Knicks · Please Trade Toney Douglas (page 4)

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The pg position in this system is the foundation of its success..without a high IQ pg who can score..this system is a mess and the coach will get fired..I rather have a 40 yr old nash

I was thinking about that statement the other day, trying to figure out if there was ANY system that could be run without a decent PG and be an elite team (say top 10 in league). The only one I came up with was the Triangle Offense, but then realistically you need dominant wings and post players.

There are some teams that get away with average play at the PG (I am talking playoff teams) - Miami comes to mind, but realistically Wade, LeBron facilitate that position. Perhaps one could cite Philly, but Collins has done a smart thing and handed the ball to Iggy.

I agree..but toney isn't a flat out scorer, he is not a great defender (he's ok) passer, rebounder ect..all he's just fast..

Problems come up when you rely on him to do anything consistant..we got a couple of top notch super stars in there prime..is it wise to wiat til thess (young guys) develope while your super stars start to break down ala EWING...when we traded for melo they they scratch the devolping stage.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying about TD. What is the normal timeline for developing a PG, especially one who is a convert SG? Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

TD can be a decent defender, I think he overdoes it at time. Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

I don't think anyone thinks is anything near a first line PG, nor should be he. Boston exposed him, but that's no surprise.

TD looked decent (at best) starting when Chauncey first went down after the Denver trade.

TD has also played hurt all season, have no idea how that has impacted his defense (getting around screens) or offense when shooting. How does the revolving door of players impact his development?

The problem with your line of thinking (not saying it's entirely wrong) is that, its's a process, and just like billups (early career), it's going to take time and multipe trades to different teams before he gets it..

The NBA has a over flow of combo guards, those are the first to get traded, the barbosa's, the nates robinsons, crawfords...there a dime a dozen..they can't guard traditional 2g, and the can't fully run an ofense like a pg, you just throw them in there for energy, scoring, or defense.

JC..look how long it took him to actually get it, he's in his what...7th season.

When your 6 4" and under, unless you can score like Ellis, AI, Steph and them, "CONSISTANLY", your gonna play your career as a trade chip.

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The pg position in this system is the foundation of its success..without a high IQ pg who can score..this system is a mess and the coach will get fired..I rather have a 40 yr old nash

I was thinking about that statement the other day, trying to figure out if there was ANY system that could be run without a decent PG and be an elite team (say top 10 in league). The only one I came up with was the Triangle Offense, but then realistically you need dominant wings and post players.

There are some teams that get away with average play at the PG (I am talking playoff teams) - Miami comes to mind, but realistically Wade, LeBron facilitate that position. Perhaps one could cite Philly, but Collins has done a smart thing and handed the ball to Iggy.

I agree..but toney isn't a flat out scorer, he is not a great defender (he's ok) passer, rebounder ect..all he's just fast..

Problems come up when you rely on him to do anything consistant..we got a couple of top notch super stars in there prime..is it wise to wiat til thess (young guys) develope while your super stars start to break down ala EWING...when we traded for melo they they scratch the devolping stage.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying about TD. What is the normal timeline for developing a PG, especially one who is a convert SG? Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

TD can be a decent defender, I think he overdoes it at time. Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

I don't think anyone thinks is anything near a first line PG, nor should be he. Boston exposed him, but that's no surprise.

TD looked decent (at best) starting when Chauncey first went down after the Denver trade.

TD has also played hurt all season, have no idea how that has impacted his defense (getting around screens) or offense when shooting. How does the revolving door of players impact his development?

The problem with your line of thinking (not saying it's entirely wrong) is that, its's a process, and just like billups (early career), it's going to take time and multipe trades to different teams before he gets it..

The NBA has a over flow of combo guards, those are the first to get traded, the barbosa's, the nates robinsons, crawfords...there a dime a dozen..they can't guard traditional 2g, and the can't fully run an ofense like a pg, you just throw them in there for energy, scoring, or defense.

JC..look how long it took him to actually get it, he's in his what...7th season.

When your 6 4" and under, unless you can score like Ellis, AI, Steph and them, "CONSISTANLY", your gonna play your career as a trade chip.

understood. What I look at is progress and willingness to learn and giving 100%. I see those in TD. I don't see the PG skills, but to give up too soon at his price is prob not good.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The pg position in this system is the foundation of its success..without a high IQ pg who can score..this system is a mess and the coach will get fired..I rather have a 40 yr old nash

I was thinking about that statement the other day, trying to figure out if there was ANY system that could be run without a decent PG and be an elite team (say top 10 in league). The only one I came up with was the Triangle Offense, but then realistically you need dominant wings and post players.

There are some teams that get away with average play at the PG (I am talking playoff teams) - Miami comes to mind, but realistically Wade, LeBron facilitate that position. Perhaps one could cite Philly, but Collins has done a smart thing and handed the ball to Iggy.

I agree..but toney isn't a flat out scorer, he is not a great defender (he's ok) passer, rebounder ect..all he's just fast..

Problems come up when you rely on him to do anything consistant..we got a couple of top notch super stars in there prime..is it wise to wiat til thess (young guys) develope while your super stars start to break down ala EWING...when we traded for melo they they scratch the devolping stage.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying about TD. What is the normal timeline for developing a PG, especially one who is a convert SG? Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

TD can be a decent defender, I think he overdoes it at time. Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

I don't think anyone thinks is anything near a first line PG, nor should be he. Boston exposed him, but that's no surprise.

TD looked decent (at best) starting when Chauncey first went down after the Denver trade.

TD has also played hurt all season, have no idea how that has impacted his defense (getting around screens) or offense when shooting. How does the revolving door of players impact his development?

The problem with your line of thinking (not saying it's entirely wrong) is that, its's a process, and just like billups (early career), it's going to take time and multipe trades to different teams before he gets it..

The NBA has a over flow of combo guards, those are the first to get traded, the barbosa's, the nates robinsons, crawfords...there a dime a dozen..they can't guard traditional 2g, and the can't fully run an ofense like a pg, you just throw them in there for energy, scoring, or defense.

JC..look how long it took him to actually get it, he's in his what...7th season.

When your 6 4" and under, unless you can score like Ellis, AI, Steph and them, "CONSISTANLY", your gonna play your career as a trade chip.

understood. What I look at is progress and willingness to learn and giving 100%. I see those in TD. I don't see the PG skills, but to give up too soon at his price is prob not good.

Would you do a straight up trade of TD for Marcus Thorton

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The pg position in this system is the foundation of its success..without a high IQ pg who can score..this system is a mess and the coach will get fired..I rather have a 40 yr old nash

I was thinking about that statement the other day, trying to figure out if there was ANY system that could be run without a decent PG and be an elite team (say top 10 in league). The only one I came up with was the Triangle Offense, but then realistically you need dominant wings and post players.

There are some teams that get away with average play at the PG (I am talking playoff teams) - Miami comes to mind, but realistically Wade, LeBron facilitate that position. Perhaps one could cite Philly, but Collins has done a smart thing and handed the ball to Iggy.

I agree..but toney isn't a flat out scorer, he is not a great defender (he's ok) passer, rebounder ect..all he's just fast..

Problems come up when you rely on him to do anything consistant..we got a couple of top notch super stars in there prime..is it wise to wiat til thess (young guys) develope while your super stars start to break down ala EWING...when we traded for melo they they scratch the devolping stage.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying about TD. What is the normal timeline for developing a PG, especially one who is a convert SG? Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

TD can be a decent defender, I think he overdoes it at time. Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

I don't think anyone thinks is anything near a first line PG, nor should be he. Boston exposed him, but that's no surprise.

TD looked decent (at best) starting when Chauncey first went down after the Denver trade.

TD has also played hurt all season, have no idea how that has impacted his defense (getting around screens) or offense when shooting. How does the revolving door of players impact his development?

The problem with your line of thinking (not saying it's entirely wrong) is that, its's a process, and just like billups (early career), it's going to take time and multipe trades to different teams before he gets it..

The NBA has a over flow of combo guards, those are the first to get traded, the barbosa's, the nates robinsons, crawfords...there a dime a dozen..they can't guard traditional 2g, and the can't fully run an ofense like a pg, you just throw them in there for energy, scoring, or defense.

JC..look how long it took him to actually get it, he's in his what...7th season.

When your 6 4" and under, unless you can score like Ellis, AI, Steph and them, "CONSISTANLY", your gonna play your career as a trade chip.

understood. What I look at is progress and willingness to learn and giving 100%. I see those in TD. I don't see the PG skills, but to give up too soon at his price is prob not good.

Would you do a straight up trade of TD for Marcus Thorton

i don't even know who that is

I think TD has the potential to become a lock down defender and a 3 point specialist. He works hard and gives 100% on and off the court. It is only his 2nd year guys...
He lacks PG skills, how to run a team, makes poor decisions, and sometimes takes bad shots.

ALL of the above are skills I can see him improving on. Most importantly, not having a shot blocking center to back up TD hurts the team the most.

Defensively, we need to add the right players needed to play team defense
We need to add players that can play great team defense like Barnes, Tony Allen, and another back up PF as well.
We already have Amare and Melo being under average defenders. we need the SG, Center, and backup G/F and a PF.

Offensively, we need players that can also dribble, penetrate, and be a shoot threat on the court.
We lacked ball movement throughout the series. We need players that are capable and willing to earn the first step of the defense and SWING the ball.
The only ball handlers we have are NONE.
Billup's just doesn't have the legs at his point of his career.
Melo is a decent ball handler but he and Amare are on their downhills of their physical career.
It also doesn't help, EVERY TIME Melo and Amare touch the ball, 90% of the time they would not look to give it up. That plays right to our opponents defense.

We can blame the trade, we gave away all of our depth and picks. I honestly believe the pre melo trade Knicks would have won the first 2 games at Boston.
We needed to add to the core of the pre melo trade Knicks.
Felton
Wilson Chandler
Gallo
Mosgov
Anthony Randolph
1 first rounder
2 2nd rounders *GS picks*

for that price we should have at least got back Nene and I believe we are missing Wilson Chandler the most from the trade, if Fields was traded instaed...

Billups/TD
Wilson Chandler/Sean Williams/Walker
Melo/Sean Williams/Walker
Amare/Turiaf/Jeffries
Nene/Turiaf/Jeffries

We gave up way too much for melo, but for the price we payed, we should have got back Nene.
Even this team isn't enough to make us contenders but we only need to add a Center. and a player or 2 to give us depth...

RonRon wrote:I think TD has the potential to become a lock down defender and a 3 point specialist. He works hard and gives 100% on and off the court. It is only his 2nd year guys...
He lacks PG skills, how to run a team, makes poor decisions, and sometimes takes bad shots.

ALL of the above are skills I can see him improving on. Most importantly, not having a shot blocking center to back up TD hurts the team the most.

Defensively, we need to add the right players needed to play team defense
We need to add players that can play great team defense like Barnes, Tony Allen, and another back up PF as well.
We already have Amare and Melo being under average defenders. we need the SG, Center, and backup G/F and a PF.

Offensively, we need players that can also dribble, penetrate, and be a shoot threat on the court.
We lacked ball movement throughout the series. We need players that are capable and willing to earn the first step of the defense and SWING the ball.
The only ball handlers we have are NONE.
Billup's just doesn't have the legs at his point of his career.
Melo is a decent ball handler but he and Amare are on their downhills of their physical career.
It also doesn't help, EVERY TIME Melo and Amare touch the ball, 90% of the time they would not look to give it up. That plays right to our opponents defense.

We can blame the trade, we gave away all of our depth and picks. I honestly believe the pre melo trade Knicks would have won the first 2 games at Boston.
We needed to add to the core of the pre melo trade Knicks.
Felton
Wilson Chandler
Gallo
Mosgov
Anthony Randolph
1 first rounder
2 2nd rounders *GS picks*

for that price we should have at least got back Nene and I believe we are missing Wilson Chandler the most from the trade, if Fields was traded instaed...

Billups/TD
Wilson Chandler/Sean Williams/Walker
Melo/Sean Williams/Walker
Amare/Turiaf/Jeffries
Nene/Turiaf/Jeffries

We gave up way too much for melo, but for the price we payed, we should have got back Nene.
Even this team isn't enough to make us contenders but we only need to add a Center. and a player or 2 to give us depth...

Sorry we cant wait on potential. Our time is NOW.

Juice wrote:

s3231 wrote:Keep in mind, guy was playing with a hurt shoulder....if Billups was healthy, we probably see less of him.

Douglas played like crap today but have seen too many good things out of him this season to give up on him this early.

Always some kind of excuse yet with that hurt shoulder it never stopped him from shooting

And what does that have to do with the fact that while "guarding-if that is what its called" Rondo he would just continue to back peddle before jumping out of the way, giving Rondo an easy layup.

Over and over he had the opportunity to stop and plant his feet to stop his drive. All HE HAD TO TO WAS STOP AND PLANT HIS DAMN FEET. It was like he wanted Rondo to have easy layup after layup.

sorry but I had to say it twice.

He continued to go under screens over and over to be burned by Allen and Rondo. Carter played grown man defense which as said is why we didn't get blown out.

I could care less if his shot was falling cause he is out there to PRESSURE THE BALL, not backpeddle into the press row.

I don't want Douglas being the PG in the long run (unless he really really improves) but he is ok for 10 - 15 minutes a game, considering we have to ISO scores. Douglas is a great SG off the bench and GREAT for the money - can't oversea that. He was hurt and I hope that is an ongoing problem as the guy runs into people like it's going out of style. At one point I thought his defense was great, but it's only great as far as denying the ball. His defense once a guy has the ball is just ok - strangely enough, even with his speed, quick pg's eat him up.

I think it's WAY too soon to get rid of Douglas, though I would trade him to move up in the draft (but the pick would have to be pretty decent). I would also consider him in a trade, but really, he fills a void and we got lots of them. For the money we CAN'T get anything close.

Douglas is not our problem. I wish he could play smarter like Fields. I wish Fields could score more like Douglas. Perhaps next year he will be a better scorer as the guy is too Smart not to improve ala David Lee.