Knicks · Donnie Walsh was overrated. (page 3)
AnubisADL wrote:smackeddog wrote:
No one, and I mean no one could have traded Eddy Curry- he was as untradeable as a player can possibly get!As for Jeffries- we gave up our 2012 pick and Jordan Hill. Jordan Hill is essentially worth nothing- I don't begrudge Walsh trading him, but I do think his biggest mistake was drafting him in the first place- for me that draft was a disaster in that they were so many good players available at the position we needed (PG), but instead we picked a poor PF.
The main problems with the Jeffries trade is that a) we've lost our 2012 pick, in what will be a deep draft, and b)it meant we couldn't use draft picks in the Melo trade, which in turn led to us giving up more players than we otherwise may have had to- we could definitely have kept Mosgov, and maybe we could have kept chandler or gallo (but that's no certain thing). However without the Jeffries trade we couldn't of signed Mosgov and Felton anyways, so the Melo trade wouldn't have got done. So again I won't hold it against Walsh.
Jamal and Zach had to go, we couldn't build around them and their contacts would've stopped us signing anyone of significance.
- People said no one would take Zach Randolph. Baron Davis was supposedly untradeable as well. ANYONE is tradeable for the right price.
- We gave up our 2012 pick which effected the Melo trade since we couldnt include picks.
- Im not disagreeing with trading Zach Randolph or Jamal Crawford. Im saying it was that difficult to trade them since they were traded summer 2009 anyway.
Add Rashard Lewis, Gilbert Arenas, Hedo Turkeyglue, to the "they are untradeable" list
Just recently this guy was clamoring to trade Eddy's expiring for Gilbert Arenas.
Just stop.
Markji wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Nalod wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not say Walsh did a bad job. I'm saying he was average. None of his moves were home runs or spectacular.Your looking for miracles.
who is your top 5 Gm's you consider the benchmark?
Most GM's are average overall. Some are better than others.
Walsh didnt excel in any particular area so that is why he is average. He isnt a great drafter. He doesnt make great trades. I mean really. Anyone could have given Amare a max deal.
Yes....but Amare had his choice of where he wanted to go, and that was to the team that Walsh was in charge of. Do you really think Amare would have signed here if Isiah was in charge. Actually we never would have had the cap space to sign Amare if Isiah was in charge.And my personal opinion, we lost LeBron when he and CAA found out that Dolan was still in charge and he sent Isiah.Also, IMO, it was Dolan who got involved and paid an outrageous amount in the Jeffrey's trade to Houston, just like he did in the Melo trade.
Did they not host Amar'e's signing at Isiah's house? Or wasn't he involved very much in the recruiting process? I'm not saying this bum deserves credit but let's not act like he was the plague to Amar'e.
Markji wrote:
Yes....but Amare had his choice of where he wanted to go, and that was to the team that Walsh was in charge of. Do you really think Amare would have signed here if Isiah was in charge. Actually we never would have had the cap space to sign Amare if Isiah was in charge.And my personal opinion, we lost LeBron when he and CAA found out that Dolan was still in charge and he sent Isiah.Also, IMO, it was Dolan who got involved and paid an outrageous amount in the Jeffrey's trade to Houston, just like he did in the Melo trade.
Amare would have signed if Stephen Hawkins was the GM. We were to only team to offer him a 100 million dollar fully guaranteed contract.
We never had Lebron to lose.
Childs2Dudley wrote:You guys are arguing with an admitted Isiah fan.Just recently this guy was clamoring to trade Eddy's expiring for Gilbert Arenas.
Just stop.
Unless you can actually debate topics/discussions at hand.... instead of resorting to past history in like 90% of your post bow out. It's okay to inform every once in a while but we all are familiar with each other at this point as we've been around for some time.
Juice wrote:Childs2Dudley wrote:You guys are arguing with an admitted Isiah fan.Just recently this guy was clamoring to trade Eddy's expiring for Gilbert Arenas.
Just stop.
Unless you can actually debate topics/discussions at hand.... instead of resorting to past history in like 90% of your post bow out. It's okay to inform every once in a while but we all are familiar with each other at this point as we've been around for some time.
Nobody's familiar with you, TrueBlue. You can't run away from your past.
I've debated and discussed thousands of times. Your discussions usually involved lame nicknames and veiled insults and generally never make much sense.
Don't tell me how to post. I don't tell you to stop posting.
Juice wrote:Markji wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Nalod wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not say Walsh did a bad job. I'm saying he was average. None of his moves were home runs or spectacular.Your looking for miracles.
who is your top 5 Gm's you consider the benchmark?
Most GM's are average overall. Some are better than others.
Walsh didnt excel in any particular area so that is why he is average. He isnt a great drafter. He doesnt make great trades. I mean really. Anyone could have given Amare a max deal.
Yes....but Amare had his choice of where he wanted to go, and that was to the team that Walsh was in charge of. Do you really think Amare would have signed here if Isiah was in charge. Actually we never would have had the cap space to sign Amare if Isiah was in charge.
Did they not host Amar'e's signing at Isiah's house? Or wasn't he involved very much in the recruiting process? I'm not saying this bum deserves credit but let's not act like he was the plague to Amar'e.
We never would have been able to sign Amare if Isiah was still in charge, and you can probably say the same about acquiring Anthony. This is really what you have to look at when you compare Walsh and Isiah. Walsh was not perfect, but he was trying to pull the Knicks out of a hole that Isiah basically got us into.
I look at criticism of the Obama administration in the same way as people who choose to criticize Walsh too harsly. He is being criticized for not immediately getting the nation back on track after Shrub Bush presided 8 years of fantasy-land economics and phantom oversight by the government and any other financial watchdogs, which culminated in the Great Recession.
I'm sure Walsh did things he would not have done if he had been in position of power in terms of cap flexibility, but you can only play with the hand you are dealt, and in my estimation he did a decent job with the resources and limitations he had to work with.
Paladin55 wrote:Juice wrote:Markji wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Nalod wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not say Walsh did a bad job. I'm saying he was average. None of his moves were home runs or spectacular.Your looking for miracles.
who is your top 5 Gm's you consider the benchmark?
Most GM's are average overall. Some are better than others.
Walsh didnt excel in any particular area so that is why he is average. He isnt a great drafter. He doesnt make great trades. I mean really. Anyone could have given Amare a max deal.
Yes....but Amare had his choice of where he wanted to go, and that was to the team that Walsh was in charge of. Do you really think Amare would have signed here if Isiah was in charge. Actually we never would have had the cap space to sign Amare if Isiah was in charge.
Did they not host Amar'e's signing at Isiah's house? Or wasn't he involved very much in the recruiting process? I'm not saying this bum deserves credit but let's not act like he was the plague to Amar'e.
We never would have been able to sign Amare if Isiah was still in charge, and you can probably say the same about acquiring Anthony. This is really what you have to look at when you compare Walsh and Isiah. Walsh was not perfect, but he was trying to pull the Knicks out of a hole that Isiah basically got us into.I look at criticism of the Obama administration in the same way as people who choose to criticize Walsh too harsly. He is being criticized for not immediately getting the nation back on track after Shrub Bush presided 8 years of fantasy-land economics and phantom oversight by the government and any other financial watchdogs, which culminated in the Great Recession.
I'm sure Walsh did things he would not have done if he had been in position of power in terms of cap flexibility, but you can only play with the hand you are dealt, and in my estimation he did a decent job with the resources and limitations he had to work with.
He did as good a job you can ask for. No GM is perfect. Even Jerry West has blemishes on his record. But he did the best he could and got us to a respectable position in a relatively short amount of time. You could not ask for much more.
The people still crying over overrated Brandon Jennings need to get a grip on reality. Sure he would be a better prospect than Jordan Hill. But the reality is he's not that good to cry over. We missed out but not on much. We traded Hill for cap space. We might have done the same with Jennings anyway. We needed that cap space to be legitimate players in free agency. If we don't do that deal, we don't get Felton and Mozgov. Jeffries, a first rounder and Hill for Felton and Mozgov works for me. It wasn't a great deal at the time, and it still isn't, but it's not that awful either.
Walsh's biggest blunder was hiring Mike D'Antoni. That he deserves to take criticism for. This coach does not have a championship system. His mindset is all wrong. It's surprising he hired this guy with his defensive background. Maybe he wanted to change his philosophy with the changing times but the decision was all wrong. Defense still wins championships.
Donnie Walsh as a GM was more than average. He was above average. He brought in Gallinari, Mozgov, Felton, Amare, Fields, Douglas (some still like him) and found guys like Shawne Williams on the trash heap. There's other guys I'm forgetting but the fact remains that the job he did here was good - very good. His praise is not undeserved. His task was not easy. He did the best job he could do working with an awful owner and an awful roster. Kudos to him.
Paladin55 wrote:Juice wrote:Markji wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Nalod wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not say Walsh did a bad job. I'm saying he was average. None of his moves were home runs or spectacular.Your looking for miracles.
who is your top 5 Gm's you consider the benchmark?
Most GM's are average overall. Some are better than others.
Walsh didnt excel in any particular area so that is why he is average. He isnt a great drafter. He doesnt make great trades. I mean really. Anyone could have given Amare a max deal.
Yes....but Amare had his choice of where he wanted to go, and that was to the team that Walsh was in charge of. Do you really think Amare would have signed here if Isiah was in charge. Actually we never would have had the cap space to sign Amare if Isiah was in charge.
Did they not host Amar'e's signing at Isiah's house? Or wasn't he involved very much in the recruiting process? I'm not saying this bum deserves credit but let's not act like he was the plague to Amar'e.
We never would have been able to sign Amare if Isiah was still in charge, and you can probably say the same about acquiring Anthony. This is really what you have to look at when you compare Walsh and Isiah. Walsh was not perfect, but he was trying to pull the Knicks out of a hole that Isiah basically got us into.I look at criticism of the Obama administration in the same way as people who choose to criticize Walsh too harsly. He is being criticized for not immediately getting the nation back on track after Shrub Bush presided 8 years of fantasy-land economics and phantom oversight by the government and any other financial watchdogs, which culminated in the Great Recession.
I'm sure Walsh did things he would not have done if he had been in position of power in terms of cap flexibility, but you can only play with the hand you are dealt, and in my estimation he did a decent job with the resources and limitations he had to work with.
Wrong Isiah and Grunwald(his hire) were talking about preserving cap before he was let go. If you think he wasn't infactuated at the possibility of obtaining Lebron and the likes in 2010 you're only fooling yourself and not following the team close enough. Obviously we only had a realistic shot at 1 big fish which proved to be Amar'e thanks to Phx not wanting to maximize his market value monetarily.
Juice wrote:Paladin55 wrote:Juice wrote:Markji wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Nalod wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not say Walsh did a bad job. I'm saying he was average. None of his moves were home runs or spectacular.Your looking for miracles.
who is your top 5 Gm's you consider the benchmark?
Most GM's are average overall. Some are better than others.
Walsh didnt excel in any particular area so that is why he is average. He isnt a great drafter. He doesnt make great trades. I mean really. Anyone could have given Amare a max deal.
Yes....but Amare had his choice of where he wanted to go, and that was to the team that Walsh was in charge of. Do you really think Amare would have signed here if Isiah was in charge. Actually we never would have had the cap space to sign Amare if Isiah was in charge.
Did they not host Amar'e's signing at Isiah's house? Or wasn't he involved very much in the recruiting process? I'm not saying this bum deserves credit but let's not act like he was the plague to Amar'e.
We never would have been able to sign Amare if Isiah was still in charge, and you can probably say the same about acquiring Anthony. This is really what you have to look at when you compare Walsh and Isiah. Walsh was not perfect, but he was trying to pull the Knicks out of a hole that Isiah basically got us into.I look at criticism of the Obama administration in the same way as people who choose to criticize Walsh too harsly. He is being criticized for not immediately getting the nation back on track after Shrub Bush presided 8 years of fantasy-land economics and phantom oversight by the government and any other financial watchdogs, which culminated in the Great Recession.
I'm sure Walsh did things he would not have done if he had been in position of power in terms of cap flexibility, but you can only play with the hand you are dealt, and in my estimation he did a decent job with the resources and limitations he had to work with.
Wrong Isiah and Grunwald(his hire) were talking about preserving cap before he was let go. If you think he wasn't infactuated at the possibility of obtaining Lebron and the likes in 2010 you're only fooling yourself and not following the team close enough. Obviously we only had a realistic shot at 1 big fish which proved to be Amar'e thanks to Phx not wanting to maximize his market value monetarily.
I'll go with Isiah's track record, and say little more. No guarantee that he would have changed, especially if he saw an opportunity to get someone he wanted. Not sure he had the discipline needed to do the kind of job Walsh did.
's dog house shortly there after, and was dumped anyway.You can look at his moves and call them average, but what makes them stellar is he did them with one of the worst owners in the league- and maybe that is why the Melo trade happened the way it did, and why Walsh is leaving.
Its a sad day for Knick fans, sadder still for those who don't realize how sad, but I am happy for Walsh- he shouldn't have to put up with the BS he has had to endure.
Bonn1997 wrote:Given that we were bidding against ourselves...
this claim is not exactly rock solid. i think there has been some indication that if the knicks didn't make the deal melo would be a net.
PresIke wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Given that we were bidding against ourselves...this claim is not exactly rock solid. i think there has been some indication that if the knicks didn't make the deal melo would be a net.
So what is wrong with that? The history will give the answer later.
Childs2Dudley wrote:
The people still crying over overrated Brandon Jennings need to get a grip on reality. Sure he would be a better prospect than Jordan Hill. But the reality is he's not that good to cry over. We missed out but not on much.
Some folks seem to forget that at the time the Knicks were still smarting from the Marbury fiasco, we had just gotten rid of one diva and at the time Jennings was talking to the press (before the draft) like he was the sequel. It doesn't look like he turned into one but I can't blame Walsh for wanting to avoid that potential headache. Doesn't excuse drafting Hill though, right off the bat he looked like the second coming of Chris Wilcox (not just the hair) and looks right now like a lesser version of the original.
Walsh made his mistakes but the positives outweigh the negatives IMO. Walsh made the Knicks respectable again, how long has it been since we could say that? The work isn't done but thank Dolan (and probably Isiah) for not letting him finish the job.
Basically he was in a work place were his previous boss was stealing, so when the new manager came in anything short of of that was an improvement. So no matter how bad the home is managed currently is never as bad when top guy was stealing money.
My only problem with Walsh was in his approach....... going with poker face in the Melo trade talks, dragging out that deal to a midnite deadline when you were willing to trade the player you got with the 8th pick, a 2012 pick and a swap 2011 just to move Jeffries 7 million 1 1/2 deal????
Geezus!!!!!!!! That is the definition of inconsistence.
Anji wrote:This thread kinda reminds me of a work situation of a friend.Basically he was in a work place were his previous boss was stealing, so when the new manager came in anything short of of that was an improvement. So no matter how bad the home is managed currently is never as bad when top guy was stealing money.
My only problem with Walsh was in his approach....... going with poker face in the Melo trade talks, dragging out that deal to a midnite deadline when you were willing to trade the player you got with the 8th pick, a 2012 pick and a swap 2011 just to move Jeffries 7 million 1 1/2 deal????
Geezus!!!!!!!! That is the definition of inconsistence.
Right. Donnie set the timeline on the Melo deal; Denver had no say in it.
Childs2Dudley wrote:You're an Isiah Thomas fan. Nothing more needs to be said.
Exactly what does one base being a "fan" of IT on? Other than being a fan of his playing career and the two rings?
What signings?
What draft picks? (Please don't tell me about DLee, until after your meds kick in)
What cap management?
What managerial/coaching decisions/prowess make someone a fan of IT as an NBA executive/coach, either here or anywhere else?
I truly don't get this. The man took a storied franchise and single-handedly ran it 5 miles below the septic line, as both the chief exec and coach.
And don't try to misdirect at JimmieBeansDolan. He does nothing but provide IT prostate relief and sign checks.
Papabear wrote:Papabear SaysDonnie Walsh did what he had to do to get under the cap but that year with Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford they would have made the playoffs and maybe into the second round. This would have made thier trade value much higher and we still would have gotten Amare and Melo plus some draft picks to our advantage if we only waited a little longer.
I will never forgive him for trading JC and Zach at the time he did, he did a nice job last off season, but overall he made some questionable moves his entire time at the helm.
I can't even remember the other coaching canidates, but he's more responsible for turning MDA's coaching into a questionable mockry
Only from what we read, it looked like Melo would not sign with Nets and thus Denver had to deal with us.
I think that is wrong, I think He would have gone to Jersey.
Question is could Donnie have lived with walking away? Regarding Deron, or others, might have then been other trades to make? Or when things open back up again for trades?
We just don't know all that goes on.
All GM's make mistakes. All GM's have hindsight to make them look good or bad. I don't blame Donnie for not taking Jennings.
Donnie had his reasons for not taking him.
Whats next, frying him for not giving a promise to Jimmer? 39 other teams wouldn't either.
Paladin55 wrote:Juice wrote:Paladin55 wrote:Juice wrote:Markji wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Nalod wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not say Walsh did a bad job. I'm saying he was average. None of his moves were home runs or spectacular.Your looking for miracles.
who is your top 5 Gm's you consider the benchmark?
Most GM's are average overall. Some are better than others.
Walsh didnt excel in any particular area so that is why he is average. He isnt a great drafter. He doesnt make great trades. I mean really. Anyone could have given Amare a max deal.
Yes....but Amare had his choice of where he wanted to go, and that was to the team that Walsh was in charge of. Do you really think Amare would have signed here if Isiah was in charge. Actually we never would have had the cap space to sign Amare if Isiah was in charge.
Did they not host Amar'e's signing at Isiah's house? Or wasn't he involved very much in the recruiting process? I'm not saying this bum deserves credit but let's not act like he was the plague to Amar'e.
We never would have been able to sign Amare if Isiah was still in charge, and you can probably say the same about acquiring Anthony. This is really what you have to look at when you compare Walsh and Isiah. Walsh was not perfect, but he was trying to pull the Knicks out of a hole that Isiah basically got us into.I look at criticism of the Obama administration in the same way as people who choose to criticize Walsh too harsly. He is being criticized for not immediately getting the nation back on track after Shrub Bush presided 8 years of fantasy-land economics and phantom oversight by the government and any other financial watchdogs, which culminated in the Great Recession.
I'm sure Walsh did things he would not have done if he had been in position of power in terms of cap flexibility, but you can only play with the hand you are dealt, and in my estimation he did a decent job with the resources and limitations he had to work with.
Wrong Isiah and Grunwald(his hire) were talking about preserving cap before he was let go. If you think he wasn't infactuated at the possibility of obtaining Lebron and the likes in 2010 you're only fooling yourself and not following the team close enough. Obviously we only had a realistic shot at 1 big fish which proved to be Amar'e thanks to Phx not wanting to maximize his market value monetarily.
I'll go with Isiah's track record, and say little more. No guarantee that he would have changed, especially if he saw an opportunity to get someone he wanted. Not sure he had the discipline needed to do the kind of job Walsh did.
This is true, Isiah could say whatever he wanted, but I will let the Stephon Marbutry's, Eddy Curry's, Jeffrey's, Jamal's and Zach's contract, which put us WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY over the cap and in no position to sign any free agent speak for itself.
holfresh wrote:NYKBocker wrote:AnubisADL wrote:Donnie Walsh was one of the highest paid GM's to sit on his hands and not make deals in hope of 2010.- He traded Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph who were later traded for 2010 expiring anyway.
- He didn't trade Eddy Curry
- He gave up ALOT to trade Jefferies for Cap Space.I mean what has the guy really done that any rookie GM couldn't have done?
You do understand that without Walsh the Melo trade doesn't happen right?
Melo did more to make that trade happen than Walsh did....
melo did more to make sure walsh overpaid....