Last nights game sucked all around, no excuses for anyone but I look again at the production from the starting backcourt: 2-9FGs, 6pts, 8assists 56 minutes
So I poked around, because I wanted to know just how bad our backcourt has been and I found this:
http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK5.HTM
Knicks guards:
Get outrebounded
Get out assisted
Are less efficient then their opponents
get outscored
I mean... across the board from points, rebs, assists, PER, literally every stat or category they get out played (usually by alot) EVERY night.
The only thing they arent geting abused on is TOs, overall the opposing guards turn it over 1.5 a game more.
this is why i dont understand why woodson doesn't give murry more of a chance? felton's defense on knight at the end of the game was atrocious last night, he backed off him and let him shoot ball! murry might make a mistake here and there but the kid gives effort and quite frankly has played well when given the opportunity.
Per 82 games.com, this is the opponents production against the Knicks. I knew opponent guards were torching the Kncks, but I didn't fully grasp how much opposing centers own the Knicks too. Our guards suck and Chandler apparently is in Pacino/de Niro mode and just cashing paychecks and coasting on past successes
Pos. FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 18.8 .476 6.2 25% 5.8 7.6 3.7 0.3 3.1 22.9 17.2
SG 16.7 .531 5.3 24% 6.5 4.1 2.7 0.4 2.7 22.2 17.1
SF 15.1 .541 4.0 24% 7.2 3.3 2.3 0.6 4.4 19.4 14.8
PF 13.5 .524 4.5 38% 9.8 2.4 3.0 0.8 4.6 17.6 14.3
C 12.6 .517 5.7 57% 13.4 2.5 2.6 1.7 4.7 17.1 16.8
SupremeCommander wrote:Per 82 games.com, this is the opponents production against the Knicks. I knew opponent guards were torching the Kncks, but I didn't fully grasp how much opposing centers own the Knicks too. Our guards suck and Chandler apparently is in Pacino/de Niro mode and just cashing paychecks and coasting on past successes
Pos. FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 18.8 .476 6.2 25% 5.8 7.6 3.7 0.3 3.1 22.9 17.2
SG 16.7 .531 5.3 24% 6.5 4.1 2.7 0.4 2.7 22.2 17.1
SF 15.1 .541 4.0 24% 7.2 3.3 2.3 0.6 4.4 19.4 14.8
PF 13.5 .524 4.5 38% 9.8 2.4 3.0 0.8 4.6 17.6 14.3
C 12.6 .517 5.7 57% 13.4 2.5 2.6 1.7 4.7 17.1 16.8
As of 1/26 (gosh 82games is so slow!) Chandler has a net PER of +1.5. He's still outproducing his opponent. And he's played better since then.
Bonn1997 wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:Per 82 games.com, this is the opponents production against the Knicks. I knew opponent guards were torching the Kncks, but I didn't fully grasp how much opposing centers own the Knicks too. Our guards suck and Chandler apparently is in Pacino/de Niro mode and just cashing paychecks and coasting on past successes
Pos. FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 18.8 .476 6.2 25% 5.8 7.6 3.7 0.3 3.1 22.9 17.2
SG 16.7 .531 5.3 24% 6.5 4.1 2.7 0.4 2.7 22.2 17.1
SF 15.1 .541 4.0 24% 7.2 3.3 2.3 0.6 4.4 19.4 14.8
PF 13.5 .524 4.5 38% 9.8 2.4 3.0 0.8 4.6 17.6 14.3
C 12.6 .517 5.7 57% 13.4 2.5 2.6 1.7 4.7 17.1 16.8
As of 1/26 (gosh 82games is so slow!) Chandler has a net PER of +1.5. He's still outproducing his opponent. And he's played better since then.
good to know - I am particularly down on the Knicks this morning. Tyson is/was one of my favorites
Exactly. If you are going to resign Melo for $30mil you need to rely on young guys with upside like Murray but the Knicks rather rely on older vet minimum seasoned and NBDL talent. Woodson's offense sucks. He wants to rely on veterans. Problem is you need smart wavy veterans like Kidd. Problem is you can't rely on those guys for 82 games. Something's got to change or we are going to suck or be mediocre for another decade plus. We need a Thibs type who will get the most out of all 15 roster spots. I can only imagine what guys like Thibs & Vogel would do with guys like Murray, Tyler and Shump. They would make sure those guys are ready to step in and contribute and not keep using injuries as an excuse. The more players Woodson has at his disposal the more clueless he looks. They are not practicing the right way. His plans change on a game to game basis. It is really pathetic to watch. But funny at the same time
gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. If you are going to resign Melo for $30mik you need to rely on young guys with upside like Murray but the Knicks rather rely on older vet minimum seasoned and NBDL talent. Woodson's offense sucks. He wants to rely on veterans. Problem is you need smart wavy veterans like Kidd. Problem is you can't rely on those guys for 82 games. Something's got to change or we are going to suck or be mediocre for another decade plus. We need a Thibs type who will get the most out of all 15 roster spots. I can only imagine what guys like Thibs & Vogel would do with guys like Murray, Tyler and Shump. They would make sure those guys are ready to step in and contribute and not keep using injuries as an excuse. The more players Woodson has at his disposal the more clueless he looks. They are not practicing the right way. His plans change on a game to game basis. It is really path if to watch. But funny at the same time
agree with the bold. The key to last year's magic was Kidd had the resume to demand that everyone make the extra pass. This team doesn't do that any more and a lot of that is on Woodson. I'd also like to blame the front office. I was pleased with Melo and JR's production - wtf?!?!?! at the same time?!?!?! - but the overall roster is awful
SupremeCommander wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. If you are going to resign Melo for $30mik you need to rely on young guys with upside like Murray but the Knicks rather rely on older vet minimum seasoned and NBDL talent. Woodson's offense sucks. He wants to rely on veterans. Problem is you need smart wavy veterans like Kidd. Problem is you can't rely on those guys for 82 games. Something's got to change or we are going to suck or be mediocre for another decade plus. We need a Thibs type who will get the most out of all 15 roster spots. I can only imagine what guys like Thibs & Vogel would do with guys like Murray, Tyler and Shump. They would make sure those guys are ready to step in and contribute and not keep using injuries as an excuse. The more players Woodson has at his disposal the more clueless he looks. They are not practicing the right way. His plans change on a game to game basis. It is really path if to watch. But funny at the same time
agree with the bold. The key to last year's magic was Kidd had the resume to demand that everyone make the extra pass. This team doesn't do that any more and a lot of that is on Woodson. I'd also like to blame the front office. I was pleased with Melo and JR's production - wtf?!?!?! at the same time?!?!?! - but the overall roster is awful
this especially, and the players seem to react to the same. When we have a lot of guys coming in and out they suck and seem clueless. When injuries or poor play has guys on the bench and Woody plays 7 they are much better and seem to settle in and know their roles.
Prigo is heady and does often have a stablizing presense, but he simply doesnt fill out the box score enough. Felton is just terrible. I know he has his one every 4 good games but Im done with him. Knicks should be also
nyk4ever wrote:this is why i dont understand why woodson doesn't give murry more of a chance? felton's defense on knight at the end of the game was atrocious last night, he backed off him and let him shoot ball! murry might make a mistake here and there but the kid gives effort and quite frankly has played well when given the opportunity.
Dude, I know. It is so infuriating, though some here think Murry is garbage and can't run an offense. I'm unsure if they're watching the same games as me because, as I've posted before - take away Felton's slow ass penetration for the lob dunk and he is worthless out there. Prigs is the better option (specifically for the O) and that's not saying much.
I mean how can Felton allow himself to get beat on that back door play? That annoyed me more than the 3. Enough already...
You can't praise Woodson when we reel off a few wins when we are undermanned. Happened twice this year and he say the roster sucks when we are healthy and they lose consecutive games
sealy wrote:nyk4ever wrote:this is why i dont understand why woodson doesn't give murry more of a chance? felton's defense on knight at the end of the game was atrocious last night, he backed off him and let him shoot ball! murry might make a mistake here and there but the kid gives effort and quite frankly has played well when given the opportunity.
Dude, I know. It is so infuriating, though some here think Murry is garbage and can't run an offense. I'm unsure if they're watching the same games as me because, as I've posted before - take away Felton's slow ass penetration for the lob dunk and he is worthless out there. Prigs is the better option (specifically for the O) and that's not saying much.
I mean how can Felton allow himself to get beat on that back door play? That annoyed me more than the 3. Enough already...
Yea and opponents are openiy admitting that they are targeting Felton with the back door play and switches
I don't think Dolan wants change. This new salary structure has him shitting bricks. He doesn't want to spend money anymore. Hell they wanted Bynum and they backed off for $1 million. The Knicks never use to back off, Dolan has become more and more fiscally responsible. I don't know if that is good or bad because he had the open wallet it didn't work. Now that Dolan has basically close the wallet it seems like they are not trying to win. He backed out of the Lowery trade also.
I do agree that our two best guards are Beno and Murry. I'm not a big fan of Prigioni and I can't stand Felton. Prigioni if he were younger he would probably be killing it though.
Felton is atrocious. Prig is respectable (as a dude) but SUCKS at the 1, too, especially on D. Felton lost us the game last night. Why would he just let BK shoot for the win? WTF was that?
True, The Sucks should never have been in that position to shoot for the win. But at least Felton should have fouled him and put him at the line for 2 free throws.
Felton and Woody need to GTFO of here.
Also it is not all Raymond Felton he sucks but we sucked when he was out too. To the point where people were excited about his return
gunsnewing wrote:Also it is not all Raymond Felton he sucks but we sucked when he was out too. To the point where people were excited about his return
FACT
Yea things like We need Felton's ability to get in the paint and creAte was thrown around
Meanwhile Murray is buried back on the bench
SupremeCommander wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:Per 82 games.com, this is the opponents production against the Knicks. I knew opponent guards were torching the Kncks, but I didn't fully grasp how much opposing centers own the Knicks too. Our guards suck and Chandler apparently is in Pacino/de Niro mode and just cashing paychecks and coasting on past successes
Pos. FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 18.8 .476 6.2 25% 5.8 7.6 3.7 0.3 3.1 22.9 17.2
SG 16.7 .531 5.3 24% 6.5 4.1 2.7 0.4 2.7 22.2 17.1
SF 15.1 .541 4.0 24% 7.2 3.3 2.3 0.6 4.4 19.4 14.8
PF 13.5 .524 4.5 38% 9.8 2.4 3.0 0.8 4.6 17.6 14.3
C 12.6 .517 5.7 57% 13.4 2.5 2.6 1.7 4.7 17.1 16.8
As of 1/26 (gosh 82games is so slow!) Chandler has a net PER of +1.5. He's still outproducing his opponent. And he's played better since then.
good to know - I am particularly down on the Knicks this morning. Tyson is/was one of my favorites
Oh, it's definitely still been a disappointing season for him and the constant illnesses are worrisome
When every back-court member is this bad, how can you criticize the coaches rotations?
Felton has the worst court vision of any starting pg
Bonn1997 wrote:When every back-court member is this bad, how can you criticize the coaches rotations?
The Knicks are still talented enough to be further up the standings and he hasn't helped matters:
-He never sorted out and stuck to a rotation and is still "trying to figure it out"
-Only just started putting Shump on opposing PGs in, I believe, the last month or so
-Waited almost half a season to go to the 2 PG sets that were a strong point last season
-continues to allow this team to switch non-f'ing-stop
-Shorter rotations, forced by injury, have yielded stronger play (not even talking about the recent weak 4 game winning streak)yet he continues to toss guy's in for inconsistent min and the overall team play decreases as a result
I'm beginning to think his preference for vets is due to his lack of ability to adapt in games.
