dk7th wrote:playa2 wrote:We have never seen Phil Jackson start from scratch and complete anything in the Association.Why give him all this street cred?
when he said the knicks roster was "clumsy" and he was proven 100% correct i think that says something.
also, if he were to institute the triangle he would be looking to find players with skills at positions to flesh out that system. you know... kind of like walsh and d'antoni were trying to do before being shoved aside and shown the door.
you have a plan, a system, and you build according to that plan and system.
i see a scenario where phil gets paid equal or more than anthony-- if he decides to retain anthiny at all, that is. i mean lets face it, there is a hint here that jordan and bryant have succeeded in part due to being able to run the triangle, where other kinds of offensive systems would not allow them to be as successful, especially bryant. there is a possibility that one reason jackson is being spoken of at all is because the triangle could suit anthiny and help him succeed.
it is really up to how smart and good a decision maker anthiny could become. history has shown he is bad at it, given that he was used by d'antoni as something akin to a point forward for a minute.
You mean how Walsh's big 2010 FA signing was a guy that D'antoni didn't even want?
TeamBall wrote:dk7th wrote:playa2 wrote:We have never seen Phil Jackson start from scratch and complete anything in the Association.Why give him all this street cred?
when he said the knicks roster was "clumsy" and he was proven 100% correct i think that says something.
also, if he were to institute the triangle he would be looking to find players with skills at positions to flesh out that system. you know... kind of like walsh and d'antoni were trying to do before being shoved aside and shown the door.
you have a plan, a system, and you build according to that plan and system.
i see a scenario where phil gets paid equal or more than anthony-- if he decides to retain anthiny at all, that is. i mean lets face it, there is a hint here that jordan and bryant have succeeded in part due to being able to run the triangle, where other kinds of offensive systems would not allow them to be as successful, especially bryant. there is a possibility that one reason jackson is being spoken of at all is because the triangle could suit anthiny and help him succeed.
it is really up to how smart and good a decision maker anthiny could become. history has shown he is bad at it, given that he was used by d'antoni as something akin to a point forward for a minute.
You mean how Walsh's big 2010 FA signing was a guy that D'antoni didn't even want?
Who didn't want Amare? OH! EVERY OTHER TEAM!
knicks1248 wrote:Knicks22 wrote:
Didn't Larry Brown have great autonomy? Isiah? Walsh (until the ill fated Melo trade). My point is that best I can tell the history of this owner is that he recruits absolute top names for the front office, spends a fortune doing it, and, with the exception of Melo meddling, seems to me he's allowed too much authority, rather than not given it.Larry didn't work out, Isiah disaster, etc, but, the actual history of this owner seems to me that he does in fact, grant significant latitude to front office (see Sather) to do as they see fit.
You maybe right judging from that god awful trade (ariza for francis) but to many cooks in the kitchen is never a good thing, and with mills, houston, and a slew of other front office exec's it will be interesting to see how this will wrk out.
Doland had every right to step in and throw mosgov into the trade to get denver to except..I just think Grunwald fail to do a good job in ironing out the differences with Melo and MDA..
come on dude!
how can someone as stupid as dolan be guilty of giving too much authority?
here's the more relevant point: how can someone as despicable and destructive as dolan possibly attract top people for positions that require proper team building and a plan?
dolan had NO right to step in when he did because his goal is NOT winning but making money. and he cannot tolerate having people surrounding him who will disagree with him. dolan is a tyrant and if jackson comes in it is with 15 years of history givng momentum to having dolan completely cut off from the knicks except to be told what checks to write.
mreinman wrote:TeamBall wrote:dk7th wrote:playa2 wrote:We have never seen Phil Jackson start from scratch and complete anything in the Association.Why give him all this street cred?
when he said the knicks roster was "clumsy" and he was proven 100% correct i think that says something.
also, if he were to institute the triangle he would be looking to find players with skills at positions to flesh out that system. you know... kind of like walsh and d'antoni were trying to do before being shoved aside and shown the door.
you have a plan, a system, and you build according to that plan and system.
i see a scenario where phil gets paid equal or more than anthony-- if he decides to retain anthiny at all, that is. i mean lets face it, there is a hint here that jordan and bryant have succeeded in part due to being able to run the triangle, where other kinds of offensive systems would not allow them to be as successful, especially bryant. there is a possibility that one reason jackson is being spoken of at all is because the triangle could suit anthiny and help him succeed.
it is really up to how smart and good a decision maker anthiny could become. history has shown he is bad at it, given that he was used by d'antoni as something akin to a point forward for a minute.
You mean how Walsh's big 2010 FA signing was a guy that D'antoni didn't even want?
Who didn't want Amare? OH! EVERY OTHER TEAM!
Sounds like we're agreeing
TeamBall wrote:mreinman wrote:TeamBall wrote:dk7th wrote:playa2 wrote:We have never seen Phil Jackson start from scratch and complete anything in the Association.Why give him all this street cred?
when he said the knicks roster was "clumsy" and he was proven 100% correct i think that says something.
also, if he were to institute the triangle he would be looking to find players with skills at positions to flesh out that system. you know... kind of like walsh and d'antoni were trying to do before being shoved aside and shown the door.
you have a plan, a system, and you build according to that plan and system.
i see a scenario where phil gets paid equal or more than anthony-- if he decides to retain anthiny at all, that is. i mean lets face it, there is a hint here that jordan and bryant have succeeded in part due to being able to run the triangle, where other kinds of offensive systems would not allow them to be as successful, especially bryant. there is a possibility that one reason jackson is being spoken of at all is because the triangle could suit anthiny and help him succeed.
it is really up to how smart and good a decision maker anthiny could become. history has shown he is bad at it, given that he was used by d'antoni as something akin to a point forward for a minute.
You mean how Walsh's big 2010 FA signing was a guy that D'antoni didn't even want?
Who didn't want Amare? OH! EVERY OTHER TEAM!
Sounds like we're agreeing
And lets that MDA and team for amenestying CB and tying us down to an overrated Tyson - handcuffing the sh1t out of us.
I do agree though that trading for Melo was a bad move if you want MDA as your coach.
mreinman wrote:TeamBall wrote:mreinman wrote:TeamBall wrote:dk7th wrote:playa2 wrote:We have never seen Phil Jackson start from scratch and complete anything in the Association.Why give him all this street cred?
when he said the knicks roster was "clumsy" and he was proven 100% correct i think that says something.
also, if he were to institute the triangle he would be looking to find players with skills at positions to flesh out that system. you know... kind of like walsh and d'antoni were trying to do before being shoved aside and shown the door.
you have a plan, a system, and you build according to that plan and system.
i see a scenario where phil gets paid equal or more than anthony-- if he decides to retain anthiny at all, that is. i mean lets face it, there is a hint here that jordan and bryant have succeeded in part due to being able to run the triangle, where other kinds of offensive systems would not allow them to be as successful, especially bryant. there is a possibility that one reason jackson is being spoken of at all is because the triangle could suit anthiny and help him succeed.
it is really up to how smart and good a decision maker anthiny could become. history has shown he is bad at it, given that he was used by d'antoni as something akin to a point forward for a minute.
You mean how Walsh's big 2010 FA signing was a guy that D'antoni didn't even want?
Who didn't want Amare? OH! EVERY OTHER TEAM!
Sounds like we're agreeing
And lets that MDA and team for amenestying CB and tying us down to an overrated Tyson - handcuffing the sh1t out of us.
I do agree though that trading for Melo was a bad move if you want MDA as your coach.
My point was that Walsh signing Amare when D'antoni wanted Lee, added to the fact that him and Amare had to have a meeting to clear the air, doesn't really show a GM who is working with his coach.
This franchise NEVER really worked with MDA. It's clear in the moves they made that they never went all in on the kind of roster that MDA would be successful with. We have to hope that after all the dumb decisions that Phil will finally get the kind of authority to do what needs to be done. Even Dolan has to see how his decisions have failed. He can't possibly think he knows more about BB than Phil.
unless phil gets a long term contract there is no way this will work. If he has a long term contract then he will have the power to say FU to Dolan without an imminent divorce.
mreinman wrote:unless phil gets a long term contract there is no way this will work. If he has a long term contract then he will have the power to say FU to Dolan without an imminent divorce.
this would probably play out exactly like Larry Brown on the off chance this happens
SupremeCommander wrote:mreinman wrote:unless phil gets a long term contract there is no way this will work. If he has a long term contract then he will have the power to say FU to Dolan without an imminent divorce.
this would probably play out exactly like Larry Brown on the off chance this happens
Nah, Larry Brown was a coach who wanted be GM as well. He butted heads with Isiah more than anything else....Dolan gave Isiah power of the franchise, why wouldn't he give Phil the same free-reign?
Uptown wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:mreinman wrote:unless phil gets a long term contract there is no way this will work. If he has a long term contract then he will have the power to say FU to Dolan without an imminent divorce.
this would probably play out exactly like Larry Brown on the off chance this happens
Nah, Larry Brown was a coach who wanted be GM as well. He butted heads with Isiah more than anything else....Dolan gave Isiah power of the franchise, why wouldn't he give Phil the same free-reign?
good point.
but what happens when Jimmy D gets his fingerprints all over the quivalent of Melo deal?
Uptown wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:mreinman wrote:unless phil gets a long term contract there is no way this will work. If he has a long term contract then he will have the power to say FU to Dolan without an imminent divorce.
this would probably play out exactly like Larry Brown on the off chance this happens
Nah, Larry Brown was a coach who wanted be GM as well. He butted heads with Isiah more than anything else....Dolan gave Isiah power of the franchise, why wouldn't he give Phil the same free-reign?
Also you have to assume MSG learned from the Larry saga. If they are bringing in Phil they will have all the expectations mapped out. I would assume they also have some format of a plan agreed on.
Phil wont fight.. he will just say "Well Ive only won 11 titles, so I understand why you might think your idea is better, but for now lets stick to my plan..."
OldFan wrote:playa2 wrote:We have never seen Phil Jackson start from scratch and complete anything in the Association.Why give him all this street cred?
No two situations are the same - but 11 titles is worth something. Just as import I don't think he signs unless he gets complete control and if that removes DOLAN from the decision making that's a huge plus.
If Phil Jackson called the personnel decisions in Chicago and LA, then this looks like a good deal, but if Jimmy D is using this to stop fans from threatening him and win the diehards over then we haven't learned anything.
Dolan blue print to make money with the Knicks has always been starphucking players almost past their prime with injuries, so couldn't he use the same recipe to get on the good graces of diehard fans by duping them again when it comes to big names for the front office ?
playa2 wrote:OldFan wrote:playa2 wrote:We have never seen Phil Jackson start from scratch and complete anything in the Association.Why give him all this street cred?
No two situations are the same - but 11 titles is worth something. Just as import I don't think he signs unless he gets complete control and if that removes DOLAN from the decision making that's a huge plus.
If Phil Jackson called the personnel decisions in Chicago and LA, then this looks like a good deal, but if Jimmy D is using this to stop fans from threatening him and win the diehards over then we haven't learned anything.
Dolan blue print to make money with the Knicks has always been starphucking players almost past their prime with injuries, so couldn't he use the same recipe to get on the good graces of diehard fans by duping them again when it comes to big names for the front office ?
Gotta wait and see before we crucify the move( if it happens), if PJ actually makes some good moves then you can't knock the hussle.
Obvioulsy when they went to talk to him they had to ask him what kind of moves you would make, they didn't just say "hey phil, come work for us your a great guy"
knicks1248 wrote:playa2 wrote:OldFan wrote:playa2 wrote:We have never seen Phil Jackson start from scratch and complete anything in the Association.Why give him all this street cred?
No two situations are the same - but 11 titles is worth something. Just as import I don't think he signs unless he gets complete control and if that removes DOLAN from the decision making that's a huge plus.
If Phil Jackson called the personnel decisions in Chicago and LA, then this looks like a good deal, but if Jimmy D is using this to stop fans from threatening him and win the diehards over then we haven't learned anything.
Dolan blue print to make money with the Knicks has always been starphucking players almost past their prime with injuries, so couldn't he use the same recipe to get on the good graces of diehard fans by duping them again when it comes to big names for the front office ?
Gotta wait and see before we crucify the move( if it happens), if PJ actually makes some good moves then you can't knock the hussle.
Obvioulsy when they went to talk to him they had to ask him what kind of moves you would make, they didn't just say "hey phil, come work for us your a great guy"
I recall Jackson calling the Knicks clumsy, meaning we don't have the right pieces, or we aren't athletic enough for his taste. Who could possibly coach a Phil Jackson type team.
To me that will be the icing on the cake, if Phil isn't on the bench will Herb Williams still be an assistant there? I would think there is a short list for his head coach
This is about to get juicy !
Uptown wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:mreinman wrote:unless phil gets a long term contract there is no way this will work. If he has a long term contract then he will have the power to say FU to Dolan without an imminent divorce.
this would probably play out exactly like Larry Brown on the off chance this happens
Nah, Larry Brown was a coach who wanted be GM as well. He butted heads with Isiah more than anything else....Dolan gave Isiah power of the franchise, why wouldn't he give Phil the same free-reign?
Yup...people forget that it was L.Brown that wanted Ariza traded.
for knick fans old enough to remember the last title we one-- and a team which jackson played a very important role on-- this is a potentially great way to end his nba career.
he should be given free rein to call all the shots.
I can't understand for the life of me how anyone can be against this. What the hell ...
And the other good thing is that if a coach gets fired mid season we have a better mr interim than uncle herb.
Ha- I remember when posters used to call him Fool Jerkson back when he had that feud with JVG!
Woodson learned from his Atlanta days to never hire an assistant with superior basketball IQ ONLY TO LOSE YOU JOB TO HIM. He made sure that no one on this staff would be qualified to undercut him
mreinman wrote:I can't understand for the life of me how anyone can be against this. What the hell ... And the other good thing is that if a coach gets fired mid season we have a better mr interim than uncle herb.
I don't think anyone is against it. It's just that for many people, it doesn't transform their deep pessimism into something much nicer.
