Knicks · Does Copeland make Novack expendable? (page 3)

VCoug @ 12/20/2012 12:15 PM
Anji wrote:
VCoug wrote:There's plenty of minutes available for both of them, especially if Brewer continues to play like trash. Even with Amare coming back soon there's still plenty of minutes available at the backup 3 and 4 spots.

Anji wrote:
jaydh wrote:If the knicks went this route, it would only make sense to trade for a big man who is a very good rebounder. I still think Camby can be that player but the knicks could be hesitant to make any deal while it's going well for fear of messing with team chemistry.

Definitely. What if we could get Andy V from Cleveland??? Or Milsap from Utah??? We wouldn't be better with Copeland filling Novacks Offensive threat off the bench roll and one of those guys???

Just saying.

The only way Cleveland or Utah would agree t trade Verajao/Millsap for Novak and Camby is if you kidnapped their GM's families and threatened to murder them and even then I'm not sure they would agree.


I don't know about that.

Let's say the knicks traded Camby to the Warriors For Rush and a 2nd Rounder
Then the Knicks traded that plus Novack for Milsap, you saying that can't happen??

What does Brandon Rush do for anyone in that scenario? I also don't think you bring in Millsap when you already have Amare and Melo.

NUPE @ 12/20/2012 12:16 PM
SMH. Why does this thread even exist?!?! The answer is NO!
IronWillGiroud @ 12/20/2012 12:20 PM
NUPE wrote:SMH. Why does this thread even exist?!?! The answer is NO!


Yea, not to take anything away from Copedawgg but NOvak is proven track history, the track records, and Cope is old rookie.

You do not replace more or less a proven guy with some hot flashes in a pan

gunsnewing @ 12/20/2012 12:23 PM
"Novack" and Cope are two entirely different players. No sense in even having this discussion
Anji @ 12/20/2012 12:27 PM
VCoug wrote:
Anji wrote:
VCoug wrote:There's plenty of minutes available for both of them, especially if Brewer continues to play like trash. Even with Amare coming back soon there's still plenty of minutes available at the backup 3 and 4 spots.

Anji wrote:
jaydh wrote:If the knicks went this route, it would only make sense to trade for a big man who is a very good rebounder. I still think Camby can be that player but the knicks could be hesitant to make any deal while it's going well for fear of messing with team chemistry.

Definitely. What if we could get Andy V from Cleveland??? Or Milsap from Utah??? We wouldn't be better with Copeland filling Novacks Offensive threat off the bench roll and one of those guys???

Just saying.

The only way Cleveland or Utah would agree t trade Verajao/Millsap for Novak and Camby is if you kidnapped their GM's families and threatened to murder them and even then I'm not sure they would agree.


I don't know about that.

Let's say the knicks traded Camby to the Warriors For Rush and a 2nd Rounder
Then the Knicks traded that plus Novack for Milsap, you saying that can't happen??

What does Brandon Rush do for anyone in that scenario? I also don't think you bring in Millsap when you already have Amare and Melo.


It's a three way trade.

Amare ain't starting and Milsap is a tween 3/4, he shoots, rebounds and plays D.

You don't know about Milsap???

Anji @ 12/20/2012 12:31 PM
IronWillGiroud wrote:
NUPE wrote:SMH. Why does this thread even exist?!?! The answer is NO!


Yea, not to take anything away from Copedawgg but NOvak is proven track history, the track records, and Cope is old rookie.

You do not replace more or less a proven guy with some hot flashes in a pan


We claimed him off waivers this time last year, how proven of a record are we talking about???

I understand though, Copeland needs to show more, but I think with more time Copeland is going to prove the superior stretch 4.

VCoug @ 12/20/2012 12:38 PM
Anji wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Anji wrote:
VCoug wrote:There's plenty of minutes available for both of them, especially if Brewer continues to play like trash. Even with Amare coming back soon there's still plenty of minutes available at the backup 3 and 4 spots.

Anji wrote:
jaydh wrote:If the knicks went this route, it would only make sense to trade for a big man who is a very good rebounder. I still think Camby can be that player but the knicks could be hesitant to make any deal while it's going well for fear of messing with team chemistry.

Definitely. What if we could get Andy V from Cleveland??? Or Milsap from Utah??? We wouldn't be better with Copeland filling Novacks Offensive threat off the bench roll and one of those guys???

Just saying.

The only way Cleveland or Utah would agree t trade Verajao/Millsap for Novak and Camby is if you kidnapped their GM's families and threatened to murder them and even then I'm not sure they would agree.


I don't know about that.

Let's say the knicks traded Camby to the Warriors For Rush and a 2nd Rounder
Then the Knicks traded that plus Novack for Milsap, you saying that can't happen??

What does Brandon Rush do for anyone in that scenario? I also don't think you bring in Millsap when you already have Amare and Melo.


It's a three way trade.

Amare ain't starting and Milsap is a tween 3/4, he shoots, rebounds and plays D.

You don't know about Milsap???

I know about Millsap, I just think he creates even more redundancy with Amare and Melo.

IronWillGiroud @ 12/20/2012 12:50 PM
Anji wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:
NUPE wrote:SMH. Why does this thread even exist?!?! The answer is NO!


Yea, not to take anything away from Copedawgg but NOvak is proven track history, the track records, and Cope is old rookie.

You do not replace more or less a proven guy with some hot flashes in a pan


We claimed him off waivers this time last year, how proven of a record are we talking about???

I understand though, Copeland needs to show more, but I think with more time Copeland is going to prove the superior stretch 4.

I just meant that Novak has been doing what Novak does for many years in the league. He is not exceptional talent, but he has been doing his thing for many years, you know where he is and what he gives

Copedawgg is a great guy, very good talent, and he can do good things for you but, at the end of the day, you do not know how he will traverse the inevitable rookie pitfalls

In this sense, Novak is the proven track history, Copedawgg is a strong prospect. Two different apples, I would even say one is an apple and the other an orange

Anji @ 12/21/2012 10:25 AM
Chris Copeland, a 28-year-old N.B.A. rookie, was given an order Saturday that he thought would bring grim news: he was called into Mike Woodson’s office.

Copeland walked into the room and wondered what he had done wrong. The Knicks were 17-5 and Copeland contributed whenever Woodson, the team’s coach, played him.

Woodson did not show any emotion in the first few minutes of their conversation. Eventually, Woodson cracked a smile and told Copeland he would be the team’s starting power forward that night against the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Copeland, who was the last player to make the Knicks’ 15-man roster, was stunned.

“I said all the normal things you would expect,” he said. “ ‘Wow! Me?! Really?! Thank you.’ ”

It was the first time in Copeland’s life that his coach had pulled a joke on him before telling him he was going to be in the starting lineup. It was a memorable moment for Copeland, who has experienced a lot of firsts since he tried out for the Knicks a few months ago — his first time putting on an N.B.A. jersey, his first game at Madison Square Garden and, on Saturday, his first career start in the league.

Against Cleveland, Copeland, starting in place of Carmelo Anthony, scored 11 points in 19 minutes to help the Knicks win. In Monday’s loss to the Houston Rockets, Copeland was one of the few efficient players for Woodson, scoring a career-high 29 points on 11-of-19 shooting.

“I’m very impressed,” Woodson said of Copeland. “I think the kid is hungry. He was excited when I told him that he was starting.”

Before Saturday’s game, Copeland was averaging 3.3 points per game. The two games he started allowed the 6-foot-8 Copeland to display the offensive skills that made him an impressive scorer for five years in Belgium, Germany and Spain.

Copeland has seen an increase in his playing time because the Knicks are dealing with a number of injuries. Besides Anthony, who returned for Wednesday’s game against the Nets, the Knicks have been without Rasheed Wallace (sore left foot) for the last three games. Marcus Camby has not played in three weeks because of a left foot injury, and Amar’e Stoudemire is just starting to practice after having surgery on his left knee seven weeks ago.

Against the Nets, Copeland played a different role — and had a more complete game — coming off the bench. Unlike his previous games, Copeland was effective on defense. He mostly guarded Gerald Wallace and held him to just 6 points and 5 rebounds.

“In order to get more minutes and to make strides in my game, I need to get stops,” Copeland said. “It’s important for me to show I can do other things.”

With the absence of Steve Novak, who had flu-like symptoms, Copeland spent most of the game on the perimeter. Near the end of the third quarter, J. R. Smith penetrated before finding Copeland open in the corner for a 3-pointer. Copeland’s basket made the Garden crowd roar as it gave the Knicks a 75-65 lead, the team’s biggest cushion to that point. Copeland finished with 8 points in 23 minutes.

“It’s amazing to play in the Garden and hear the fans erupt,” said Copeland, who is shooting more than 53 percent from the floor this season.

Copeland grew up in Orange, N.J., where he dreamed of playing in the Garden. His professional journey began when he went undrafted after playing four years at Colorado.

“It’s been an extremely long road just to put on an N.B.A. jersey,” he said. “It took a lot of years and a lot of work and tears. I almost wasn’t here altogether.”

Copeland began his professional career in 2006 with the Fort Wayne Flyers, an N.B.A. Development League team. He then decided to play overseas, a decision his agent, John Spencer, said was critical to his development.

“What happened in Europe was a chance for him to see just how big the court can be and how he can use the space on the floor to find different ways to score,” Spencer said. “That gave Chris confidence.”

In the last five years, Copeland worked out for the San Antonio Spurs, the Dallas Mavericks and the Cavaliers. Allan Houston, the Knicks’ assistant general manager, was the first person in the team’s front office who believed Copeland could have success in the N.B.A.

Copeland opted out of a guaranteed contract with Okapi Aalstar in Belgium to accept a one-year, nonguaranteed deal with the Knicks. But he struggled in his first summer league game.

“Allan was really on him about his body language and how he needed to play with energy at all times,” Spencer said.

Since then, Copeland has played well. In the preseason he averaged 15.5 points a game and had his best performance against the Boston Celtics, when he had 34 points and 6 rebounds.

Copeland knows he needs to improve his defense and become a better rebounder to stay with the Knicks for the entire season. He was able to accomplish one of his goals by being a better defender against the Nets. But Copeland also understands that Woodson will continue to push him. Woodson’s critique on Thursday will likely center on Copeland getting just one rebound Wednesday night.

“He’s been extremely tough, but that’s how you get better,” Copeland said. “He’s not on me just to be on me. He’s on me because he believes I can play.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/sports...

playa2 @ 12/21/2012 10:50 AM
This was a great NBA story ! Even if he doesn't make Novak expendable.

I remember hearing coach Woodson tell Novak, that he expects him to score in every game he plays in.

jrodmc @ 12/21/2012 6:21 PM
I'd flush the whole team and build around Copeland.

This thread is unbelievable.

To the Answerman's original point; how can you call yourself a Knick fan and misspell the guy's name?

GustavBahler @ 12/21/2012 6:31 PM
Novak can light up the scoreboard in short order when he isn't an afterthought in the offense. I like Copeland's play this season but not enough to part with the best 3pt shooter in the NBA last season. Novak isn't dealing with any recurring injuries, they just need to do a better job of incorporating him into the offense.
Anji @ 12/21/2012 6:53 PM
I think Copeland if he is real, he gives the team more off the bench than just a three point guy.

I think the evaluation is on going, if Copeland is a scorer with a jumpshot, he gives you more than Novack in all facets of the game............. then how is Novack not expendable.

playa2 @ 12/21/2012 9:30 PM
GustavBahler wrote:Novak can light up the scoreboard in short order when he isn't an afterthought in the offense. I like Copeland's play this season but not enough to part with the best 3pt shooter in the NBA last season. Novak isn't dealing with any recurring injuries, they just need to do a better job of incorporating him into the offense.

Novak doesn't want to get open, it takes too much work for him to get open. He would have to run around like Reggie Miller , Ray Allen style.

holfresh @ 12/21/2012 10:16 PM
If Novak isn't shooting threes, u would have no idea he is in the game...
Anji @ 12/21/2012 10:20 PM
holfresh wrote:If Novak isn't shooting threes, u would have no idea he is in the game...

I think Copeland if he is real, he gives the team more off the bench than just a three point guy.
I think the evaluation is on going, if Copeland is a scorer with a jumpshot, he gives you more than Novack in all facets of the game............. then how is Novack not expendable.

VCoug @ 12/21/2012 10:39 PM
Anji wrote:
holfresh wrote:If Novak isn't shooting threes, u would have no idea he is in the game...

I think Copeland if he is real, he gives the team more off the bench than just a three point guy.
I think the evaluation is on going, if Copeland is a scorer with a jumpshot, he gives you more than Novack in all facets of the game............. then how is Novack not expendable.

I just don't see why it's an either/or decision. I think there's enough minutes for both.

Anji @ 12/21/2012 10:45 PM
VCoug wrote:
Anji wrote:
holfresh wrote:If Novak isn't shooting threes, u would have no idea he is in the game...

I think Copeland if he is real, he gives the team more off the bench than just a three point guy.
I think the evaluation is on going, if Copeland is a scorer with a jumpshot, he gives you more than Novack in all facets of the game............. then how is Novack not expendable.

I just don't see why it's an either/or decision. I think there's enough minutes for both.


I don't think there will be enough minutes for both, unless you got some 14 man rotation. If you think Copeland can fill that offensive threat roll, why not try and roll Novack/Camby into a better player???

All 15 of our guys can't play.

VCoug @ 12/21/2012 11:18 PM
Anji wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Anji wrote:
holfresh wrote:If Novak isn't shooting threes, u would have no idea he is in the game...

I think Copeland if he is real, he gives the team more off the bench than just a three point guy.
I think the evaluation is on going, if Copeland is a scorer with a jumpshot, he gives you more than Novack in all facets of the game............. then how is Novack not expendable.

I just don't see why it's an either/or decision. I think there's enough minutes for both.


I don't think there will be enough minutes for both, unless you got some 14 man rotation. If you think Copeland can fill that offensive threat roll, why not try and roll Novack/Camby into a better player???

All 15 of our guys can't play.

When/if we're ever completely healthy I'm imagining a rotation similar to this.

Starters:
Felton
Kidd
Brewer
Melo
Tyson

Bench:
JR
Shump
Novak
Copeland
Amare
Camby/Sheed

That's 12 guys but our 3 bigs off the bench should all be seeing regular time off considering their age and injury history. I would have no problem with Camby and Sheed getting every 3rd or 4th game off with Amare, and probably Tyson, getting semi-regular rest as well. Shump, as far as I can tell, still has no real timetable to return and even when he is ready he'll have to be brought back very slowly so he doesn't re-aggravate his knees, I believe this is his 5th knee injury since his 1st year in College. Also, Brewer's been really bad for a little while now, both offensively and defensively, if he doesn't pick it up I could see him getting benched. This has actually already started happening to a certain extent; in the 11 games we've played this month, Brewer has played less than 20 minutes in 6 of them.

Anji @ 12/21/2012 11:39 PM
Well when I look at our team I see:
Felton:32 min guard
JR Smith:32 min guard
Melo: 32 min Forward
TC: 32 min Center

So that's 32 Guard mins out there, 64 forward mins out there and 16 center mins.

Amare 28
Kidd 20
Priggy 12
Shumps 20
Sheed 16

That leaves 16 mins for the tenth guy. I don't see how we play more than 10 a night when everybody is healthy.

VCoug @ 12/21/2012 11:54 PM
Anji wrote:Well when I look at our team I see:
Felton:32 min guard
JR Smith:32 min guard
Melo: 32 min Forward
TC: 32 min Center

So that's 32 Guard mins out there, 64 forward mins out there and 16 center mins.

Amare 28
Kidd 20
Priggy 12
Shumps 20
Sheed 16

That leaves 16 mins for the tenth guy. I don't see who we play more than 10 a night when everybody is healthy.

Hmm, I see what you're saying. I'll probably have a better idea in the morning after I sleep on it.

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