Knicks · Tyson & Felton to Dallas (page 6)
fishmike wrote:NardDogNation wrote:nyvector16 wrote:The only negative of the deal for the Knicks is the extra salary...
Let's break that down...
Next Season - 15/16 Season - 16/17 Season
Felton - 4.3M - 4.5M -
Calderon - 7M - 7.4M - 7.7MDifference: 2.7M - 2.9M - 7.7M
This amount to a total of 13.3M total....
And we got a 2013 1st rounder, TWO 2014 2nd rounders , and a big upgrade at Point guard
I don't see how this was anything but a steal....It's because you're playing the short game and have not taken into consideration the long term ramifications of the deal. This is the type of dumb moves we made in the past that led us to Amar'e Stoudemire and squandered Melo's prime.
no it isn't. Does Calderon have bad knees? No. Has he had previous surgeries? No. Is his game predicated on athleticism? No. He's a heady floor general and a shooter.Please tell me what the long term ramifications are? Seriously, Jose has a great contract. He's paid probably below market value. Jose is making 7.7mm at 36. Not $25mm. I cant see what the issue is with having this guy around for that price. Honestly... what is your concern?
Calderon is 33 years old. That is exactly when the wheels fall off for guards unless your name is Jason Kidd, Steve Nash or John Stockton, who had tons of game to spare in their advanced age. Calderon is a role player at best, however, so I'm not expecting him to maintain his current level of play, which wasn't that impressive to begin with (11ppg, 4.7apg and 2.4apg). At this point in his career, he is a bench player for a contender but at $7 million/yr, he is more of a hindrance than an asset. Just for perspective, Manu Ginobili, a guy who will be in the HOF one day is making $7 million/yr coming off the bench. Calderon is no Ginobili and I don't even like Ginobili at this stage of his career.
EwingsGlass wrote:NardDogNation wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:NardDogNation wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:I would guess this is a clear sign that Melo is signing elsewhere. I see this as an economic move that acquires some future assets. More importantly, it means the Knicks can actually be under the cap this year if they end up cutting Dalembert (meaning not exercising his option).Correct me if I am wrong, but being under the cap this year would allow us to not be in the repeater tax penalty for a few years after the 2015 class comes out. So, by biting the bullet this year and rebuilding this year, they can have 3 years more of exceeding the salary cap without higher luxury tax.
I think the Calderon contract is moveable still before the trade deadline. Perhaps the hope is Calderon can bring the best back out of Bargnani.
I like the deal, but wonder what this year will look like in terms of rebuilding.
By my estimations, this leaves one roster spot. I would expect to see one more triangle player. My prediction, is that Gasol maybe ends up here on a relationship special.
Calderon/Larkin/Prigs
Hardaway/Smith/Ellington
Odom/Shumpert
Bargnani/Stoudemire
[Gasol][Dalembert?]/Tyler[#34][#51]
Even with Melo and Dalembert not on the payroll, we'd still have $64 million of contracts on the books. The cap is at $63 million and I'm not sure if we can get far enough below it for cap space to be consequential. That being said, Pau Gasol is not signing up for the midlevel exception to play for a rebuilding team. It just isn't going to happen.
Perhaps my math is off, but I believe cutting Dalembert brings us down to $61MM. Regardless, even if over by $1mm -$2mm, that can be solved with a move or two. The purpose of being under the cap wouldnt be to sign other players, but instead to not be a repeat offender next year in terms of exceeding the cap.
Who cares if we're a repeat offender? I'm not footing the bill? Are you?
If it means we have greater ability to add salary in 2015-2018, yeah, I care. The Knicks pockets are deep, not unlimited.
It'll have no bearing on our ability to add salary in 2015-2018 unless we are over the luxury tax...but since we'll likely have cap space in 2015, the repeater tax becomes irrelevant.
TheSage wrote:Calderon's contract can be restructured so the hit in year 3 is reduced so that it is not consequential
Restructured and reduced how? By what mechanism in the CBA?
NardDogNation wrote:What does Manu have to do with this? Nothing. Who are all these guards that drop off at 33? Hell... how many of us would love to have Prigioni only 5 years younger. This is one of the most efficient players ever. His assist to TO ratio is otherworldly. His shooting is among all time greats. The guy has a great skill set.fishmike wrote:NardDogNation wrote:nyvector16 wrote:The only negative of the deal for the Knicks is the extra salary...
Let's break that down...
Next Season - 15/16 Season - 16/17 Season
Felton - 4.3M - 4.5M -
Calderon - 7M - 7.4M - 7.7MDifference: 2.7M - 2.9M - 7.7M
This amount to a total of 13.3M total....
And we got a 2013 1st rounder, TWO 2014 2nd rounders , and a big upgrade at Point guard
I don't see how this was anything but a steal....It's because you're playing the short game and have not taken into consideration the long term ramifications of the deal. This is the type of dumb moves we made in the past that led us to Amar'e Stoudemire and squandered Melo's prime.
no it isn't. Does Calderon have bad knees? No. Has he had previous surgeries? No. Is his game predicated on athleticism? No. He's a heady floor general and a shooter.Please tell me what the long term ramifications are? Seriously, Jose has a great contract. He's paid probably below market value. Jose is making 7.7mm at 36. Not $25mm. I cant see what the issue is with having this guy around for that price. Honestly... what is your concern?
Calderon is 33 years old. That is exactly when the wheels fall off for guards unless your name is Jason Kidd, Steve Nash or John Stockton, who had tons of game to spare in their advanced age. Calderon is a role player at best, however, so I'm not expecting him to maintain his current level of play, which wasn't that impressive to begin with (11ppg, 4.7apg and 2.4apg). At this point in his career, he is a bench player for a contender but at $7 million/yr, he is more of a hindrance than an asset. Just for perspective, Manu Ginobili, a guy who will be in the HOF one day is making $7 million/yr coming off the bench. Calderon is no Ginobili and I don't even like Ginobili at this stage of his career.
Hey... if you dont like the deal or the player its fine. Im exact opposite. Go look at Felton's splits from this year. In wins he's good. In losses he's terrible. Its that simple. WE need heady and consistent guard play. That is the one and only difference between 54 wins and 37 wins.
yellowboy90 wrote:now can Phil get rid of Amar'e or Bargs?
With a real pg I think Amare and Bargs may benefit, Larkin is a big mans dream. I'm still wondering why dallas let him go, that was a major steal
knicks1248 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:now can Phil get rid of Amar'e or Bargs?With a real pg I think Amare and Bargs may benefit, Larkin is a big mans dream. I'm still wondering why dallas let him go, that was a major steal
Agreed Larkin could turn into a real nice piece
knicks1248 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:now can Phil get rid of Amar'e or Bargs?With a real pg I think Amare and Bargs may benefit, Larkin is a big mans dream. I'm still wondering why dallas let him go, that was a major steal
They also have Mekel, who looked pretty good in SL, but didnt play much. Might be getting a larger role.
knicks1248 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:now can Phil get rid of Amar'e or Bargs?With a real pg I think Amare and Bargs may benefit, Larkin is a big mans dream. I'm still wondering why dallas let him go, that was a major steal
His specialty is pick & roll and using his quickness to penetrate & run the floor. Nice compliment to Calderon & Priggy
NardDogNation wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:NardDogNation wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:NardDogNation wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:I would guess this is a clear sign that Melo is signing elsewhere. I see this as an economic move that acquires some future assets. More importantly, it means the Knicks can actually be under the cap this year if they end up cutting Dalembert (meaning not exercising his option).Correct me if I am wrong, but being under the cap this year would allow us to not be in the repeater tax penalty for a few years after the 2015 class comes out. So, by biting the bullet this year and rebuilding this year, they can have 3 years more of exceeding the salary cap without higher luxury tax.
I think the Calderon contract is moveable still before the trade deadline. Perhaps the hope is Calderon can bring the best back out of Bargnani.
I like the deal, but wonder what this year will look like in terms of rebuilding.
By my estimations, this leaves one roster spot. I would expect to see one more triangle player. My prediction, is that Gasol maybe ends up here on a relationship special.
Calderon/Larkin/Prigs
Hardaway/Smith/Ellington
Odom/Shumpert
Bargnani/Stoudemire
[Gasol][Dalembert?]/Tyler[#34][#51]
Even with Melo and Dalembert not on the payroll, we'd still have $64 million of contracts on the books. The cap is at $63 million and I'm not sure if we can get far enough below it for cap space to be consequential. That being said, Pau Gasol is not signing up for the midlevel exception to play for a rebuilding team. It just isn't going to happen.
Perhaps my math is off, but I believe cutting Dalembert brings us down to $61MM. Regardless, even if over by $1mm -$2mm, that can be solved with a move or two. The purpose of being under the cap wouldnt be to sign other players, but instead to not be a repeat offender next year in terms of exceeding the cap.
Who cares if we're a repeat offender? I'm not footing the bill? Are you?
If it means we have greater ability to add salary in 2015-2018, yeah, I care. The Knicks pockets are deep, not unlimited.
It'll have no bearing on our ability to add salary in 2015-2018 unless we are over the luxury tax...but since we'll likely have cap space in 2015, the repeater tax becomes irrelevant.
I am not sure if that is true if we use that cap space.
fishmike wrote:NardDogNation wrote:What does Manu have to do with this? Nothing. Who are all these guards that drop off at 33? Hell... how many of us would love to have Prigioni only 5 years younger. This is one of the most efficient players ever. His assist to TO ratio is otherworldly. His shooting is among all time greats. The guy has a great skill set.fishmike wrote:NardDogNation wrote:nyvector16 wrote:The only negative of the deal for the Knicks is the extra salary...
Let's break that down...
Next Season - 15/16 Season - 16/17 Season
Felton - 4.3M - 4.5M -
Calderon - 7M - 7.4M - 7.7MDifference: 2.7M - 2.9M - 7.7M
This amount to a total of 13.3M total....
And we got a 2013 1st rounder, TWO 2014 2nd rounders , and a big upgrade at Point guard
I don't see how this was anything but a steal....It's because you're playing the short game and have not taken into consideration the long term ramifications of the deal. This is the type of dumb moves we made in the past that led us to Amar'e Stoudemire and squandered Melo's prime.
no it isn't. Does Calderon have bad knees? No. Has he had previous surgeries? No. Is his game predicated on athleticism? No. He's a heady floor general and a shooter.Please tell me what the long term ramifications are? Seriously, Jose has a great contract. He's paid probably below market value. Jose is making 7.7mm at 36. Not $25mm. I cant see what the issue is with having this guy around for that price. Honestly... what is your concern?
Calderon is 33 years old. That is exactly when the wheels fall off for guards unless your name is Jason Kidd, Steve Nash or John Stockton, who had tons of game to spare in their advanced age. Calderon is a role player at best, however, so I'm not expecting him to maintain his current level of play, which wasn't that impressive to begin with (11ppg, 4.7apg and 2.4apg). At this point in his career, he is a bench player for a contender but at $7 million/yr, he is more of a hindrance than an asset. Just for perspective, Manu Ginobili, a guy who will be in the HOF one day is making $7 million/yr coming off the bench. Calderon is no Ginobili and I don't even like Ginobili at this stage of his career.
Hey... if you dont like the deal or the player its fine. Im exact opposite. Go look at Felton's splits from this year. In wins he's good. In losses he's terrible. Its that simple. WE need heady and consistent guard play. That is the one and only difference between 54 wins and 37 wins.
I pointed to Manu Ginobili because you establish the market value of a player by comparing him to his contemporaries. We established that Calderon is a bench player, we know Ginobili is a bench player, we know Ginobili makes $7 million per year. Therefore, Calderon is overpaid because he makes the same as Ginobili and is an inferior player.
EwingsGlass wrote:NardDogNation wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:NardDogNation wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:NardDogNation wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:I would guess this is a clear sign that Melo is signing elsewhere. I see this as an economic move that acquires some future assets. More importantly, it means the Knicks can actually be under the cap this year if they end up cutting Dalembert (meaning not exercising his option).Correct me if I am wrong, but being under the cap this year would allow us to not be in the repeater tax penalty for a few years after the 2015 class comes out. So, by biting the bullet this year and rebuilding this year, they can have 3 years more of exceeding the salary cap without higher luxury tax.
I think the Calderon contract is moveable still before the trade deadline. Perhaps the hope is Calderon can bring the best back out of Bargnani.
I like the deal, but wonder what this year will look like in terms of rebuilding.
By my estimations, this leaves one roster spot. I would expect to see one more triangle player. My prediction, is that Gasol maybe ends up here on a relationship special.
Calderon/Larkin/Prigs
Hardaway/Smith/Ellington
Odom/Shumpert
Bargnani/Stoudemire
[Gasol][Dalembert?]/Tyler[#34][#51]
Even with Melo and Dalembert not on the payroll, we'd still have $64 million of contracts on the books. The cap is at $63 million and I'm not sure if we can get far enough below it for cap space to be consequential. That being said, Pau Gasol is not signing up for the midlevel exception to play for a rebuilding team. It just isn't going to happen.
Perhaps my math is off, but I believe cutting Dalembert brings us down to $61MM. Regardless, even if over by $1mm -$2mm, that can be solved with a move or two. The purpose of being under the cap wouldnt be to sign other players, but instead to not be a repeat offender next year in terms of exceeding the cap.
Who cares if we're a repeat offender? I'm not footing the bill? Are you?
If it means we have greater ability to add salary in 2015-2018, yeah, I care. The Knicks pockets are deep, not unlimited.
It'll have no bearing on our ability to add salary in 2015-2018 unless we are over the luxury tax...but since we'll likely have cap space in 2015, the repeater tax becomes irrelevant.
I am not sure if that is true if we use that cap space.
Then I can assure you it is true. Repeater tax only increases the tax bill in subsequent years for tax paying teams.
Don't under estimate Phil Jackson. Larkin might be a steal
Absolutely thrilled Phil cut the ties with Tyson, and I think upgrading from Felton to Calderon will mean the world to this team's performance next season.
That said, bringing in Calderon does have me wondering what the grand scheme is, when it was seemingly to maximize cap space in 2015.
Overall, a pretty damn good haul for Tyson/Felton.
anrst wrote:who does larkin compare to? all i know is the highlights i just watched on youtube. reminds me of dj augustine.
Better at pick n roll with a are & Bargnani. More heady. More athletic, more speed & better finisher. Great family. Barry Larkin's son
MaTT4281 wrote:I think this trade improves us in both the short term and the long term. I really like Larkin as a PG prospect (his tenacity reminded me of Nate Robinson - I remember him setting picks on the Clippers big men last season, and absolutely pounding it inside) and that #34 pick in a deep draft is terrific.
Absolutely thrilled Phil cut the ties with Tyson, and I think upgrading from Felton to Calderon will mean the world to this team's performance next season.That said, bringing in Calderon does have me wondering what the grand scheme is, when it was seemingly to maximize cap space in 2015.
Overall, a pretty damn good haul for Tyson/Felton.
Agree with everything.
If we come out with Marc gasol in 2015 for a lot less then Aldridge/love I will be happy. Or wait for durant's class. You can package Bargnani with Calderon like we just packaged Tyson with Felton as his contract reaches it's expiration. Tons of flexibility here from the Knicks for once
NardDogNation wrote:TheSage wrote:Calderon's contract can be restructured so the hit in year 3 is reduced so that it is not consequentialRestructured and reduced how? By what mechanism in the CBA?
I think he meant the stretch provision. We would waive Calderon in year three and stretch the salary for a lesser cap hit. TheSage can correct me if I'm assuming wrong here.