Off Topic · Lost Final Season (page 3)

djsunyc wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:Clears up a lot of unexplained items. Set seems to have been behind a great many things, including setting up John to die knowing Ben's jealousy. It was great to see Ben come to the realization. The expression on his face when he said you used me. Also, it appears that Set was the figure in the chair and not Jacob that Locke saw. I just feel bad for Locke how he was used as a puppet.

i thought it was jacob in the chair b/c the ash circle wasn't broken when they entered it.

but was the ash circle meant to protect jacob by keeping the other dude out? or was the ash circle meant to keep the other dude stuck inside?

pretty cool season opener. definitely reminded me that trying to figure out the show is futile. just enjoy the ride.

eViL wrote:but was the ash circle meant to protect jacob by keeping the other dude out? or was the ash circle meant to keep the other dude stuck inside?

dude bro...i was just about to log in and ask the same question. if you are thinking like me, then you my friend are one smart guy...

eViL wrote:

djsunyc wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:Clears up a lot of unexplained items. Set seems to have been behind a great many things, including setting up John to die knowing Ben's jealousy. It was great to see Ben come to the realization. The expression on his face when he said you used me. Also, it appears that Set was the figure in the chair and not Jacob that Locke saw. I just feel bad for Locke how he was used as a puppet.

i thought it was jacob in the chair b/c the ash circle wasn't broken when they entered it.

but was the ash circle meant to protect jacob by keeping the other dude out? or was the ash circle meant to keep the other dude stuck inside?

pretty cool season opener. definitely reminded me that trying to figure out the show is futile. just enjoy the ride.

That is my thoughts. At first I thought Jacob was confined to the cabin but now we know he has been leaving the island on a regular basis for awhile while <Set> appears to be trapped on the island and cannot leave. Jacob has never describe being in pain but it seems like Set has been like Locke described the man in the chair in pain. Also remember that Richard was taking them to see Jacob not at the cabin but at the foot of the idol which was apparently his sanctuary which is an idol of Horus. Also keep in mind most the apparitions occurred in the jungle near or around the cabin. The voices as they called them. According to myth Set commands the dead and can communicate through them. My only question is that he attack them on their first night on the island on the beach as well. But going back through it all, he manifested himself to Mr. Ecko, John, Jack, Ben, and others.

nyk4ever wrote:at this point, I'm pretty certain jacob is the bad guy and esau is the good guy

why do you say that?

djsunyc wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:at this point, I'm pretty certain jacob is the bad guy and esau is the good guy

why do you say that?

variety of reasons really, obviously no straight proof and as of right now, it appears jacob has done nothing but good for everyone, but i think its all done to feed into his own agenda. heres just a few thoughts that have went through my mind...

- nothing on lost is ever as it seems
- the smoke monster/esau did not kill good people, it only killed people who were bad
- jacob set the stage for innocent people to die just to get the O6 back to the island
- jacob has people protecting him (cesar, illana, that other guy) who use weapons and do kill people
- jacob resurrects in sayid (if you believe that's what happened at the end of last episode) a man who has killed all his life and esau resurrects in locke who is a good man.

i mean that's just a few things, i know im forgetting some, but it's early.

both jacob and the MIB have always presented people with choices. the most recent is jacob giving ben a choice and he stabbed him anyway. and the MIB gave bram and jacob's "bodyguards" a choice and they chose to fire their guns at him.

it appears to me that whatever the are, they were put on the island for some purpose...and the MIB is sick of it. he just wants to go "home". on jacob's end, he seems to have faith in man for their "experiment/test" and is a willing participant in it. so i'm not sure if there's a good/bad.

here's a theory that's floating around (not about them but the show)...the alternate timeline is really what happens AFTER the 2007 on island storyline finishes. meaning it's some sort of flashforward. we saw the island is sunk at the bottom of the ocean...maybe that's what happens in the on island story that's going on now. maybe at the end of that story, the island is destroyed and sunk...and when that happens, that's where the alternate timeline story begins. and in that alternate timeline story (the one where desmond is on the plane and jack saves charlie from suffocating) is where the losties find their salvation - back in los angeles.

eViL wrote:that's not a bad theory. but what kinda salvation is it for charlie and jin, both of whom enter a shitstorm through the alternate timeline?

charlie, i fear, will have to die and was always meant to die. he even said so to jack after he saved him on the plane. jack brought him back from death when he was in the jungle in season 2 when ethan hung him from a tree...and desmond kept saving him in season 3. (interestingly, all visions/death of charlie had him suffocating/drowing).

jin, if i remember correctly, wanted to come to the US and then stay there (after he delivered the watch - to widmore?) with jin and run away from her father to be happy in their marriage. that's why i think he had the cash in the suitcase. of course, sun wasn't aware of that and was going to leave him at the airport in japan but chickened out and got on the plane instead.

nah, that's a good theory though. would certainly fall in line with the writers clever use of time and associated story telling devices.

What I’m going to try to do as quick as I can (that’s a joke, it’s never quick) is tie several things together and make this the tent-pole thread for discussing the concept of ancient aliens as the drivers of the island and the show Lost. I’ve been thinking this for a while, and based on last night’s episode and the opening scene, that was enough for me.

Please read the exchange between Jacob and the other guy who is being called anti-Jacob.

Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship.
Anti-Jacob: I am. How did they find the island?

Jacob- You'll have to ask when they get here.
Anti-Jacob: I don’t have to ask, you brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong aren’t you?

Jacob: You ARE wrong.
Anti-Jacob: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.

Jacob: But it only ends once, anything that happens before that, its just progress.
Anti-Jacob: You have any idea how badly I want to kill you? Jacob: Yes

Anti-Jacob: One of these days, sooner or later, I’m gonna find a loop hole my friend.
Jacob: And when you do, I’ll be right here.

Anti-Jacob: Always nice talking to you Jacob.
Jacob: Nice talking to you too.

Now, read everything that supports the ancient alien concept, and later on, read that exchange again, and I think you’ll see what I mean. Let’s start with some assumptions. This is where my head is at right now.

Assume that the ancient Egyptians did receive assistance from and were influenced by aliens thousands of years ago.

Assume that these aliens had different abilities that made the ancient Egyptians perceive them as gods.

Understand that the ancient Egyptians had a fascination with living forever and the afterlife, so anyone with these powers would have power and dominion over them.

Assume that after the aliens that came here to influence Egypt learned what they needed to about humanity and our planet at that time, and then packed up and left the Milky Way.

Assume they left behind a mechanism capable of studying humanity’s advancement and collecting history about the human race and ultimately testing us.

OK, here’s the big leap: Assume this testing mechanism is the island. (Again, I acknowledge that island theories are many and varied, this is what I think the island is based on with what we now know.)

Now, on to Jacob and Anti-Jacob.

Assume that the ancient alien race left this island-as-test/Petri dish behind. Call it what you want, but at this point, I’m looking at the entire thing as kind of spaceship. Before you pile on, I’m not talking a traditional or literal spaceship, think way more advanced. And I’m not talking about a buried thing like in the end of Indy 4.

The fact is, we’ve seen the island use its own internal power source and unique electromagnetic force field (yes there’s a force field, TPTB don’t want to define it because it’s a landmine to explain, but they’ve acknowledged that it’s there) to MOVE THROUGH SPACE AND TIME. We know it has happened at least twice during the show. We know there is an ancient wooden wheel that is part of the controls or maybe the only control tool on this island. We know that turning that control expels the individual to the same location on earth every time, but at some point in the future.

What the island has done, what we have witnessed, is not that much different from what many famous sci fi ufo’s do in the movies. They always have a mysterious huge power source, they have shields that create a bubble where the weather is always 78 degrees inside, and g force won’t kill you for making very sharp turns, and many of them are able to basically teleport to a different location by creating a wormhole and punching through it. THE ISLAND HAS ALL OF THAT. It doesn’t have to be a 3 mile wide silver disc to qualify as an alien transport system. Think outside that 1950’s stereotypical box. Think back to Desmond’s snow globe reference.

The problem I suspect for Jacob and Anti-Jacob is that the island is pre-programmed to do what it does, and they were tasked with maintaining it and letting it run its course. What is that course? Well that’s where the references from last night were amazing, and for me, it was the best Lost episode ever.

Before we review the evidence, let’s go back to the Jacob and Anti-Jacob exchange, and read it from the perspective outlined above, and assume you’re were watching 2 different alien entities with different abilities as the scene unfolds.

Assume they’ve been doing this for god-knows-how-long already and it’s the 1800’s, and Jacob is content with his place on the island and his role of assisting humanity with “the test”. He has faith in us. Assume that Anti-Jacob is absolutely sick of doing this, has no faith in humanity ever succeeding, and want to force the issue by ending “the test” so he can get out of here. Now, here it is again.

Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship.

Anti-Jacob: I am. How did they find the island?

Jacob- You'll have to ask when they get here.

Anti-Jacob: I don’t have to ask, you brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong aren’t you? (This references "the test", and their assigment or mission)

Jacob: You ARE wrong.

Anti-Jacob: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same. (Not a fan of humaity)

Jacob: But it only ends once, anything that happens before that, its just progress.

Anti-Jacob: You have any idea how badly I want to kill you? (Read: Do you have any idea how sick I am of these humans and these cycles, I want to end this and go home, they're not going to figure it out)

Jacob: Yes

Anti-Jacob: One of these days, sooner or later, I’m gonna find a loop hole my friend. (I'm done, I'm going to spend the next few hundred years manipulating the variables to create a loophole so I can end this, and I don't care what that means to this planet and this race.)

Jacob: And when you do, I’ll be right here. (We're aliens and we don't die easily, and you know YOU can't kill me, so have at it)

Anti-Jacob: Always nice talking to you Jacob.

Jacob: Nice talking to you too.

That scene took place in the 1800’s, assumedly with the Black Rock or a similar era vessel off shore. So at the end of the episode it is 2007, it has taken hundreds of years to accomplish, but somehow though manipulation, Anti-Jacob has found his loophole though Locke.

The scene on the beach looked like they’d had that same conversation about humans for years, there is a certain detachment in their tone about “people” and “humanity”. What was significant about it was that it was probably the first time that Anti-Jacob had made that exact threat to Jacob. A threat that he carries out at the end of the episode. The writers usually do this, they set up in the first scene what they conclude in the last.

Why didn’t he just kill Jacob? How was Ben able to do so? Not sure, we can theorize about that all summer, but it would seem likely that the two can’t directly destroy each other. Anti-Jacob needed to manipulate Ben and use Locke to accomplish his “loophole”.

We don’t have enough information about the two of them at this point, but that is obviously a focus of season 6. Let the speculation begin in other threads.

Support and References to other sci fi shows and themes

Let’s get on to the support and the references. First, I loved that they started the scene showing Jacob frying a fish and eating it. Classic misdirection from the writers, they do this all the time. They want you to think that this is just some guy stranded on the island, and that he’s human. When asked if he wants any, Anti-Jacob says “No thanks, I just ate.” Like these two need to eat. Come on, they’ve been there for hundreds, if not thousands of years. More proof that Jacob is comfortable with his assignment and even likes partaking in the local food chain. Anti-Jacob, not so much.

Swan Station Irony –

I found it ironic that these two ancient aliens seem to be in a similar situation to Desmond and Kelvin, from the standpoint that you have 2 guys stuck in a situation, and one guy wants to get out of it, no matter what the repercussions may be to everyone else and the world. I’m betting right now that the stakes will be huge for all humanity when Anti-Jacob tries to end “the test” next season and get out of his predicament. In fact, I think with some direction from Alpert, the remaining humans are going to start to realize that the comments made by Eloise Hawking, the rants of Desmond about saving the world, and the threats of the impending battle that is coming all foreshadow this.

Walt’s Comic from the Pilot –

Do a search for mine and anyone else’s previous threads about the Comic book. I bought it within weeks of the pilot and when I watched a video interview yesterday of Damon Lindeloff on Entertainment Weekly’s website, Damon’s tease for the episode was that it would be a “very touching episode”. (See the 4th clip)

http://www.ew.com/ew/package/0,,1550...id=22714570001

In case you missed it, Jacob touched every single human he interacted with in the Incident episode last night. This to me denoted a power of suggestion. Guess who had something similar to this? The alien in the Comic book, that’s who. He could control people’s minds, and he was stranded on earth. See the similarities? My favorite part of all of this, is that in classic fashion, TPTB (Damon and Carlton) staunchly refuted for 2 seasons that time travel AND aliens had anything to do with the show. I will post links to my own threads from early on where I would catch them contradicting themselves in statements, and as many of you know, I was part of a group that were the very first to call shenanigans on them about 4 or 5 episodes in. I knew time was a part of the show, and have the time stamps to prove it.

This is nothing different now. They later came out and admitted that to throw people off, they had to lie, and yes, time was a huge aspect to the show. This is now obviously fact. The same thing is coming for the involvement of ancient aliens, so get ready for it now. You really think that Jacob and Anti-Jacob are going to be explained in the end as humans or ghosts?

Indiana Jones 4

I wonder sometimes if TPTB saw the ending to Indy 4 and got kind of ticked. It’s not the same as what is happening with Lost, but the concept of something being left behind where later on, once someone advances to a point where they can solve the puzzle or pass the test, something huge happens, is similar. In Indy 4, it was just about a ship booting up and going home, taking with it its collection of artifacts from the human race. Basically, it was like an off-world museum collection system. With Lost, I believe the implications of what happens if Anti-Jacob succeeds are very bed for humanity. There may be a very bad penalty if humans are deemed unable to pass “the test”. Or on a smaller scale, Anti-Jacob may be trying to get the island-as-a-ship to go back to his home world. The final turn of the donkey wheel may be just that. Perhaps you only get so many moves around the earth and resets to the cycle before something bad happens? Again, we’ll find out in season 6.

Star Trek TNG and the Q Continuum

Obvious to me, this entire season of Lost has references that were made to the series finale, All Good Things (read the IMBD synapses here).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111281/plotsummary

It’s the episode where Picard is jumping back and forth in time to solve the puzzle of an anomaly in the neutral zone that threatens the earth if it keeps growing. In the end, Q shows up and explains the test to him and says “I didn’t think you had it in you.” There was another episode titled Cause and Effect (read the IMBD synapses here).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0162905/

In it, there is a time loop paradox situation, and eventually, Picard realizes that all his previous attempts doing different things to save the ship keep failing, and maybe the best thing to do is nothing, and he moves the ship into the fissure, which will kill everyone, but in fact, it ends the loop. Picard is successful and solves the puzzle. Classic stuff in general, with the superior race ultimately studying the evolution and advancement of an inferior race and testing them. Again, solving the time loop of the island is probably “the test” for whatever humans stumble onto or are brought to the island. Except its obviously taking a lot longer than Anti-Jacob has patience for. Similar situations that also popped in my head were the judging of humans by the aliens in the movie The Abyss.

Groundhog Day –
Yes, stop laughing, Groundhog day. Maybe not a direct reference here, but read the exchange again. Jacob and Anti-Jacob are aware of the repeating time cycles. They mention it. My guess is that Jacob is like Bill Murray where he is systematically building on his previous successes, one move at a time. He may only find out the outcome of one new situation, but it will help the next time through. That is why we finally saw the real Jacob in the real world, using his powers of influence and touching these people. He needs to keep bringing the same people back to the island so that humanity has a better chance of passing “the test”. He is stacking the deck in our favor. He is doing what Eloise Hawking was trying to do when she said they had to make conditions as similar as they could. I mean come on, he touched Hurly and then next thing you know, Hurly is on that plane. That took a power.

The ultimate question is going to be, was Miles right about doing nothing, or was Faraday right about the Nuke ending the loop and being the variable. If you subscribe to the other “tests” referenced, like the Q scenario, sometimes doing the thing that you kills you all is the way to pass the test. Maybe that is what gets them back to the year 2007 like Faraday speculated. And how did they get that far? They did it with help from Jacob nudging them along each cycle though. See….Groundhog Day.

This revelation for me was huge, because I always wondered: WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF ALL THE INTERCONNECTIONS BETWEEN THESE CHARACTERS? Well, this gives us a probable explanation. They NEED to go to the island and go back to the island over and over again because that is how humanity is figuring out ‘the test”. And thanks to the advancing science of the DHARMA Initiative and the Lamp Post, humanity had reached a technologically advanced state that now affords us multiple shots at the target, because now (in 2007) the island can be located! That’s getting closer to passing “the test”.

Stargate –

Another Egyptian themed movie, with an alien using a human body as a vessel, taking the human form, and powers to scramble people’s brains and kill them by touching them. Sound familiar? Jacob? The alien in the Walt’s comic book? You get the picture.

Dreamcatcher –

The only part that caught my attention here was at the end when Ben was surprised at Anti-Jacob (as Locke) and Jacob’s meeting, saying, “You two know each other?” It reminded me of the end of that Stephen King movie where you have a human watching bad alien and a good alien, except the good alien has been in human form, Duddits, as played by Donnie Walberg. I got a similar vibe there, that this is a very old power struggle between two entities that are similar but have unique powers. If I had to guess, I would say Jacob and his touch powers of influence are able to leave the island. I’m not sure if Anti-Jacob is Smokey, or if Smokey works with Anti-Jacob, but I would bet he can’t leave the force field bubble that surrounds the island, so he has to work with what he has (and who he has) on the island. He’s more of an influencer. I see the arguments both ways about him being or not being Smokey, I suspect that will be a key debate all offseason.

In conclusion, I add all this up, and I get the same thing: ancient aliens and their technology. Just like when they said it wans’t time travel, I knew they were lying and that it WAS indeed time travel. The ancient alien concept works so well because you don’t have to explain the science of the show in 21st century human terms, it goes back so long ago and is so advanced, you don’t even need a conventional ship. They just need what the island was built to be (wooden wheel and all): a test for humanity, a way to study humans in conflict, outside of their normal environment, and somehow take all that information and bring it back to the alien homeworld in the end, or destroy earth if we fail, who knows.

In science, testing things at their limitations is a common practice. If you think about things like the Prime Directive from Star Trek, and consider how different advanced civilizations may study new species when they find them, it all ads up. This may be the way this particular civilization has chosen to observe humanity.

Big Picture, that’s how they were able to pull off a character driven show all this time, its ultimately about this group of people and why they’ve been chosen to take this test multiple times and whether they’ll succeed at it. The storylines and complicated rivalries between Ben and Widmore and the others and crashers make up 90% of the show, but it all is going to end somewhere, and they’ve alluded to the fact the ending is going to be huge.

Next season will be all about the human struggle to figure the loop out (if the nuke hasn’t already solved it, which I suspect it has) and deal with the repercussions of Anti-Jacob and what he’s trying to accomplish, which is probably not good for humanity.

This is what I think is happening with the island (which is what I've always studied) and I may be totally wrong here, as we all have been before. Fire away, I have to get some work done. And please, if you have posted similar elements or threads before, please post links. Thanks.

Pinnerman

djsunyc wrote:here's an interesting theory where he believes jacob and MIB are aliens conducting an experiment/test...it's long but he presents a very good case for his hypothesis...

What I’m going to try to do as quick as I can (that’s a joke, it’s never quick) is tie several things together and make this the tent-pole thread for discussing the concept of ancient aliens as the drivers of the island and the show Lost. I’ve been thinking this for a while, and based on last night’s episode and the opening scene, that was enough for me.

Please read the exchange between Jacob and the other guy who is being called anti-Jacob.

Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship.
Anti-Jacob: I am. How did they find the island?

Jacob- You'll have to ask when they get here.
Anti-Jacob: I don’t have to ask, you brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong aren’t you?

Jacob: You ARE wrong.
Anti-Jacob: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.

Jacob: But it only ends once, anything that happens before that, its just progress.
Anti-Jacob: You have any idea how badly I want to kill you? Jacob: Yes

Anti-Jacob: One of these days, sooner or later, I’m gonna find a loop hole my friend.
Jacob: And when you do, I’ll be right here.

Anti-Jacob: Always nice talking to you Jacob.
Jacob: Nice talking to you too.

Now, read everything that supports the ancient alien concept, and later on, read that exchange again, and I think you’ll see what I mean. Let’s start with some assumptions. This is where my head is at right now.

Assume that the ancient Egyptians did receive assistance from and were influenced by aliens thousands of years ago.

Assume that these aliens had different abilities that made the ancient Egyptians perceive them as gods.

Understand that the ancient Egyptians had a fascination with living forever and the afterlife, so anyone with these powers would have power and dominion over them.

Assume that after the aliens that came here to influence Egypt learned what they needed to about humanity and our planet at that time, and then packed up and left the Milky Way.

Assume they left behind a mechanism capable of studying humanity’s advancement and collecting history about the human race and ultimately testing us.

OK, here’s the big leap: Assume this testing mechanism is the island. (Again, I acknowledge that island theories are many and varied, this is what I think the island is based on with what we now know.)

Now, on to Jacob and Anti-Jacob.

Assume that the ancient alien race left this island-as-test/Petri dish behind. Call it what you want, but at this point, I’m looking at the entire thing as kind of spaceship. Before you pile on, I’m not talking a traditional or literal spaceship, think way more advanced. And I’m not talking about a buried thing like in the end of Indy 4.

The fact is, we’ve seen the island use its own internal power source and unique electromagnetic force field (yes there’s a force field, TPTB don’t want to define it because it’s a landmine to explain, but they’ve acknowledged that it’s there) to MOVE THROUGH SPACE AND TIME. We know it has happened at least twice during the show. We know there is an ancient wooden wheel that is part of the controls or maybe the only control tool on this island. We know that turning that control expels the individual to the same location on earth every time, but at some point in the future.

What the island has done, what we have witnessed, is not that much different from what many famous sci fi ufo’s do in the movies. They always have a mysterious huge power source, they have shields that create a bubble where the weather is always 78 degrees inside, and g force won’t kill you for making very sharp turns, and many of them are able to basically teleport to a different location by creating a wormhole and punching through it. THE ISLAND HAS ALL OF THAT. It doesn’t have to be a 3 mile wide silver disc to qualify as an alien transport system. Think outside that 1950’s stereotypical box. Think back to Desmond’s snow globe reference.

The problem I suspect for Jacob and Anti-Jacob is that the island is pre-programmed to do what it does, and they were tasked with maintaining it and letting it run its course. What is that course? Well that’s where the references from last night were amazing, and for me, it was the best Lost episode ever.

Before we review the evidence, let’s go back to the Jacob and Anti-Jacob exchange, and read it from the perspective outlined above, and assume you’re were watching 2 different alien entities with different abilities as the scene unfolds.

Assume they’ve been doing this for god-knows-how-long already and it’s the 1800’s, and Jacob is content with his place on the island and his role of assisting humanity with “the test”. He has faith in us. Assume that Anti-Jacob is absolutely sick of doing this, has no faith in humanity ever succeeding, and want to force the issue by ending “the test” so he can get out of here. Now, here it is again.

Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship.

Anti-Jacob: I am. How did they find the island?

Jacob- You'll have to ask when they get here.

Anti-Jacob: I don’t have to ask, you brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong aren’t you? (This references "the test", and their assigment or mission)

Jacob: You ARE wrong.

Anti-Jacob: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same. (Not a fan of humaity)

Jacob: But it only ends once, anything that happens before that, its just progress.

Anti-Jacob: You have any idea how badly I want to kill you? (Read: Do you have any idea how sick I am of these humans and these cycles, I want to end this and go home, they're not going to figure it out)

Jacob: Yes

Anti-Jacob: One of these days, sooner or later, I’m gonna find a loop hole my friend. (I'm done, I'm going to spend the next few hundred years manipulating the variables to create a loophole so I can end this, and I don't care what that means to this planet and this race.)

Jacob: And when you do, I’ll be right here. (We're aliens and we don't die easily, and you know YOU can't kill me, so have at it)

Anti-Jacob: Always nice talking to you Jacob.

Jacob: Nice talking to you too.

That scene took place in the 1800’s, assumedly with the Black Rock or a similar era vessel off shore. So at the end of the episode it is 2007, it has taken hundreds of years to accomplish, but somehow though manipulation, Anti-Jacob has found his loophole though Locke.

The scene on the beach looked like they’d had that same conversation about humans for years, there is a certain detachment in their tone about “people” and “humanity”. What was significant about it was that it was probably the first time that Anti-Jacob had made that exact threat to Jacob. A threat that he carries out at the end of the episode. The writers usually do this, they set up in the first scene what they conclude in the last.

Why didn’t he just kill Jacob? How was Ben able to do so? Not sure, we can theorize about that all summer, but it would seem likely that the two can’t directly destroy each other. Anti-Jacob needed to manipulate Ben and use Locke to accomplish his “loophole”.

We don’t have enough information about the two of them at this point, but that is obviously a focus of season 6. Let the speculation begin in other threads.

Support and References to other sci fi shows and themes

Let’s get on to the support and the references. First, I loved that they started the scene showing Jacob frying a fish and eating it. Classic misdirection from the writers, they do this all the time. They want you to think that this is just some guy stranded on the island, and that he’s human. When asked if he wants any, Anti-Jacob says “No thanks, I just ate.” Like these two need to eat. Come on, they’ve been there for hundreds, if not thousands of years. More proof that Jacob is comfortable with his assignment and even likes partaking in the local food chain. Anti-Jacob, not so much.

Swan Station Irony –

I found it ironic that these two ancient aliens seem to be in a similar situation to Desmond and Kelvin, from the standpoint that you have 2 guys stuck in a situation, and one guy wants to get out of it, no matter what the repercussions may be to everyone else and the world. I’m betting right now that the stakes will be huge for all humanity when Anti-Jacob tries to end “the test” next season and get out of his predicament. In fact, I think with some direction from Alpert, the remaining humans are going to start to realize that the comments made by Eloise Hawking, the rants of Desmond about saving the world, and the threats of the impending battle that is coming all foreshadow this.

Walt’s Comic from the Pilot –

Do a search for mine and anyone else’s previous threads about the Comic book. I bought it within weeks of the pilot and when I watched a video interview yesterday of Damon Lindeloff on Entertainment Weekly’s website, Damon’s tease for the episode was that it would be a “very touching episode”. (See the 4th clip)

http://www.ew.com/ew/package/0,,1550...id=22714570001

In case you missed it, Jacob touched every single human he interacted with in the Incident episode last night. This to me denoted a power of suggestion. Guess who had something similar to this? The alien in the Comic book, that’s who. He could control people’s minds, and he was stranded on earth. See the similarities? My favorite part of all of this, is that in classic fashion, TPTB (Damon and Carlton) staunchly refuted for 2 seasons that time travel AND aliens had anything to do with the show. I will post links to my own threads from early on where I would catch them contradicting themselves in statements, and as many of you know, I was part of a group that were the very first to call shenanigans on them about 4 or 5 episodes in. I knew time was a part of the show, and have the time stamps to prove it.

This is nothing different now. They later came out and admitted that to throw people off, they had to lie, and yes, time was a huge aspect to the show. This is now obviously fact. The same thing is coming for the involvement of ancient aliens, so get ready for it now. You really think that Jacob and Anti-Jacob are going to be explained in the end as humans or ghosts?

Indiana Jones 4

I wonder sometimes if TPTB saw the ending to Indy 4 and got kind of ticked. It’s not the same as what is happening with Lost, but the concept of something being left behind where later on, once someone advances to a point where they can solve the puzzle or pass the test, something huge happens, is similar. In Indy 4, it was just about a ship booting up and going home, taking with it its collection of artifacts from the human race. Basically, it was like an off-world museum collection system. With Lost, I believe the implications of what happens if Anti-Jacob succeeds are very bed for humanity. There may be a very bad penalty if humans are deemed unable to pass “the test”. Or on a smaller scale, Anti-Jacob may be trying to get the island-as-a-ship to go back to his home world. The final turn of the donkey wheel may be just that. Perhaps you only get so many moves around the earth and resets to the cycle before something bad happens? Again, we’ll find out in season 6.

Star Trek TNG and the Q Continuum

Obvious to me, this entire season of Lost has references that were made to the series finale, All Good Things (read the IMBD synapses here).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111281/plotsummary

It’s the episode where Picard is jumping back and forth in time to solve the puzzle of an anomaly in the neutral zone that threatens the earth if it keeps growing. In the end, Q shows up and explains the test to him and says “I didn’t think you had it in you.” There was another episode titled Cause and Effect (read the IMBD synapses here).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0162905/

In it, there is a time loop paradox situation, and eventually, Picard realizes that all his previous attempts doing different things to save the ship keep failing, and maybe the best thing to do is nothing, and he moves the ship into the fissure, which will kill everyone, but in fact, it ends the loop. Picard is successful and solves the puzzle. Classic stuff in general, with the superior race ultimately studying the evolution and advancement of an inferior race and testing them. Again, solving the time loop of the island is probably “the test” for whatever humans stumble onto or are brought to the island. Except its obviously taking a lot longer than Anti-Jacob has patience for. Similar situations that also popped in my head were the judging of humans by the aliens in the movie The Abyss.

Groundhog Day –
Yes, stop laughing, Groundhog day. Maybe not a direct reference here, but read the exchange again. Jacob and Anti-Jacob are aware of the repeating time cycles. They mention it. My guess is that Jacob is like Bill Murray where he is systematically building on his previous successes, one move at a time. He may only find out the outcome of one new situation, but it will help the next time through. That is why we finally saw the real Jacob in the real world, using his powers of influence and touching these people. He needs to keep bringing the same people back to the island so that humanity has a better chance of passing “the test”. He is stacking the deck in our favor. He is doing what Eloise Hawking was trying to do when she said they had to make conditions as similar as they could. I mean come on, he touched Hurly and then next thing you know, Hurly is on that plane. That took a power.

The ultimate question is going to be, was Miles right about doing nothing, or was Faraday right about the Nuke ending the loop and being the variable. If you subscribe to the other “tests” referenced, like the Q scenario, sometimes doing the thing that you kills you all is the way to pass the test. Maybe that is what gets them back to the year 2007 like Faraday speculated. And how did they get that far? They did it with help from Jacob nudging them along each cycle though. See….Groundhog Day.

This revelation for me was huge, because I always wondered: WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF ALL THE INTERCONNECTIONS BETWEEN THESE CHARACTERS? Well, this gives us a probable explanation. They NEED to go to the island and go back to the island over and over again because that is how humanity is figuring out ‘the test”. And thanks to the advancing science of the DHARMA Initiative and the Lamp Post, humanity had reached a technologically advanced state that now affords us multiple shots at the target, because now (in 2007) the island can be located! That’s getting closer to passing “the test”.

Stargate –

Another Egyptian themed movie, with an alien using a human body as a vessel, taking the human form, and powers to scramble people’s brains and kill them by touching them. Sound familiar? Jacob? The alien in the Walt’s comic book? You get the picture.

Dreamcatcher –

The only part that caught my attention here was at the end when Ben was surprised at Anti-Jacob (as Locke) and Jacob’s meeting, saying, “You two know each other?” It reminded me of the end of that Stephen King movie where you have a human watching bad alien and a good alien, except the good alien has been in human form, Duddits, as played by Donnie Walberg. I got a similar vibe there, that this is a very old power struggle between two entities that are similar but have unique powers. If I had to guess, I would say Jacob and his touch powers of influence are able to leave the island. I’m not sure if Anti-Jacob is Smokey, or if Smokey works with Anti-Jacob, but I would bet he can’t leave the force field bubble that surrounds the island, so he has to work with what he has (and who he has) on the island. He’s more of an influencer. I see the arguments both ways about him being or not being Smokey, I suspect that will be a key debate all offseason.

In conclusion, I add all this up, and I get the same thing: ancient aliens and their technology. Just like when they said it wans’t time travel, I knew they were lying and that it WAS indeed time travel. The ancient alien concept works so well because you don’t have to explain the science of the show in 21st century human terms, it goes back so long ago and is so advanced, you don’t even need a conventional ship. They just need what the island was built to be (wooden wheel and all): a test for humanity, a way to study humans in conflict, outside of their normal environment, and somehow take all that information and bring it back to the alien homeworld in the end, or destroy earth if we fail, who knows.

In science, testing things at their limitations is a common practice. If you think about things like the Prime Directive from Star Trek, and consider how different advanced civilizations may study new species when they find them, it all ads up. This may be the way this particular civilization has chosen to observe humanity.

Big Picture, that’s how they were able to pull off a character driven show all this time, its ultimately about this group of people and why they’ve been chosen to take this test multiple times and whether they’ll succeed at it. The storylines and complicated rivalries between Ben and Widmore and the others and crashers make up 90% of the show, but it all is going to end somewhere, and they’ve alluded to the fact the ending is going to be huge.

Next season will be all about the human struggle to figure the loop out (if the nuke hasn’t already solved it, which I suspect it has) and deal with the repercussions of Anti-Jacob and what he’s trying to accomplish, which is probably not good for humanity.

This is what I think is happening with the island (which is what I've always studied) and I may be totally wrong here, as we all have been before. Fire away, I have to get some work done. And please, if you have posted similar elements or threads before, please post links. Thanks.

Pinnerman

Someone has way too much time on their hands.

jusnice wrote:

djsunyc wrote:here's an interesting theory where he believes jacob and MIB are aliens conducting an experiment/test...it's long but he presents a very good case for his hypothesis...

What I’m going to try to do as quick as I can (that’s a joke, it’s never quick) is tie several things together and make this the tent-pole thread for discussing the concept of ancient aliens as the drivers of the island and the show Lost. I’ve been thinking this for a while, and based on last night’s episode and the opening scene, that was enough for me.

Please read the exchange between Jacob and the other guy who is being called anti-Jacob.

Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship.
Anti-Jacob: I am. How did they find the island?

Jacob- You'll have to ask when they get here.
Anti-Jacob: I don’t have to ask, you brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong aren’t you?

Jacob: You ARE wrong.
Anti-Jacob: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.

Jacob: But it only ends once, anything that happens before that, its just progress.
Anti-Jacob: You have any idea how badly I want to kill you? Jacob: Yes

Anti-Jacob: One of these days, sooner or later, I’m gonna find a loop hole my friend.
Jacob: And when you do, I’ll be right here.

Anti-Jacob: Always nice talking to you Jacob.
Jacob: Nice talking to you too.

Now, read everything that supports the ancient alien concept, and later on, read that exchange again, and I think you’ll see what I mean. Let’s start with some assumptions. This is where my head is at right now.

Assume that the ancient Egyptians did receive assistance from and were influenced by aliens thousands of years ago.

Assume that these aliens had different abilities that made the ancient Egyptians perceive them as gods.

Understand that the ancient Egyptians had a fascination with living forever and the afterlife, so anyone with these powers would have power and dominion over them.

Assume that after the aliens that came here to influence Egypt learned what they needed to about humanity and our planet at that time, and then packed up and left the Milky Way.

Assume they left behind a mechanism capable of studying humanity’s advancement and collecting history about the human race and ultimately testing us.

OK, here’s the big leap: Assume this testing mechanism is the island. (Again, I acknowledge that island theories are many and varied, this is what I think the island is based on with what we now know.)

Now, on to Jacob and Anti-Jacob.

Assume that the ancient alien race left this island-as-test/Petri dish behind. Call it what you want, but at this point, I’m looking at the entire thing as kind of spaceship. Before you pile on, I’m not talking a traditional or literal spaceship, think way more advanced. And I’m not talking about a buried thing like in the end of Indy 4.

The fact is, we’ve seen the island use its own internal power source and unique electromagnetic force field (yes there’s a force field, TPTB don’t want to define it because it’s a landmine to explain, but they’ve acknowledged that it’s there) to MOVE THROUGH SPACE AND TIME. We know it has happened at least twice during the show. We know there is an ancient wooden wheel that is part of the controls or maybe the only control tool on this island. We know that turning that control expels the individual to the same location on earth every time, but at some point in the future.

What the island has done, what we have witnessed, is not that much different from what many famous sci fi ufo’s do in the movies. They always have a mysterious huge power source, they have shields that create a bubble where the weather is always 78 degrees inside, and g force won’t kill you for making very sharp turns, and many of them are able to basically teleport to a different location by creating a wormhole and punching through it. THE ISLAND HAS ALL OF THAT. It doesn’t have to be a 3 mile wide silver disc to qualify as an alien transport system. Think outside that 1950’s stereotypical box. Think back to Desmond’s snow globe reference.

The problem I suspect for Jacob and Anti-Jacob is that the island is pre-programmed to do what it does, and they were tasked with maintaining it and letting it run its course. What is that course? Well that’s where the references from last night were amazing, and for me, it was the best Lost episode ever.

Before we review the evidence, let’s go back to the Jacob and Anti-Jacob exchange, and read it from the perspective outlined above, and assume you’re were watching 2 different alien entities with different abilities as the scene unfolds.

Assume they’ve been doing this for god-knows-how-long already and it’s the 1800’s, and Jacob is content with his place on the island and his role of assisting humanity with “the test”. He has faith in us. Assume that Anti-Jacob is absolutely sick of doing this, has no faith in humanity ever succeeding, and want to force the issue by ending “the test” so he can get out of here. Now, here it is again.

Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship.

Anti-Jacob: I am. How did they find the island?

Jacob- You'll have to ask when they get here.

Anti-Jacob: I don’t have to ask, you brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong aren’t you? (This references "the test", and their assigment or mission)

Jacob: You ARE wrong.

Anti-Jacob: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same. (Not a fan of humaity)

Jacob: But it only ends once, anything that happens before that, its just progress.

Anti-Jacob: You have any idea how badly I want to kill you? (Read: Do you have any idea how sick I am of these humans and these cycles, I want to end this and go home, they're not going to figure it out)

Jacob: Yes

Anti-Jacob: One of these days, sooner or later, I’m gonna find a loop hole my friend. (I'm done, I'm going to spend the next few hundred years manipulating the variables to create a loophole so I can end this, and I don't care what that means to this planet and this race.)

Jacob: And when you do, I’ll be right here. (We're aliens and we don't die easily, and you know YOU can't kill me, so have at it)

Anti-Jacob: Always nice talking to you Jacob.

Jacob: Nice talking to you too.

That scene took place in the 1800’s, assumedly with the Black Rock or a similar era vessel off shore. So at the end of the episode it is 2007, it has taken hundreds of years to accomplish, but somehow though manipulation, Anti-Jacob has found his loophole though Locke.

The scene on the beach looked like they’d had that same conversation about humans for years, there is a certain detachment in their tone about “people” and “humanity”. What was significant about it was that it was probably the first time that Anti-Jacob had made that exact threat to Jacob. A threat that he carries out at the end of the episode. The writers usually do this, they set up in the first scene what they conclude in the last.

Why didn’t he just kill Jacob? How was Ben able to do so? Not sure, we can theorize about that all summer, but it would seem likely that the two can’t directly destroy each other. Anti-Jacob needed to manipulate Ben and use Locke to accomplish his “loophole”.

We don’t have enough information about the two of them at this point, but that is obviously a focus of season 6. Let the speculation begin in other threads.

Support and References to other sci fi shows and themes

Let’s get on to the support and the references. First, I loved that they started the scene showing Jacob frying a fish and eating it. Classic misdirection from the writers, they do this all the time. They want you to think that this is just some guy stranded on the island, and that he’s human. When asked if he wants any, Anti-Jacob says “No thanks, I just ate.” Like these two need to eat. Come on, they’ve been there for hundreds, if not thousands of years. More proof that Jacob is comfortable with his assignment and even likes partaking in the local food chain. Anti-Jacob, not so much.

Swan Station Irony –

I found it ironic that these two ancient aliens seem to be in a similar situation to Desmond and Kelvin, from the standpoint that you have 2 guys stuck in a situation, and one guy wants to get out of it, no matter what the repercussions may be to everyone else and the world. I’m betting right now that the stakes will be huge for all humanity when Anti-Jacob tries to end “the test” next season and get out of his predicament. In fact, I think with some direction from Alpert, the remaining humans are going to start to realize that the comments made by Eloise Hawking, the rants of Desmond about saving the world, and the threats of the impending battle that is coming all foreshadow this.

Walt’s Comic from the Pilot –

Do a search for mine and anyone else’s previous threads about the Comic book. I bought it within weeks of the pilot and when I watched a video interview yesterday of Damon Lindeloff on Entertainment Weekly’s website, Damon’s tease for the episode was that it would be a “very touching episode”. (See the 4th clip)

http://www.ew.com/ew/package/0,,1550...id=22714570001

In case you missed it, Jacob touched every single human he interacted with in the Incident episode last night. This to me denoted a power of suggestion. Guess who had something similar to this? The alien in the Comic book, that’s who. He could control people’s minds, and he was stranded on earth. See the similarities? My favorite part of all of this, is that in classic fashion, TPTB (Damon and Carlton) staunchly refuted for 2 seasons that time travel AND aliens had anything to do with the show. I will post links to my own threads from early on where I would catch them contradicting themselves in statements, and as many of you know, I was part of a group that were the very first to call shenanigans on them about 4 or 5 episodes in. I knew time was a part of the show, and have the time stamps to prove it.

This is nothing different now. They later came out and admitted that to throw people off, they had to lie, and yes, time was a huge aspect to the show. This is now obviously fact. The same thing is coming for the involvement of ancient aliens, so get ready for it now. You really think that Jacob and Anti-Jacob are going to be explained in the end as humans or ghosts?

Indiana Jones 4

I wonder sometimes if TPTB saw the ending to Indy 4 and got kind of ticked. It’s not the same as what is happening with Lost, but the concept of something being left behind where later on, once someone advances to a point where they can solve the puzzle or pass the test, something huge happens, is similar. In Indy 4, it was just about a ship booting up and going home, taking with it its collection of artifacts from the human race. Basically, it was like an off-world museum collection system. With Lost, I believe the implications of what happens if Anti-Jacob succeeds are very bed for humanity. There may be a very bad penalty if humans are deemed unable to pass “the test”. Or on a smaller scale, Anti-Jacob may be trying to get the island-as-a-ship to go back to his home world. The final turn of the donkey wheel may be just that. Perhaps you only get so many moves around the earth and resets to the cycle before something bad happens? Again, we’ll find out in season 6.

Star Trek TNG and the Q Continuum

Obvious to me, this entire season of Lost has references that were made to the series finale, All Good Things (read the IMBD synapses here).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111281/plotsummary

It’s the episode where Picard is jumping back and forth in time to solve the puzzle of an anomaly in the neutral zone that threatens the earth if it keeps growing. In the end, Q shows up and explains the test to him and says “I didn’t think you had it in you.” There was another episode titled Cause and Effect (read the IMBD synapses here).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0162905/

In it, there is a time loop paradox situation, and eventually, Picard realizes that all his previous attempts doing different things to save the ship keep failing, and maybe the best thing to do is nothing, and he moves the ship into the fissure, which will kill everyone, but in fact, it ends the loop. Picard is successful and solves the puzzle. Classic stuff in general, with the superior race ultimately studying the evolution and advancement of an inferior race and testing them. Again, solving the time loop of the island is probably “the test” for whatever humans stumble onto or are brought to the island. Except its obviously taking a lot longer than Anti-Jacob has patience for. Similar situations that also popped in my head were the judging of humans by the aliens in the movie The Abyss.

Groundhog Day –
Yes, stop laughing, Groundhog day. Maybe not a direct reference here, but read the exchange again. Jacob and Anti-Jacob are aware of the repeating time cycles. They mention it. My guess is that Jacob is like Bill Murray where he is systematically building on his previous successes, one move at a time. He may only find out the outcome of one new situation, but it will help the next time through. That is why we finally saw the real Jacob in the real world, using his powers of influence and touching these people. He needs to keep bringing the same people back to the island so that humanity has a better chance of passing “the test”. He is stacking the deck in our favor. He is doing what Eloise Hawking was trying to do when she said they had to make conditions as similar as they could. I mean come on, he touched Hurly and then next thing you know, Hurly is on that plane. That took a power.

The ultimate question is going to be, was Miles right about doing nothing, or was Faraday right about the Nuke ending the loop and being the variable. If you subscribe to the other “tests” referenced, like the Q scenario, sometimes doing the thing that you kills you all is the way to pass the test. Maybe that is what gets them back to the year 2007 like Faraday speculated. And how did they get that far? They did it with help from Jacob nudging them along each cycle though. See….Groundhog Day.

This revelation for me was huge, because I always wondered: WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF ALL THE INTERCONNECTIONS BETWEEN THESE CHARACTERS? Well, this gives us a probable explanation. They NEED to go to the island and go back to the island over and over again because that is how humanity is figuring out ‘the test”. And thanks to the advancing science of the DHARMA Initiative and the Lamp Post, humanity had reached a technologically advanced state that now affords us multiple shots at the target, because now (in 2007) the island can be located! That’s getting closer to passing “the test”.

Stargate –

Another Egyptian themed movie, with an alien using a human body as a vessel, taking the human form, and powers to scramble people’s brains and kill them by touching them. Sound familiar? Jacob? The alien in the Walt’s comic book? You get the picture.

Dreamcatcher –

The only part that caught my attention here was at the end when Ben was surprised at Anti-Jacob (as Locke) and Jacob’s meeting, saying, “You two know each other?” It reminded me of the end of that Stephen King movie where you have a human watching bad alien and a good alien, except the good alien has been in human form, Duddits, as played by Donnie Walberg. I got a similar vibe there, that this is a very old power struggle between two entities that are similar but have unique powers. If I had to guess, I would say Jacob and his touch powers of influence are able to leave the island. I’m not sure if Anti-Jacob is Smokey, or if Smokey works with Anti-Jacob, but I would bet he can’t leave the force field bubble that surrounds the island, so he has to work with what he has (and who he has) on the island. He’s more of an influencer. I see the arguments both ways about him being or not being Smokey, I suspect that will be a key debate all offseason.

In conclusion, I add all this up, and I get the same thing: ancient aliens and their technology. Just like when they said it wans’t time travel, I knew they were lying and that it WAS indeed time travel. The ancient alien concept works so well because you don’t have to explain the science of the show in 21st century human terms, it goes back so long ago and is so advanced, you don’t even need a conventional ship. They just need what the island was built to be (wooden wheel and all): a test for humanity, a way to study humans in conflict, outside of their normal environment, and somehow take all that information and bring it back to the alien homeworld in the end, or destroy earth if we fail, who knows.

In science, testing things at their limitations is a common practice. If you think about things like the Prime Directive from Star Trek, and consider how different advanced civilizations may study new species when they find them, it all ads up. This may be the way this particular civilization has chosen to observe humanity.

Big Picture, that’s how they were able to pull off a character driven show all this time, its ultimately about this group of people and why they’ve been chosen to take this test multiple times and whether they’ll succeed at it. The storylines and complicated rivalries between Ben and Widmore and the others and crashers make up 90% of the show, but it all is going to end somewhere, and they’ve alluded to the fact the ending is going to be huge.

Next season will be all about the human struggle to figure the loop out (if the nuke hasn’t already solved it, which I suspect it has) and deal with the repercussions of Anti-Jacob and what he’s trying to accomplish, which is probably not good for humanity.

This is what I think is happening with the island (which is what I've always studied) and I may be totally wrong here, as we all have been before. Fire away, I have to get some work done. And please, if you have posted similar elements or threads before, please post links. Thanks.

Pinnerman

Someone has way too much time on their hands.

Did you have to quote the whole thing?

I thought it was a great episode - I really like the 2 alternate realities. It shows how average their lives were off the island and I like how they are still connected to each other.

nyk4ever wrote:

djsunyc wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:at this point, I'm pretty certain jacob is the bad guy and esau is the good guy

why do you say that?

variety of reasons really, obviously no straight proof and as of right now, it appears jacob has done nothing but good for everyone, but i think its all done to feed into his own agenda. heres just a few thoughts that have went through my mind...

- nothing on lost is ever as it seems
- the smoke monster/esau did not kill good people, it only killed people who were bad
- jacob set the stage for innocent people to die just to get the O6 back to the island
- jacob has people protecting him (cesar, illana, that other guy) who use weapons and do kill people
- jacob resurrects in sayid (if you believe that's what happened at the end of last episode) a man who has killed all his life and esau resurrects in locke who is a good man.

i mean that's just a few things, i know im forgetting some, but it's early.

couple of things are wrong with your theory. smoke monster killed mr. ecko who was a good man. sayid has killed people but so has locke. also eseu didnt resurrect locke. he just shape shifted. as far as the people dying to get back to the island, are you referring to the second plane crash? i thought most of them survived? the interesting thing is to see richards relationship with esau.

jazz74 wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

djsunyc wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:at this point, I'm pretty certain jacob is the bad guy and esau is the good guy

why do you say that?

variety of reasons really, obviously no straight proof and as of right now, it appears jacob has done nothing but good for everyone, but i think its all done to feed into his own agenda. heres just a few thoughts that have went through my mind...

- nothing on lost is ever as it seems
- the smoke monster/esau did not kill good people, it only killed people who were bad
- jacob set the stage for innocent people to die just to get the O6 back to the island
- jacob has people protecting him (cesar, illana, that other guy) who use weapons and do kill people
- jacob resurrects in sayid (if you believe that's what happened at the end of last episode) a man who has killed all his life and esau resurrects in locke who is a good man.

i mean that's just a few things, i know im forgetting some, but it's early.

couple of things are wrong with your theory. smoke monster killed mr. ecko who was a good man. sayid has killed people but so has locke. also eseu didnt resurrect locke. he just shape shifted. as far as the people dying to get back to the island, are you referring to the second plane crash? i thought most of them survived? the interesting thing is to see richards relationship with esau.

ecko was not a good man lol. he was a gangster whokilled, kidnapped and enslaved children.

who has locke killed?

eko did not repent for his sins so smokey killed him. he gave ben the same opportunity, and ben did apologize for getting alex killed...so smokey spared him. i don't think it's necessarily about good or bad...it's about redemption and taking responsibility.

i don't think the actress that played boone's sis was available for the filming so they just said she was content in staying in australia. interestingly enough, boone this time was fine with that. and locke seemed to be more at peace than the ticked off depressed locked in season 1 after being rejected for the walkabout. so both of them, i think, are headed for better times...

charlie tho, i always felt had to die and he will.

what's interesting is that locke was able to walk on the island b/c he believed. and locke2 (i'll tag characters with #2 for the alternate story going on) looks like he's going to be able to walk in LA courtesy of jack.

and it looks like juliet and sawyer will find each other off island as juliet seemed to have flashed to that before she died on island.

nyk4ever wrote:

jazz74 wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

djsunyc wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:at this point, I'm pretty certain jacob is the bad guy and esau is the good guy

why do you say that?

variety of reasons really, obviously no straight proof and as of right now, it appears jacob has done nothing but good for everyone, but i think its all done to feed into his own agenda. heres just a few thoughts that have went through my mind...

- nothing on lost is ever as it seems
- the smoke monster/esau did not kill good people, it only killed people who were bad
- jacob set the stage for innocent people to die just to get the O6 back to the island
- jacob has people protecting him (cesar, illana, that other guy) who use weapons and do kill people
- jacob resurrects in sayid (if you believe that's what happened at the end of last episode) a man who has killed all his life and esau resurrects in locke who is a good man.

i mean that's just a few things, i know im forgetting some, but it's early.

couple of things are wrong with your theory. smoke monster killed mr. ecko who was a good man. sayid has killed people but so has locke. also eseu didnt resurrect locke. he just shape shifted. as far as the people dying to get back to the island, are you referring to the second plane crash? i thought most of them survived? the interesting thing is to see richards relationship with esau.

ecko was not a good man lol. he was a gangster whokilled, kidnapped and enslaved children.

who has locke killed?
[/quote

didnt ecko redeem himself and became a priest and reluctantly saved a village? became a priest in honor of his brother? he also helped many on the island. all the characters besides hurley had a shady past and redeemed themselves. locke killed the parachuter who called for the boat to pick the passengers up.