Knicks · Metta or Copeland? (page 4)

playa2 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:isn't the question here "who would you rather have, Artest and Prigioni or Copeland?"

we got a starting SF and a backup PG for the same price it would've cost us to keep Copeland.

Copeland's a nice player but at 29, he is what he is - a pretty good scorer who gets lost defensively.

while Artest may not have the quickness he used to, he still has great hands and great defensive anticipation. he can easily guard the more physical forwards that melo had to guard last year.

There also is a huge intimidation factor with Ron. He will 'go there' and has the rep of being a little off center. The Knicks could have used that against Indy.

We needed points against INDY and if you watch the clip, we had their defense running around & confused when the ball moved around in the last 4 min of the game. Then Melo turned it over twice in a row and that shifted the momentum. We weren't going to defend them every time down we needed buckets and that where Copeland comes in!

Hopefully this year that is where Bargs comes in. Bargs in clips I have seen is a very hard cover for Hibbert.

Both guys only play one end if the court, and ill take Cope's offense over Ron's declining D. At least him and JR can take turns elbowing opposing players.

CrushAlot wrote:

playa2 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:isn't the question here "who would you rather have, Artest and Prigioni or Copeland?"

we got a starting SF and a backup PG for the same price it would've cost us to keep Copeland.

Copeland's a nice player but at 29, he is what he is - a pretty good scorer who gets lost defensively.

while Artest may not have the quickness he used to, he still has great hands and great defensive anticipation. he can easily guard the more physical forwards that melo had to guard last year.

There also is a huge intimidation factor with Ron. He will 'go there' and has the rep of being a little off center. The Knicks could have used that against Indy.

We needed points against INDY and if you watch the clip, we had their defense running around & confused when the ball moved around in the last 4 min of the game. Then Melo turned it over twice in a row and that shifted the momentum. We weren't going to defend them every time down we needed buckets and that where Copeland comes in!

Hopefully this year that is where Bargs comes in. Bargs in clips I have seen is a very hard cover for Hibbert.

Hibbert or Hansbrough or West couldn't defend Copeland.

gunsnewing wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:It's kinda of waste to have a genius at finding Hidden talent like Grunwald who found Lin and Cope. And then a coach who refuses to use those weapons because he doesn't trust them even in meaningless playoff games. Knicks are not winning anything until after 2015. Woodson deservingly or undeservingly will be made scapegoat

Lin was Woodson's starting point guard until he got hurt. Cope was a great find. I never understood why Woodson didn't play him more. Cope was an undrafted rookie and a camp invite. My guess when I think about it is it was either how things went in practice with Cope or it took a long time for Woodson to develop a level of trust in him as a player.

So you don't see that as an inditement on Woodsons ability to coach? Why is it that Vogel Pops and Thibs trust their young players? It's because they teach and prepare them for battle. Not ignore them completely until the vets go down and you are forced to through them into the fire

As its been pointed out there were no young players to play in the last couple of years but Lin and SHump who both got burn. Cope is almost 30 and Prigs is 35.

playa2 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

playa2 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:isn't the question here "who would you rather have, Artest and Prigioni or Copeland?"

we got a starting SF and a backup PG for the same price it would've cost us to keep Copeland.

Copeland's a nice player but at 29, he is what he is - a pretty good scorer who gets lost defensively.

while Artest may not have the quickness he used to, he still has great hands and great defensive anticipation. he can easily guard the more physical forwards that melo had to guard last year.

There also is a huge intimidation factor with Ron. He will 'go there' and has the rep of being a little off center. The Knicks could have used that against Indy.

We needed points against INDY and if you watch the clip, we had their defense running around & confused when the ball moved around in the last 4 min of the game. Then Melo turned it over twice in a row and that shifted the momentum. We weren't going to defend them every time down we needed buckets and that where Copeland comes in!

Hopefully this year that is where Bargs comes in. Bargs in clips I have seen is a very hard cover for Hibbert.

Hibbert or Hansbrough or West couldn't defend Copeland.

Copeland's offensive game was never in question...the guy can straight score. His defense is terrible. Not hating just calling a spade a spade.

Wow Playa, I think you are going a little overboard on Copeland. I am fan of what Cope does, but all these conspiracies and monday quarterbacking over him is a bit much. He was soft at the beginning of the year and Coach helped him by leaps and bounds by the end of the season in terms of effort and defense.

He looked bad in the celtics series with the shoulder injury and was getting back to being healthy by the end of the Pacers series. I wished we had signed him to a 2 year deal instead of White, but those things happen. It's no inner circle plot against Copeland from Melo or the higher ups.

I do think MeccaRon will be as good of a pick or even better, because he can still play great team defense and he has been 35% or better from three for 4 of the 5 past seasons.

Copeland creates huge mismatch problems at PF/C has a very quick shot (doesn't need much room to get his shot off) and shoots at over 40% for 3's, while MWP gets left open for 3's
At this point of MWP career, his lack of speed is a huge issue, and he isn't the versatile defender and player that Ron Artest once was

Copeland can play on and off the basketball both very efficiently and with consistency in a low amount of minutes/opportunities
He can play as a #1 to #3 option on the court and is NOT a black hole, if you try to defend his shot, he has a underated handle with ability to blow by you, breaking down the opponents DEFENSE and either finish or pass it off to an wide open team mate (fitting in very well with the Pacer's and their lack of EGO issues to go with their talents/size/athleticism
With the help of Rasheed, he also improved his post up abilities with the hook shot, and fighting for position for OFF boards, giving back an element of what Rasheed brought for us earlier in the season

He improved his rebounding, DEF, DEF effort, and was a big part of our success in the late run last season while playing the PF/C
Earlier in the year, he struggled much because he played the SF, and he was not utilized to his strengths

Since Lebron/Rudy Gay/Melo can all opt out this summer
I would not be surprised if Indiana eventually trades David West, Granger, Gereld Green, Lance, and allows Plumlee/Mahimi/Copeland to play bigger roles
George Hill(8m) and Mahimi(4m) both make a combined 12m each too, they could move them as well, and keep some of the above like Lance at cap friendly contract

Courting the likes of Lebron/Rudy Gay/Melo to go with Paul George as the faces' of the franchise

PG (Bayless or Vazquez)/George Hill
George Hill/Solomin Hill
Paul George
Lebron, Rudy Gay,or Melo/Copeland/Plumlee
Hibbert/Mahimi/PlumLee

Vasquez
Lance/Solomon Hill
Paul George
Lebron, Rudy Gay, or Melo/Copeland
Hibbert/Plumlee

This type of team can be assembled with just FA signings and not trades, so they keep ALL OF THEIR PICKS, in addition to their future full MLE (for 2 years and 3m MLE after) and 2m LLE or Bi Annual Exemption, and or any asset's picks they can acquire by trading West, Granger, George Hill, Lance Stephenson, Mahimi

Or with LEVERAGE they can LOWBALL The Heat/King's/Toronto/Knicks with limited future picks *like one future 1st rounder/1 2nd rounder*, like Heat did with Bosh/Lebron, because they have the ability to sign them outright as UFA's with cap space
If the Pacer's trade for the players instead of signing them as UFA's, they would be able to use the full 5m MLE the same year, next summer, instead of the room exemption of half the full MLE

The future is very bright for the Pacer's and Cleveland

Anji wrote:Artest not being the Allstar he used to be doesn't mean he isn't still better than Copeland for this team.

Agreed. It's coincidental that he's neither an all-star nor as effective as Copeland.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Artest not being the Allstar he used to be doesn't mean he isn't still better than Copeland for this team.

Agreed. It's coincidental that he's neither an all-star nor as effective as Copeland.

You just Boolean logic'd.

Anyway, on the other hand, K-Mart, World War and JR Smith vs. The Shield on WWE? What do you think?

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Artest not being the Allstar he used to be doesn't mean he isn't still better than Copeland for this team.

Agreed. It's coincidental that he's neither an all-star nor as effective as Copeland.

Are you joking about him not being as effective as Cope? I honestly don't expect much from Cope this year and I don't think the Pacers improved unless Granger somehow makes it back.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Artest not being the Allstar he used to be doesn't mean he isn't still better than Copeland for this team.

Agreed. It's coincidental that he's neither an all-star nor as effective as Copeland.

Are you joking about him not being as effective as Cope? I honestly don't expect much from Cope this year and I don't think the Pacers improved unless Granger somehow makes it back.

Artest was average to below average last year in all phases of the game. Copeland at least does one thing well (score). Most of the metrics put him ahead of Artest.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Artest not being the Allstar he used to be doesn't mean he isn't still better than Copeland for this team.

Agreed. It's coincidental that he's neither an all-star nor as effective as Copeland.

Are you joking about him not being as effective as Cope? I honestly don't expect much from Cope this year and I don't think the Pacers improved unless Granger somehow makes it back.

Artest was average to below average last year in all phases of the game. Copeland at least does one thing well (score). Most of the metrics put him ahead of Artest.

Someone posted that ARtest had the best +/- on the Lakers and it might have been in the league but I don't know if I am being accurate. Artest on the decline is still better than Cope and I think you are selling him short if you suggest that he doesn't do anything well.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Artest not being the Allstar he used to be doesn't mean he isn't still better than Copeland for this team.

Agreed. It's coincidental that he's neither an all-star nor as effective as Copeland.

Are you joking about him not being as effective as Cope? I honestly don't expect much from Cope this year and I don't think the Pacers improved unless Granger somehow makes it back.

Artest was average to below average last year in all phases of the game. Copeland at least does one thing well (score). Most of the metrics put him ahead of Artest.

Someone posted that ARtest had the best +/- on the Lakers and it might have been in the league but I don't know if I am being accurate. Artest on the decline is still better than Cope and I think you are selling him short if you suggest that he doesn't do anything well.

yeah, I saw the same thing about his +/- always being high with every team he has played for. +/- is not the end all be all.

Anji wrote:Wow Playa, I think you are going a little overboard on Copeland. I am fan of what Cope does, but all these conspiracies and monday quarterbacking over him is a bit much. He was soft at the beginning of the year and Coach helped him by leaps and bounds by the end of the season in terms of effort and defense.

He looked bad in the celtics series with the shoulder injury and was getting back to being healthy by the end of the Pacers series. I wished we had signed him to a 2 year deal instead of White, but those things happen. It's no inner circle plot against Copeland from Melo or the higher ups.

I do think MeccaRon will be as good of a pick or even better, because he can still play great team defense and he has been 35% or better from three for 4 of the 5 past seasons.

Coach didn't help him, I would say Rasheed and Camby helped him, Woody didn't even like him.

Copeland will be lighting it up next yr, and will show how we blew it when it was so difficult for us to score against good defensive teams.

Indiana saw something in Copeland , the same thing I saw. Pacers brass get paid 6 figures to make their team better, I just post on a sports forum.
Great minds think a like.

CashMoney wrote:

playa2 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

playa2 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:isn't the question here "who would you rather have, Artest and Prigioni or Copeland?"

we got a starting SF and a backup PG for the same price it would've cost us to keep Copeland.

Copeland's a nice player but at 29, he is what he is - a pretty good scorer who gets lost defensively.

while Artest may not have the quickness he used to, he still has great hands and great defensive anticipation. he can easily guard the more physical forwards that melo had to guard last year.

There also is a huge intimidation factor with Ron. He will 'go there' and has the rep of being a little off center. The Knicks could have used that against Indy.

We needed points against INDY and if you watch the clip, we had their defense running around & confused when the ball moved around in the last 4 min of the game. Then Melo turned it over twice in a row and that shifted the momentum. We weren't going to defend them every time down we needed buckets and that where Copeland comes in!

Hopefully this year that is where Bargs comes in. Bargs in clips I have seen is a very hard cover for Hibbert.

Hibbert or Hansbrough or West couldn't defend Copeland.

Copeland's offensive game was never in question...the guy can straight score. His defense is terrible. Not hating just calling a spade a spade.

Watch the 5 MIN clip Melo's defense is worst, and nobody says a word. LOL

playa2 wrote:

Anji wrote:Wow Playa, I think you are going a little overboard on Copeland. I am fan of what Cope does, but all these conspiracies and monday quarterbacking over him is a bit much. He was soft at the beginning of the year and Coach helped him by leaps and bounds by the end of the season in terms of effort and defense.

He looked bad in the celtics series with the shoulder injury and was getting back to being healthy by the end of the Pacers series. I wished we had signed him to a 2 year deal instead of White, but those things happen. It's no inner circle plot against Copeland from Melo or the higher ups.

I do think MeccaRon will be as good of a pick or even better, because he can still play great team defense and he has been 35% or better from three for 4 of the 5 past seasons.

Coach didn't help him, I would say Rasheed and Camby helped him, Woody didn't even like him.

Copeland will be lighting it up next yr, and will show how we blew it when it was so difficult for us to score against good defensive teams.

Indiana saw something in Copeland , the same thing I saw. Pacers brass get paid 6 figures to make their team better, I just post on a sports forum.
Great minds think a like.

I disagree. I like Cope but I don't think Indy is the best situation for him. Cope is this years version of Gerald Green. Not even sure why you sign him when you drafted Solomon Hill. I don't see him getting the minutes in Indy. In regards to Indy, I think while they have a buzz around them they have improved their team the least this summer unless Granger somehow can make it back to what he was.

playa2 wrote:

Anji wrote:Wow Playa, I think you are going a little overboard on Copeland. I am fan of what Cope does, but all these conspiracies and monday quarterbacking over him is a bit much. He was soft at the beginning of the year and Coach helped him by leaps and bounds by the end of the season in terms of effort and defense.

He looked bad in the celtics series with the shoulder injury and was getting back to being healthy by the end of the Pacers series. I wished we had signed him to a 2 year deal instead of White, but those things happen. It's no inner circle plot against Copeland from Melo or the higher ups.

I do think MeccaRon will be as good of a pick or even better, because he can still play great team defense and he has been 35% or better from three for 4 of the 5 past seasons.

Coach didn't help him, I would say Rasheed and Camby helped him, Woody didn't even like him.

Copeland will be lighting it up next yr, and will show how we blew it when it was so difficult for us to score against good defensive teams.

Indiana saw something in Copeland , the same thing I saw. Pacers brass get paid 6 figures to make their team better, I just post on a sports forum.
Great minds think a like.

This is how I feel sometimes, like im arguing with people and getting no where. Even though I see everything through my own eyes and I'm never wrong and anyone arguing with me is always wrong

gunsnewing wrote:There is no point in stocking guys in the dleague when Woodson will never play them over the vets until he is forced to and they are not ready against NBA playoff competition. A coach is suppose to teach no sit back and leave everything in the hands of the vets. See Vogel with George Stevenson hill and Thibs in chicago

You get these guys now, so when Woodson is not here next year, there will be some kind of extended core to work with.

I am not sure vogel and thibs are good examples since they spoon feed their rookies too. The difference is those coaches got a second year with their young players.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Artest not being the Allstar he used to be doesn't mean he isn't still better than Copeland for this team.

Agreed. It's coincidental that he's neither an all-star nor as effective as Copeland.

Are you joking about him not being as effective as Cope? I honestly don't expect much from Cope this year and I don't think the Pacers improved unless Granger somehow makes it back.

Artest was average to below average last year in all phases of the game. Copeland at least does one thing well (score). Most of the metrics put him ahead of Artest.

Someone posted that ARtest had the best +/- on the Lakers and it might have been in the league but I don't know if I am being accurate. Artest on the decline is still better than Cope and I think you are selling him short if you suggest that he doesn't do anything well.

League? no but he did have a good +/- last year. He was negative the prior year though and all the other metrics look bad for him.

If Granger returns and takes Stephenson's place in the starting line up for the Pacers, Cope is competing with 5 guys for minutes on the second unit. Who does he get minutes over? Mahini, Watson, Stephenson or Hill? Again, I like Cope but I don't see this as a good situation for him. I think he is the Pacers version of Gerald Green this year.