All I know is that I want these guys bad this year. Gotta circle every game against these guys on the calendar and then I wanna play 'em and beat 'em in the playoffs this time.
nixluva wrote:knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:BRIGGS wrote:nixluva wrote:I don't agree that Hibbert has reached some new level of performance. He's gonna have to prove that with a repeat performance in the regular season and playoffs. A lot of the way he looked was due to the lack of anyone his size defending him. Tyson normally doesn't get dominated and I believe he wasn't right last year. In the end it's not totally about individual match ups. The Knicks lost as a team and from poor team execution. We didn't get enough scoring from the rest of the team, lacked balance and versatility and the team defense also wasn't up to the task. This is almost going to be a different team facing the Pacers. We'll have more options offensively and more balance to the scoring. We have to hope that we can keep Tyson fresh for the playoffs so he won't be weak as he was last playoffs. I'm assuming Grunwald will eventually add another C to back him up.
We'll have some more options that will make it much harder for the Pacers to sit back in the paint and just wait for Melo to come at them. Someone is going to have to deal with the additional threats we'll be putting on the floor. They won't be able to just relax and not worry about Kidd anymore. They likely won't have the luxury of a slumping and injured JR. We'll have far more weapons for them to have to worry about.
Scola will help the Pacers as would a healthy Granger. These 2 teams will be very competitive. I think that too many Knick fans give the Pacers too much credit for that playoff series and not recognizing that the Knicks weren't at full strength. The Pacers were strong and the Knicks were fading. This is why it was important for the Knicks to get younger, deeper and more talented.
I saw pictures of Hibbert--he looks unbelievable. If it improves his play where he is able to shut off interiors and score 17 points game on the other end--then hes an unstoppable difference maker with the rest of their make up.
I still have to see Hibbert be consistently good before giving him that much credit. He had a very good post season last year, but that doesn't mean he's gonna dominate for 82 games this year. I have to see that before I believe it.
Roy Hibbert Stats
Regular Season Averages
SEASON GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
'08-'09 70 41 14.4 2.8-6.0 .471 .000 1.4-2.1 .667 1.6 1.8 3.5 0.7 1.1 0.3 3.1 0.8 7.1
'09-'10 81 69 25.1 4.8-9.7 .495 .500 2.1-2.8 .754 2.2 3.5 5.7 2.0 1.6 0.4 3.5 1.8 11.7
'10-'11 81 80 27.7 5.1-11.0 .461 .000 2.5-3.4 .745 2.3 5.3 7.5 2.0 1.8 0.4 3.2 2.3 12.7
'11-'12 65 65 29.8 5.1-10.3 .497 .000 2.6-3.7 .711 3.3 5.5 8.8 1.7 2.0 0.5 3.0 2.0 12.8
'12-'13 79 79 28.7 4.9-10.9 .448 .250 2.1-2.8 .741 3.8 4.6 8.3 1.4 2.6 0.5 3.5 2.1 11.9
Career 376 334 25.3 4.6-9.6 .473 .267 2.1-2.9 .729 2.6 4.2 6.8 1.6 1.8 0.4 3.3 1.8 11.3
Hibbert has been less than dominant IMO. He's a real weapon, but we'll have to see if he can produce as an elite C over the course of an entire season and playoffs or will he be the mystery he's often been.
What exactly are you looking to see? he isnt a dominant option on offense, the pacers only used him in that fashion because of the opponents they faced with a ton of second chance points, but he gets a ton of offensive rebounds and blocks shots, which is his game, which is clear by the data you yourself just presented.If it were any other center i probably would question, but georgetown rarely puts out garbage.
My point is evident. He can be a force in the paint, but this playoff was the first time he ever displayed the kind of offensive explosion he did in that small snapshot of 19 games. He's never been consistently dominant over the course of a season and it's possible he just had a hot streak in the playoffs. One great playoff run doesn't make a career. People are putting way to much credit on that one showing. They bash AB for not being over 50% and give Hibbert a pass. Hibbert is a big dude and he guards the basket at a high level but he also disappears in far too many games.
I'm anxious to see how he does this year against a Knicks team that he can't just camp out in the paint against. I think teams will show him different looks this year and try to get him in more uncomfortable situations. If he's not able to camp in the paint and just wait for players to be funneled into him, he's far less effective. What happens if the Pacers have to face the Bulls this year? How will they do against the Nets? It's going to be very interesting.
So let me get this straight....
You're upset because Hibbert is getting credit for what he actually did do? Bargnani hasnt even suited up yet....he's done nothing.
Points from Hibbert is a bonus...thats not his game, he scores mainly off someones misses.... his game is clogging the middle rebounding on the offensive end and blocking and altering shots.
Now if you say he's inconsistent in that...you are being severely dishonest.
I doubt that changes no matter who he plays, the Pacers are legit, they are the team that give the champs the battle for two straight years, although I'd love to see the Pacers play the Bulls...mainly because I want to see two great defenses go at each other.
I just find this convo so odd that as Knicks fans we want to get credit and respect for so little, but when other do better...it's dismissed by us as a fluke.
The Pacers have nothing to prove other than beating Miami....we on the other hand gotta prove we can even beat the runner up.
knicks main issue remains defense and rebounding. neither issue was addressed.
it's like a baseball team with a lousy pitching staff but which has enough home run hitting to make believers out of its fanbase during the regular season. last-second heroics are like that. meanwhile teams that emphasize defense and rebounding don't get respect during the regular season.
if woodson is not going to be fired after this season he had best find the best group of players who are willing to defend and box out. bulls and pacers emphasize this and their ability to make waves in the playoffs is demonstrable. oh and make it a meritocracy and not play favorites.
that list does not include bargnani and stoudemire so i don't expect either to garner any more than 12-15 minutes a game. in fact i think martin gets more minutes, or at least should.
we have to see major minutes going to
shumpert
artest
chandler
carmelo anthony had better be lean enough this year to defend the perimeter.
who among felton udrih and prigioni will be able to stay in front of his man? this should be up for grabs but woodson is already digging himself a hole by handing the starting job to felton. that's a mistake.
nixluva wrote:I don't agree that Hibbert has reached some new level of performance. He's gonna have to prove that with a repeat performance in the regular season and playoffs. A lot of the way he looked was due to the lack of anyone his size defending him. Tyson normally doesn't get dominated and I believe he wasn't right last year.
I agree- people forget how awful he looked at the start of last season, with people saying he was a bust after signing the big contract. He goes through prolonged spells where he loses confidence and shoots 40 something %. Maybe the playoffs gave him a confidence boost, but up unti then he was far from a sure, reliable, elite center. All depens on the was the ref's call the games he plays in- he got special treatment in the playoffs, in the nba's attempt to manufacture a new star.
Having said that, looking at this picture has me scared!
The biggest advantage the Pacers have is not Hibbert but the coach. The coach puts Hibbert in position to do well. Vogel kicked Woody's azz all series long. The trick was to pull Hibbert away from the basket something Woody was unable to do with Chandler. Maybe Bargs will help pull Hibbert away from the basket.
Can't count on Amare to be around, that is wishful thinking. Scola and West are better than Amare and Bargs. Only reason is you can't count on Amare being there. The rebounding advantage goes to the Pacers.
At guard that is even pacers have Hill and CJ Watson which I think is even with Felton, Prigioni and Bueno.
Sf is only an advantage to the Knicks if Melo is playing SF otherwise it isn't. If Melo ends up playing PF than its advantage Pacer still at PF and SF because the wear and tear at PF even if Melo puts up decent numbers gives the Pacers the advantage in a drawn out series. George vs Artest or Shump, you have to with George.
If Granger is healthy with Stephenson vs Smith and Shump I would have to go with the Pacers the reason is Smith isn't stable, Stephenson knows how to get under JR Smiths skin. Granger is proven player. But coming off Injury is what gives Pacers a slight advantage.
Vmart wrote:The biggest advantage the Pacers have is not Hibbert but the coach. The coach puts Hibbert in position to do well. Vogel kicked Woody's azz all series long. The trick was to pull Hibbert away from the basket something Woody was unable to do with Chandler. Maybe Bargs will help pull Hibbert away from the basket.
He did, and that annoyed me because I always think he comes across as an a**hole- and his mocking of Woody in the Miami series to deflect attention from his own failings just reinforced that. Real breach of the coaches code that- hope Woody gets his revenge this season.
smackeddog wrote:Vmart wrote:The biggest advantage the Pacers have is not Hibbert but the coach. The coach puts Hibbert in position to do well. Vogel kicked Woody's azz all series long. The trick was to pull Hibbert away from the basket something Woody was unable to do with Chandler. Maybe Bargs will help pull Hibbert away from the basket.
He did, and that annoyed me because I always think he comes across as an a**hole- and his mocking of Woody in the Miami series to deflect attention from his own failings just reinforced that. Real breach of the coaches code that- hope Woody gets his revenge this season.
Agree. He is probably going to be in this profession for a long time and will take his share of lumps. Hope it is sooner then later.
smackeddog wrote:Vmart wrote:The biggest advantage the Pacers have is not Hibbert but the coach. The coach puts Hibbert in position to do well. Vogel kicked Woody's azz all series long. The trick was to pull Hibbert away from the basket something Woody was unable to do with Chandler. Maybe Bargs will help pull Hibbert away from the basket.
He did, and that annoyed me because I always think he comes across as an a**hole- and his mocking of Woody in the Miami series to deflect attention from his own failings just reinforced that. Real breach of the coaches code that- hope Woody gets his revenge this season.
I understand that Vogel called out Woody, but Woody in the playoffs was an example of Ameture hour. He was running the same BS offense in Atlanta. If Woody comes with the same plan of action and a lack of adjustments the results will be same or a step back. Playoff basketball is different than regular season, playoffs are about in game adjustments. It's about coaches making adjustments game to game with adjustments within the game.
That picture makes me wonder if the Knicks need to bring in Haddadi. Hibbert is a house. At least Haddadi is 7"2' also.
CrushAlot wrote:That picture makes me wonder if the Knicks need to bring in Haddadi. Hibbert is a house. At least Haddadi is 7"2' also.
He looks like he could snap Tim Duncan in half in that photo! We can only hope the extra bulk saps his speed and his endurance.
nixluva wrote:BRIGGS wrote:nixluva wrote:I don't agree that Hibbert has reached some new level of performance. He's gonna have to prove that with a repeat performance in the regular season and playoffs. A lot of the way he looked was due to the lack of anyone his size defending him. Tyson normally doesn't get dominated and I believe he wasn't right last year. In the end it's not totally about individual match ups. The Knicks lost as a team and from poor team execution. We didn't get enough scoring from the rest of the team, lacked balance and versatility and the team defense also wasn't up to the task. This is almost going to be a different team facing the Pacers. We'll have more options offensively and more balance to the scoring. We have to hope that we can keep Tyson fresh for the playoffs so he won't be weak as he was last playoffs. I'm assuming Grunwald will eventually add another C to back him up.
We'll have some more options that will make it much harder for the Pacers to sit back in the paint and just wait for Melo to come at them. Someone is going to have to deal with the additional threats we'll be putting on the floor. They won't be able to just relax and not worry about Kidd anymore. They likely won't have the luxury of a slumping and injured JR. We'll have far more weapons for them to have to worry about.
Scola will help the Pacers as would a healthy Granger. These 2 teams will be very competitive. I think that too many Knick fans give the Pacers too much credit for that playoff series and not recognizing that the Knicks weren't at full strength. The Pacers were strong and the Knicks were fading. This is why it was important for the Knicks to get younger, deeper and more talented.
I saw pictures of Hibbert--he looks unbelievable. If it improves his play where he is able to shut off interiors and score 17 points game on the other end--then hes an unstoppable difference maker with the rest of their make up.
I still have to see Hibbert be consistently good before giving him that much credit. He had a very good post season last year, but that doesn't mean he's gonna dominate for 82 games this year. I have to see that before I believe it.
Roy Hibbert Stats
Regular Season Averages
SEASON GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
'08-'09 70 41 14.4 2.8-6.0 .471 .000 1.4-2.1 .667 1.6 1.8 3.5 0.7 1.1 0.3 3.1 0.8 7.1
'09-'10 81 69 25.1 4.8-9.7 .495 .500 2.1-2.8 .754 2.2 3.5 5.7 2.0 1.6 0.4 3.5 1.8 11.7
'10-'11 81 80 27.7 5.1-11.0 .461 .000 2.5-3.4 .745 2.3 5.3 7.5 2.0 1.8 0.4 3.2 2.3 12.7
'11-'12 65 65 29.8 5.1-10.3 .497 .000 2.6-3.7 .711 3.3 5.5 8.8 1.7 2.0 0.5 3.0 2.0 12.8
'12-'13 79 79 28.7 4.9-10.9 .448 .250 2.1-2.8 .741 3.8 4.6 8.3 1.4 2.6 0.5 3.5 2.1 11.9
Career 376 334 25.3 4.6-9.6 .473 .267 2.1-2.9 .729 2.6 4.2 6.8 1.6 1.8 0.4 3.3 1.8 11.3
Hibbert has been less than dominant IMO. He's a real weapon, but we'll have to see if he can produce as an elite C over the course of an entire season and playoffs or will he be the mystery he's often been.
I agree. Also, the Knicks did the best job of containing Hibbert offensively in the playoffs despite Tyson's performace: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...
The biggest problem Hibbert posed was on the boards and in the paint as a shotblocker. I think we can expect the Knicks to do better on the boards if Tyson is healthy and we meet the Pacers again in the post season.
smackeddog wrote:CrushAlot wrote:That picture makes me wonder if the Knicks need to bring in Haddadi. Hibbert is a house. At least Haddadi is 7"2' also.
He looks like he could snap Tim Duncan in half in that photo! We can only hope the extra bulk saps his speed and his endurance.
Yeah imagine what he might do to this guy.
Melonoma wrote:Melo is overrated by Knick fans.
Papabear Says
Who on the team is better??
Papabear wrote:Melonoma wrote:Melo is overrated by Knick fans.
Papabear Says
Who on the team is better??
That's the problem with this team. No one is better. That's why we got bounced in the 2nd rd and it wasn't close
An area that we have to be better than Indiana in is rebounding. With an injured Chandler we didn't get enough rebounds/ 2nd chance opportunities. There has to be soembody on the roster to fill that void for us.
gunsnewing wrote:Papabear wrote:Melonoma wrote:Melo is overrated by Knick fans.
Papabear Says
Who on the team is better??
That's the problem with this team. No one is better. That's why we got bounced in the 2nd rd and it wasn't close
Papabear Says
Wrong! They got bounced because Sheed Wallace, Jason Kidd, JR Smith, Camby,Kirt Thomas,Novak,Amare, and Chandler was either missing because of injuries,ran out of gas, or retired That's what happened. Be real about what really happened.
None of those guys would've made a difference. None of those guys can compete with the multiple stars on the elite championship contending teams. Reason being Amare Melo and Tyson are so grossly overpaid
Papabear wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Papabear wrote:Melonoma wrote:Melo is overrated by Knick fans.
Papabear Says
Who on the team is better??
That's the problem with this team. No one is better. That's why we got bounced in the 2nd rd and it wasn't close
Papabear SaysWrong! They got bounced because Sheed Wallace, Jason Kidd, JR Smith, Camby,Kirt Thomas,Novak, and Chandler was either missing because of injuries,ran out of gas, or retired That's what happened. Be real about what really happened.
Role players dont lose a series, stop this nonsense.
gunsnewing wrote:None of those guys would've made a difference. None of those guys can compete with the multiple stars on the elite championship contending teams. Reason being Amare Melo and Tyson are so grossly overpaid
Papabear Says
Damn I forgot to put Amear's name on the list. And You don't know if the knicks would have had a chance or not to beat the Pacers.Our chances sure would have been better. You said before the season they wouldn't win 54 games. You was wrong.
Papabear wrote:gunsnewing wrote:None of those guys would've made a difference. None of those guys can compete with the multiple stars on the elite championship contending teams. Reason being Amare Melo and Tyson are so grossly overpaid
Papabear SaysDamn I forgot to put Amear's name on the list. And You don't know if the knicks would have had a chance or not to beat the Pacers.Our chances sure would have been better. You said before the season they wouldn't win 54 games. You was wrong.
I said 50 but the playoffs proved how meaningless 54 wins can be
And I'm pretty sure we are several games under .500 with both Melo and Amare playing
