter or 2. We do and I'm gonna want the best out there. I once believed we shouldn't bring back Moose and go for a guy like Jon Garland instead just because he's younger. I think I was wrong on that. I quickly realized Moose can come back and be effective and also that you just can't go out there and buy a whole new starting rotation. Even if you're the Yankees. Not realistic. There simply isn't the money for something as ambitious as that. Not when Sabathia alone will be asking $20 mil a season and big Mark Tex. is gonna want his too. There's a point where you have to start being creative and fiscally responsible. That's why I recommend bringing in Juan Cruz for the bullpen. He's the best bullpen arm out there that's available, he replaces Joba in the pen - power arm for power arm, allows Joba to move to the rotation w/o the pen losing much if anything, and he'll come cheaper than signing a Jon Garland and/or an AJ Burnett, being a middle reliever. We shouldn't be talking starter or closer money here for this guy.
[Edited by - finestrg on 09-26-2008 01:27 AM]
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story...Rivera returns to New York for end-of-season medical tests
TORONTO -- Yankees closer Mariano Rivera returned to New York on Thursday for an MRI on his shoulder, but the injury is not considered serious enough to keep him out of this weekend's final series at Boston.
Rivera is 6-5 with a 1.43 ERA and 38 saves in 39 opportunities.
"If we were still playing for something, Mo would still be here," manager Joe Girardi said after New York lost 8-2 to Toronto on Thursday night.
General manager Brian Cashman told reporters before Thursday's game that Rivera had been pitching with discomfort in his shoulder, but didn't tell the team about the injury until after the Yankees were eliminated from postseason play on Tuesday. Cashman said he didn't consider Rivera's condition to be serious, but agreed the right-hander should have an MRI.
"Mo didn't ask to go Wednesday morning," Girardi said. "If there was a huge concern, I think he would have gone Wednesday morning."
Rivera left the team Thursday and flew to New York for the exam. Results have not been made available.
Girardi acknowledged before Thursday's game that Rivera had left the team, but said only that the 38-year-old had complained "his whole body was a little cranky." Girardi said Rivera had returned to New York for end-of-season medical exams, a formality for many players.
Confronted with Cashman's statements after the game, Girardi was defensive.
"I'm telling you what the player told me," Girardi said. "If you don't like it, there's not a whole lot I can do. I'm the manager, I have to answer the questions. I'm answering the questions with the knowledge that I have."
Rivera didn't pitch Wednesday after appearing in four of New York's previous five games.
"I could have pitched him last night if I had to," Girardi said before the game. "Since we were eliminated and he'd pitched four out of five days, I just didn't see a need to do it."
Holy shit! 63 pages of yankee talk? Where the hell have I been?
