Knicks · Bargs killed chemistry from last year (page 2)

BRIGGS wrote:This is on the knicks but moving melo back to 4 from 3 with two slow chugging 7fts killed the the team. With melo at4 gives much more space for our offense. Removing bargs was key. It was a toxic trade that back fired. I doubt he plays another game as a knick good riddance

Stop with this nonsense.

Our guards have been by far the worst guards in the NBA --- all season long.

Bargs has been our 2nd best player all-year and Melo has played very well all season.

We have potentially the worst starting pg and worst starting sg in the NBA and our former defensive player of the year has been completely out-played by BARGs all year.

dk7th wrote:it isn't bargnani being added it's about him being added and jason kidd being subtracted.

bargnani has a usage of 22.4 this year and an assist rate of 6.3 for a ratio of 3.55:1

put him in any lineup with another guy with high usage and low assist rate, like anything over 1.80:1, and you will see chemistry and cohesion issues right away.

carmelo anthony is 31.7 usage and 15.4 assist rate for a ratio of 2.05:1

and lets not forget neither is a two-way player.

Yeah, I thought Beno would step in and fill the role Kidd did last year. That and JR missing so many shots this season killed chemistry more than anything. We don't have a head out there.

BigDaddyG wrote:

dk7th wrote:it isn't bargnani being added it's about him being added and jason kidd being subtracted.

bargnani has a usage of 22.4 this year and an assist rate of 6.3 for a ratio of 3.55:1

put him in any lineup with another guy with high usage and low assist rate, like anything over 1.80:1, and you will see chemistry and cohesion issues right away.

carmelo anthony is 31.7 usage and 15.4 assist rate for a ratio of 2.05:1

and lets not forget neither is a two-way player.

Yeah, I thought Beno would step in and fill the role Kidd did last year. That and JR missing so many shots this season killed chemistry more than anything. We don't have a head out there.

I can't get a good handle on Beno. He brings nice offensive pace to the team, but his defense in horrendous. He also seems prone to giving up the un-explainable turnover at the damnedest times. Maybe a lack of familiarity with the first unit or not enough playing time. We all know who that points to. He's one of four point guards. I still expect him to break out and make a solid contribution.

LivingLegend wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:This is on the knicks but moving melo back to 4 from 3 with two slow chugging 7fts killed the the team. With melo at4 gives much more space for our offense. Removing bargs was key. It was a toxic trade that back fired. I doubt he plays another game as a knick good riddance

Stop with this nonsense.

Our guards have been by far the worst guards in the NBA --- all season long.

Bargs has been our 2nd best player all-year and Melo has played very well all season.

We have potentially the worst starting pg and worst starting sg in the NBA and our former defensive player of the year has been completely out-played by BARGs all year.

We may never know this year. When management gives that, "out indefinitely" status, I get an uneasy feeling. Bargs is frozen out when playing with Felton. He does a lot better when paired with Beno or Prigs. Felton tunes him out while trying to force the ball to Melo. Better PG play and different placement on the court would take advantage of his mid-range jumper and driving skills.

Sangfroid wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

dk7th wrote:it isn't bargnani being added it's about him being added and jason kidd being subtracted.

bargnani has a usage of 22.4 this year and an assist rate of 6.3 for a ratio of 3.55:1

put him in any lineup with another guy with high usage and low assist rate, like anything over 1.80:1, and you will see chemistry and cohesion issues right away.

carmelo anthony is 31.7 usage and 15.4 assist rate for a ratio of 2.05:1

and lets not forget neither is a two-way player.

Yeah, I thought Beno would step in and fill the role Kidd did last year. That and JR missing so many shots this season killed chemistry more than anything. We don't have a head out there.

I can't get a good handle on Beno. He brings nice offensive pace to the team, but his defense in horrendous. He also seems prone to giving up the un-explainable turnover at the damnedest times. Maybe a lack of familiarity with the first unit or not enough playing time. We all know who that points to. He's one of four point guards. I still expect him to break out and make a solid contribution.

Beno has run the pick and roll really well of late. But yeah, his defense sucks. Th biggest let down has been his shot selection. How many baseline short-range jumpers have to hit the side of the backboard before he gets it.

When Tyson was out and Bargs was playing center he did a very good job and all year he's been defending other centers one on one at a high level. Only big that went crazy scoring on him was Al Jefferson. He held down just about every other big we faced. We all know Bargs has flaws, but a big part of his issues this year had to do with our PG's and Woodson not using him properly. The biggest problem we've had is the AWFUL performance of our guards.

Look at the production from the guys we're supposed to depend on the most! The very players who were the core of the offense last year!

              FGM  FGA   FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	2PM	2PA	2P%	PPS	AFG%
Hardaway Jr.  3.0  6.5	.453	1.3	3.3	.393	1.0	1.2	0.83	1.7	3.2	.515	1.263	0.55
Beno	      2.2  5.2	.425	0.5	1.3	.425	0.6	0.8	0.83	1.7	3.9	.425	1.081	0.48
Pablo 	      1.3  3.0	.425	1.0	2.3	.413	0.1	0.1	1.00	0.3	0.7	.471	1.225	0.59
Murry         1.2  2.9	.421	0.0	0.3	.143	0.5	0.9	0.57	1.2	2.6	.449	1.026	0.43
Felton	      4.3  10.8	.395	1.0	3.6	.289	1.2	1.7	0.71	3.3	7.2	.448	.997	0.44
Iman 	      2.6  6.6	.390	1.2	3.2	.360	1.0	1.3	0.78	1.4	3.4	.420	1.106	0.48
J.R. 	      4.4  12.1	.369	2.1	5.9	.355	1.0	1.7	0.62	2.3	6.2	.381	.995	0.46

It's the underperformance of these 3 guards that are the reason this team is playing so bad. Their playing bad effects everyone else and that includes Bargs. Melo doesn't need any help and he can still get off, but other players need the guards to play well.

nixluva wrote:When Tyson was out and Bargs was playing center he did a very good job and all year he's been defending other centers one on one at a high level. Only big that went crazy scoring on him was Al Jefferson. He held down just about every other big we faced. We all know Bargs has flaws, but a big part of his issues this year had to do with our PG's and Woodson not using him properly. The biggest problem we've had is the AWFUL performance of our guards.

Look at the production from the guys we're supposed to depend on the most! The very players who were the core of the offense last year!

              FGM  FGA   FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	2PM	2PA	2P%	PPS	AFG%
Hardaway Jr.  3.0  6.5	.453	1.3	3.3	.393	1.0	1.2	0.83	1.7	3.2	.515	1.263	0.55
Beno	      2.2  5.2	.425	0.5	1.3	.425	0.6	0.8	0.83	1.7	3.9	.425	1.081	0.48
Pablo 	      1.3  3.0	.425	1.0	2.3	.413	0.1	0.1	1.00	0.3	0.7	.471	1.225	0.59
Murry         1.2  2.9	.421	0.0	0.3	.143	0.5	0.9	0.57	1.2	2.6	.449	1.026	0.43
Felton	      4.3  10.8	.395	1.0	3.6	.289	1.2	1.7	0.71	3.3	7.2	.448	.997	0.44
Iman 	      2.6  6.6	.390	1.2	3.2	.360	1.0	1.3	0.78	1.4	3.4	.420	1.106	0.48
J.R. 	      4.4  12.1	.369	2.1	5.9	.355	1.0	1.7	0.62	2.3	6.2	.381	.995	0.46

It's the underperformance of these 3 guards that are the reason this team is playing so bad. Their playing bad effects everyone else and that includes Bargs. Melo doesn't need any help and he can still get off, but other players need the guards to play well.

Like Copeland, Barg's plays his best at C and actually compliments Melo
AB's 3pt shot isn't anywhere as good as Copeland's developed to me in the later part of the season though
He is however, much longer and better off the dribble

And even at the time of the trade, I have said that I didn't think he would fit with Chandler and Melo but you played multiple scissors and videos/highlights of him to say he would fit...

We won't be a good defensive team because we don't have good defensive players
We are not a good offensive team because Felton and especially JR are not the same players they were last season
Felton is not a PG, JR loss his physical abilities, hunger, and ability to penetrate/defend/rebound consistently

Iman plays his best at SF but is suppose to be play PG/SG at DEFENSE but is sacrificing for the better of the team
However, he now loss his speed and has to bulk up to play the SF more, instead of gaining the speed/mobility/defense needed to be at PG/SG

We can only have one weak link on DEFENSE, while all must be able to hold their own 1v1 for most of the time to run a philosophy unless we have MULTIPLE speedy/athletic/long/versatile skilled players which we don't

The coach just does not get it and favors players rather than make adjustments
He wants to always play a specific style with NO REAL PLAYS and his philosophy is flawed on both ends with the roster

AB, Kmart, Amare (when Kmart and STAT got in NBA shape) were all playing great at PF/C with some minutes at PF for Melo at times, which allowed us to play a complete different style than with Chandler
We were on a winning streak but Woodson favors players and his lineups, ready to demote anyone regardless of how well they were playing....

I'd rather have an offensively deficient player, who still hits a high percentage of shots than a defensively inept player that scores a little over 13 ppg. How is this even a discussion?

SupremeCommander wrote:I'd rather have an offensively deficient player, who still hits a high percentage of shots than a defensively inept player that scores a little over 13 ppg. How is this even a discussion?

He's had his good moments playing Center, but you can't hide his rotten team defense in a switch pholosophy defense. He gets caught up guarding pgs more than half the game, doesn't come out on shooters like most centers..

His 3 point shooting he's right up there with his defense and attention span, which is ridiculously bad.

The one thing we can probably all agree on is that woodson is retarded for playing two 7 footers in a small ball system..

LivingLegend wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:This is on the knicks but moving melo back to 4 from 3 with two slow chugging 7fts killed the the team. With melo at4 gives much more space for our offense. Removing bargs was key. It was a toxic trade that back fired. I doubt he plays another game as a knick good riddance

Stop with this nonsense.

Our guards have been by far the worst guards in the NBA --- all season long.

Bargs has been our 2nd best player all-year and Melo has played very well all season.

We have potentially the worst starting pg and worst starting sg in the NBA and our former defensive player of the year has been completely out-played by BARGs all year.

that may be true, and I said from the start the bargs trade was just dumb.... but not only is our back court bad, but with bargs and meloser on the front line we have one of the slowest and worst defending front lines in the NBA as well... the combination along with the back court is a huge part of the reason why we are 10 games under .500 putting up numbers does not necessarily mean you are playing "very well"..

This is on the coach though. Bargs was playing hard and playing pretty well at points, but we are way too slow to adjust or office or integrate people in. Amare had been starting to fit in better, but they struggled for the better part of a couple years integrating him when he'd be back.

VDesai wrote:This is on the coach though. Bargs was playing hard and playing pretty well at points, but we are way too slow to adjust or office or integrate people in. Amare had been starting to fit in better, but they struggled for the better part of a couple years integrating him when he'd be back.

And surprise! They're both hurt. Gee, where have I heard this before?

Barg's sux from three, plain and simple. His shot chart was not going to be scaring or spreading anyone, particularly Mr. Hibbert.
And now he needs elbow surgery. Buh-bye!

jrodmc wrote:

VDesai wrote:This is on the coach though. Bargs was playing hard and playing pretty well at points, but we are way too slow to adjust or office or integrate people in. Amare had been starting to fit in better, but they struggled for the better part of a couple years integrating him when he'd be back.

And surprise! They're both hurt. Gee, where have I heard this before?

Barg's sux from three, plain and simple. His shot chart was not going to be scaring or spreading anyone, particularly Mr. Hibbert.
And now he needs elbow surgery. Buh-bye!

funny, I said the same thing several times and was called a hater...

can we trade this guy by the deadline? I think Tyler and Cole can pick up his slack

I'm not hating on Bargs, but this offense requires guys to sit stationary at times and shoot the open 3. if we had Pg who can penetrate at will, i would think different about his role, but we have Ray (sometimes i play really good) Felton and he's not good enough to make Bargi better offensively

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

VDesai wrote:This is on the coach though. Bargs was playing hard and playing pretty well at points, but we are way too slow to adjust or office or integrate people in. Amare had been starting to fit in better, but they struggled for the better part of a couple years integrating him when he'd be back.

And surprise! They're both hurt. Gee, where have I heard this before?

Barg's sux from three, plain and simple. His shot chart was not going to be scaring or spreading anyone, particularly Mr. Hibbert.
And now he needs elbow surgery. Buh-bye!

funny, I said the same thing several times and was called a hater...

I'm talking this season, Mr Hate. Look at his full season shot charts compared to this one. He's night and day from what he was for 4-5 years solid in Toronto. At the onset of the season, we had reason to hope and dream. Homers do things like that.

I wouldn't expect you to understand.

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

VDesai wrote:This is on the coach though. Bargs was playing hard and playing pretty well at points, but we are way too slow to adjust or office or integrate people in. Amare had been starting to fit in better, but they struggled for the better part of a couple years integrating him when he'd be back.

And surprise! They're both hurt. Gee, where have I heard this before?

Barg's sux from three, plain and simple. His shot chart was not going to be scaring or spreading anyone, particularly Mr. Hibbert.
And now he needs elbow surgery. Buh-bye!

funny, I said the same thing several times and was called a hater...

I'm talking this season, Mr Hate. Look at his full season shot charts compared to this one. He's night and day from what he was for 4-5 years solid in Toronto. At the onset of the season, we had reason to hope and dream. Homers do things like that.

I wouldn't expect you to understand.

nah.. you don't get it.. when we got this stiff, I said that he still isn't a good enough deep shooter to scare anyone.. add to the fact that he would have to guard other bigs on the other end of the floor, and there really is no advantage here... It was silly to think you were getting the bargs of 4-5 years ago, for christ sakes tornto was trying to give the clown away... and even then the bargs from 4-5 years ago was not what we needed as well..

but I wouldn't expect you to understand... homer

So weird.. ESPN did a nice piece on how Melo moved the ball and created so many open shots vs the Lakers. He must have paid them

fishmike wrote:So weird.. ESPN did a nice piece on how Melo moved the ball and created so many open shots vs the Lakers. He must have paid them

well I am glad you are on board with ESPN fish.. they also had him ranked behind guys like parker, love, george and blake griffin... maybe he didn't pay them enough... but hey since you are quoting them, I am sure you agree with that ranking.. right fish?

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:So weird.. ESPN did a nice piece on how Melo moved the ball and created so many open shots vs the Lakers. He must have paid them

well I am glad you are on board with ESPN fish.. they also had him ranked behind guys like parker, love, george and blake griffin... maybe he didn't pay them enough... but hey since you are quoting them, I am sure you agree with that ranking.. right fish?

hahaha... yea and Melo had a bad game against the Clippers! Your on a roll dude! Cant stop you

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:So weird.. ESPN did a nice piece on how Melo moved the ball and created so many open shots vs the Lakers. He must have paid them

well I am glad you are on board with ESPN fish.. they also had him ranked behind guys like parker, love, george and blake griffin... maybe he didn't pay them enough... but hey since you are quoting them, I am sure you agree with that ranking.. right fish?

hahaha... yea and Melo had a bad game against the Clippers! Your on a roll dude! Cant stop you

I will take that as you waiving the white flag..

smart move fish..