Knicks · For this to work Brgs needs to play 5 (page 1)

He needs to play center for us. He needs to move his game to the post and only out to 14 feet. Hes a skilled post player who has been allowed to free lance his whole career. Playing primarily in the low post--he will increase his FG% increase his FT production his rebounding totals and also his abysmal passing game. He needs to take on responsibility of moving the ball more and the Knicks and Woodson have to set 8+ min rebounds a game as a target. We will NOT have a fast team. Im sure we can play faster in unit 2 but unit 1 has to be methodical efficient and unselfish. Now that we haev a 7-0 260 pound post skill player--he has to be that 90% of the time instead of 40. I know he has big games freelancing shooting 3's etc... but for us to win games--if Phil Jackson was here--and maybe he should be--is Bargnani playing pure post--getting 15-18 high % shots a game and increasing his rebounding and assist #'s. He was allowed to play undisciplined in Toronto.

Amare can be the primary 5-4 back up(20 minutes a game) and were going to need 2 more 6-9 + guys who can help with depth. I also believe for this to have any chance--we need to trade Tyson Chandler and cut him up for pieces 2-3 guys who play other positions to diversify this roster some.

It WILL NOT work with BOTh Chandler and Bargs in unit 1---way way to slow and they will have spacing issues.

1st of all Bargs is not slow for a 7'er. Also Bargs makes plenty of sense playing alongside Tyson. If we're making a high % of our shots and not turning it over, then it doesn't matter how fast we are. Also Bargs is likely to play a fair amount at center anyway, so it's not a big deal really.

Bargnani is not a center. If you watched one Raptors game you would know he is not a center. Raptors fans can tell you the same thing.

JamesKPolk wrote:Bargnani is not a center. If you watched one Raptors game you would know he is not a center. Raptors fans can tell you the same thing.

Yeah, maybe he can play some spot minutes, depending on the match up. But I don't it's wise to play Bargs a lot of minutes at the 5 and I don't see them being at that slow a frontcourt combo. Heck, they're like Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings in terms of speed compared to Lopez and Garnett.

He seems closer to an SF than a C - like a taller version of KVH.
PF is the obvious position for him on this roster. It will work if he becomes more than just a chucker who's bad in the nonscoring elements of the game - regardless of what position he plays.

I think he needs to play the Dirk Nowitzki role for us -- Dirk's obviously better but they're similar players. Stretch 4 -- post out to the 3-pt line...Bargnani's probably more of a 3-pt shooter than Dirk anyway so you want him out there to a certain degree -- I think having Andrea that far from the basket improves spacing. It definitely doesn't hurt spacing any and it allows Chandler to do his thing down low (play post defense and slap the ball back to teammates for rebounds) and it gives Melo all sorts of room to operate in the mid range. It should allow Melo the opportunity to return to his natural position too (and put Shumpert back at the 2 where he belongs)....Knicks should want to duplicate exactly how Dallas uses Nowitzki -- Dirk's usually flanked by a traditional 3 & 5. In fact, Dirk's played right alongside a traditional C for as far back as I can remember -- Kaman, Haywood, Chandler, Dampier/Diop, Shawn Bradley...Chandler played alongside Dirk and they won a ring together -- he should be comfortable with this alignment & already know from experience exactly how this needs to play out...Woodson needs to have his video people cut together a ton of tape of Dirk Nowitzki and Dallas' frontcourt in general from their championship season a couple of years ago to find out exactly how to make this work effectively if he doesn't have a feel for it already.

I'd just like to see us add another power/dirty work big or 2 to go along with Chandler. There's a ton of good possibilities out there we could get dirt cheap -- Marcus Cousin, Jordan Williams, Jerome Jordan -- also we need to keep a close eye on SL -- Jamelle Hagins, Trevor Mbakwe and Jackie Carlmichael are all good young undrafted PFs that will be appearing in SL for different teams. If one of these guys makes sense, swoop in and offer a contract.

As for backup 3, they probably feel Copeland's a goner -- that's why we're hearing Francisco Garcia rumors. They probably feel the need to replace Cope's shooting behind Melo if he walks. Sounds good -- maybe they bring CJ Leslie along more slowly instead of throwing him right in the fire (as of right now, Leslie doesn't have that sort of shooting range anyway). I think there are better options than Garcia however. For one, Shawne Williams is a better fit. Garcia's more of a guard (and if we want an extra 2G, I can think of better options over Garcia here as well); Extra E can shoot the 3 and he's also capable of guarding better, even guarding the post with his superior strength/length over Garcia. If they can get Shawne Williams for the vet minimum, keeping the mini-MLE intact for something else (possibly a PG - Darren Collison?), that's definitely one way to go. I still say 6'10" Craig Brackins would be a great option to bring in for some more frontcourt scoring. He's not a dead-eye 3-pt shooter, although he can shoot 3s -- what this guy is is a monster scoring threat from anywhere on the court -- post up (very good post up game btw), mid-range all the way out to the 3 pt line. Puts it on the floor very well too for a man that big. He has the size and skill to play either forward spot (probably more of a SF)...If the Knicks decide they're OK with sacrificing a little bit of pure 3-pt shooting they had with Cope for a much more potent/well-rounded offensive player in general, Brackins is the way to go. Brackins was a decent rebounder in college too -- 9.5 & 8.5 rpg his last 2 years at Iowa State. This guy would give us more rebounding, better defense and more offensive versatility over Chris Copeland. Brackins is the better player period, better than Shawne Williams too, just on the offensive potential alone. When Melo goes out for a rest, I could picture teams after awhile saying "oh man, I gotta deal with this guy now?" There would be no offensive let-up with Brackins. I think his offensive skills are that good.

Just think about wallace and camby.....before wallace got hurt. Barg will play a similar role to wallace as a stretch 4......

Bonn1997 wrote:He seems closer to an SF than a C - like a taller version of KVH.
PF is the obvious position for him on this roster. It will work if he becomes more than just a chucker who's bad in the nonscoring elements of the game - regardless of what position he plays.

I would agree. I actually like his fit as a stretch 4 between Melo and Chandler.I dont see spacing issues at all with him on the court since he is perfectly comfortable playing on the perimeter. The issue I got while watching Bargs is exactly what your saying he takes a lot of bad shots. He gets smaller players on him on the perimeter with his height he will just pop 1 even if he is crowded. I dont think thats going to happen playing for the Knicks who are at least competitive basketball team. I think it would be very frustrating playing for a team u know has zero chance of winning a playoff series surrounded by very little talent. I would start firing shots up 2. His physical talent is actually very good. There arent many 7 footers that can put the ball on the floor like him.

I would like to see us keep Copeland to as a back up to Bargs at the 4 as he can do some of the same things.I originally suggested an AMare for Bargs Fields swap during the playoffs because I thought it would make the roster a more cohesive unit and all the deals expired at the same time. I also believed the 2 smaller contracts would be easier to move then 1 big contract in other trades. I figured both teams could dump there bad contracts on each other and get better fits for their rosters. I have a hard time seeing where Amare fits on this roster unless he is strictly a back up 5 thats it.

Center?

The seven-foot size he possesses and lack of ability to rebound ranks high on the list of things that frustrate people. Worse is the seeming lack of effort on his behalf to improve on this sorely lacking skill for a player of his size.

Andrea Bargnani has been anything but mentally tough. He is almost babied and protected by this franchise to the point of insanity at times. Bryan Colangelo, the man that picked him, obviously has a great deal to do with this. He fits the stereotype of what Euro-bashers hate about players: His defense is weak and he is a huge liability on the floor.

Andrea Bargnani’s durability and toughness are also huge question marks. He basically was sidelined with a calf injury for half of last season. Right or wrong, most people believe a guy like Amir Johnson would have played through the pain of a similar injury.

Bargnani always seems accepting of his fate no matter what the situation. He fails to show the effort and energy that people demand of him. His tough, scruffy exterior is likely thought of as him being too lazy to shave rather than anything else.

Mentally, physically, on defense or in the paint, Andrea Bargnani is considered "soft." Even his greatest supporters admit to some of these shortcomings. You cannot make a compelling argument to dispute his standing as one of the softest players in the NBA.

He came in with the nickname "Il Mago," which translated means, “The Magician.” Perhaps a better, more accurate nickname would be the “The Marshmallow Man,” given what he has shown so far in his NBA career. - Bleacher Report

Why BRIGGS Why? do you want Bargnani at center? Especially on the defensive end?

Fast forward past the draft selection at number one and Toronto-based frustration.

Bargnani may be seven feet tall but he in NOT a big man. Meaning, he plays smaller than his height, which is perfectly cool as a skill player. The 7' advantage allows him to get his shot off over anyone on the planet. It would be great of he was an elite rebounder. He is not. We have acquired gifted played who is who he is. A designated sniper with modest post skills.

The "Let's Trade/ Bench Tyson Chandler" movement is puzzling.

i thought bargs best offensive season was in 10/11 when he put on about 15-20 pounds and played alot in the post. then he lost the weight and became a more outside in guy.

whatever the case, he must be involved in the offense if you are going to utilize him right.

he can play in the post but after 1 or 2 tries there, he goes back to his comfort zone of the perimeter unless a play is called for him there.

here he is tearing up the heat - bosh had no chance. this one was from 10/11 where he was heavier and played in the post.

but this one was the next year when he was more perimeter oriented:

the thing is that he needs to get the ball and make his move. if you park him at the 3 and make him a catch and shoot player, it won't work.

For this to work Bargnani needs to dominate Chris Bosh.

for this to work, he has to hit 40%+ of the 3pt shots he takes.

He is an improved version of Steve Novak! Not a poor man's Dirk!

He has to play the 4 and move Melo back to the 3. Functionally on offense, they play the opposite role traditionally expected- Bargs as the SF operating from the outside, and Melo on the 4 in the post.

Chandler needs to do 1 thing - play defense with a vengeance and grab rebounds as he will be the only one with size that has the capacity to board.

And Amar'e can cheer from the bench for 48 minutes a night!

It will be interesting especially if Bargs 3 pt shooting is back. I kind of put that on having a calf injury and an elbow injury in back to back years. Before that he never shot below 34% which is ok. Melo and Bargs basically provides space for each other. Bargs unlike the other guys can actually put the ball on the floor. He also, doesn't stand around all the time, he will actually make cuts late in the shot clock. If healthy you hopefully will keep his usage down and have him playing a more comfortable role for him. He just gives Woody the ability to play small ball while appearing big.

I still would have him work with Hakeem though in the summer.

For this to work? You need LeBron on the Knicks. Knicks will make the playoffs. Melo will get the Knicks there.

That's cool, Bargs and Melo can hoist 3's and Shumpert can grab the long rebound from the perimeter... yikes

For this to work Bargnani needs to stop being referred to, labelled or described as a big man.

For this to work we need guards that will get in the paint, perimeter players can't have success with out ball movement and penetration.. I wish Lin, MDA and JJ was still here..Lin penetrates, jj sets great screens, and MDA has the playbook to make Barg look really good offensively.

knicks1248 wrote:For this to work we need guards that will get in the paint, perimeter players can't have success with out ball movement and penetration.. I wish Lin, MDA and JJ was still here..Lin penetrates, jj sets great screens, and MDA has the playbook to make Barg look really good offensively.

I always said that Bargs and Blatche were ideal centers for an MDA run team.

djsunyc wrote:i thought bargs best offensive season was in 10/11 when he put on about 15-20 pounds and played alot in the post. then he lost the weight and became a more outside in guy.

whatever the case, he must be involved in the offense if you are going to utilize him right.

he can play in the post but after 1 or 2 tries there, he goes back to his comfort zone of the perimeter unless a play is called for him there.

here he is tearing up the heat - bosh had no chance. this one was from 10/11 where he was heavier and played in the post.

but this one was the next year when he was more perimeter oriented:

the thing is that he needs to get the ball and make his move. if you park him at the 3 and make him a catch and shoot player, it won't work.

He can play the post--if you look at his film--there is no doubt about that. Look at the mentality here--he cant do that-hes too soft. No he hasnt played in the post enough because the team hes on was not smart with his development. A guy who is 7 feet 260 is NOT a SF. We already have one of those his name is Melo and he shoots a lot. How exactly do you have 2 SF who shoot a lot and dont pass going to work? Not to mention that there would be two slow 7 footers in the starting line up? Nope for this to work Bargs would need to play a conventional 5 and we would need to acquire a 4 that can play a synergistic role with him. Its pretty easy to see--this is not FC Barcelona--this is the NBA when you are 7-0 260 with skills you play inm the post--you get higher % shots you rebound get to the line and make nice plays using the pass. If we want Bargs to float and shoot 27 footers this team will win 35 games. If he can play an effective post and avg 23 points 8 rebounds 3 assist 1 block and shoot 48% we would be close to 50 wins again.

box score from the second game http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=3...
Good percentages but 1 rebound!!!
I'm sorry but I cant stand these kinds of big men

I don't think Dirk plays in the post all the time and he's roughly the same size(7' 250 lbs). Dirk plays alot of faceup game as well.

Dirk sometimes plays in the post if he has a mismatch. Most of the time to set up his patented step back jumper.

Not saying Bargs is on the same level as Dirk is/was, but similar build and skillset.