Knicks · Great article by Simmons about Melo, balanced view (page 2)
mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.
and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
nixluva wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
You're making valid points here, but I think it's still possible for Phil to be successful in putting together a team that can perform at a high level with the 2011 Mavs type of team. It's not just about the players but also the way the team plays. This team is going to be playing a very team oriented style of ball and we have some good role players that should excel in that style of play. Then it's up to Melo to do his part in that system. I think it can work.
We've never seen Melo play in such a refined system as this. It could add a very nice boost to his performance and his teammates. Just seeing the Kid Knicks quickly applying the principles gives hope.
here is the problem with that. carmelo already had chandler and I don't agree with simmons on a past peak chandler because he won DPOY while he was hear, he was still playing at a very high level... but getting back to the point... how do you really put a team like that together? marion is a unique player and was past his prime? Terry was on the downside of his career a bit... I mean you really don't try to put that type of team together.. now when they first were put together it was a good mix.. a good mix that happened to put it all together right at the end.. remember, kidd played well but was truly towards the end of his career... again, how do you go about replicating such a team..
I think what it highlights is how hard it is going to be to build a winner around carmelo.... the bulls was his best chance or best fit...
We've never seen Melo play in such a refined system as this. It could add a very nice boost to his performance and his teammates. Just seeing the Kid Knicks quickly applying the principles gives hope.
nixluva, the triangle isn't some magic elixir... carmelo's troubles extend beyond not playing in the triangle... Its nice to see the kids playing well, as it is easier to mold young minds... but again it is just summer league as well..
mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
why would I need to do that as most players who are in that bracket went back to teams that were contenders or champs.... heck carmelo could have went to the rockets who are much better than we are and still got max dollars...
can you give me an example of a player where that was an option? It seems like players making that much are playing for teams that they have turned into winners.. so why leave?
you see it is about mindset.. winners put winning first.. so you rarely find them in position to have to leave 50 mil on the table...
Better question show me an example of where a player can leave a team and leave 25 mil on the table and the team he was leaving was better than the team he was going to.... I will give you a hint.. his initials are CA...
mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
I can't think of one but that is a great question. The responses should be interesting.
tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
why would I need to do that as most players who are in that bracket went back to teams that were contenders or champs.... heck carmelo could have went to the rockets who are much better than we are and still got max dollars...
can you give me an example of a player where that was an option? It seems like players making that much are playing for teams that they have turned into winners.. so why leave?
you see it is about mindset.. winners put winning first.. so you rarely find them in position to have to leave 50 mil on the table...
Better question show me an example of where a player can leave a team and leave 25 mil on the table and the team he was leaving was better than the team he was going to.... I will give you a hint.. his initials are CA...
exactly-- why put the cart before the horse? the guy is not on the same level, but because he is being paid as such we now have to equate him with real winners? pretzel logic if ever there was.
take stock in your career vis a vis winning, look in the mirror, take a substantial paycut-- and proceed.
dk7th wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
why would I need to do that as most players who are in that bracket went back to teams that were contenders or champs.... heck carmelo could have went to the rockets who are much better than we are and still got max dollars...
can you give me an example of a player where that was an option? It seems like players making that much are playing for teams that they have turned into winners.. so why leave?
you see it is about mindset.. winners put winning first.. so you rarely find them in position to have to leave 50 mil on the table...
Better question show me an example of where a player can leave a team and leave 25 mil on the table and the team he was leaving was better than the team he was going to.... I will give you a hint.. his initials are CA...
exactly-- why put the cart before the horse? the guy is not on the same level, but because he is being paid as such we now have to equate him with real winners? pretzel logic if ever there was.
take stock in your career vis a vis winning, look in the mirror, take a substantial paycut-- and proceed.
So you guys don't have an answer. I am not able to think of anyone either.
Houston would have been a smart move for him. Not sure what about Houston turned him off - maybe he just did not like the City or Lala/kids did not want Houston. I think that he wanted a S&T to chicago but it was not happening.
I do not get your last comment.
CA and the rest of them all want the money and all want to win.
CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
I can't think of one but that is a great question. The responses should be interesting.
dirk took 16 million less the year over four years he won the finals and was finals mvp, if memory serves. and as the article had stated, dirk is a superior player to carmelo with far greater accomplishments.
ergo carmelo, being inferior and with a less-accomplished career, should have taken at least 30 million less over five years.
dk7th wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
I can't think of one but that is a great question. The responses should be interesting.
dirk took 16 million less the year over four years he won the finals and was finals mvp, if memory serves. and as the article had stated, dirk is a superior player to carmelo with far greater accomplishments.
ergo carmelo, being inferior and with a less-accomplished career, should have taken at least 30 million less over five years.
talk about pretzel logic
mreinman wrote:dk7th wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
I can't think of one but that is a great question. The responses should be interesting.
dirk took 16 million less the year over four years he won the finals and was finals mvp, if memory serves. and as the article had stated, dirk is a superior player to carmelo with far greater accomplishments.
ergo carmelo, being inferior and with a less-accomplished career, should have taken at least 30 million less over five years.
talk about pretzel logic
Pretty much. Throw in no state or city income tax in Dallsa and 16 mil and 7 mil are about the same.
mreinman wrote:dk7th wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
I can't think of one but that is a great question. The responses should be interesting.
dirk took 16 million less the year over four years he won the finals and was finals mvp, if memory serves. and as the article had stated, dirk is a superior player to carmelo with far greater accomplishments.
ergo carmelo, being inferior and with a less-accomplished career, should have taken at least 30 million less over five years.
talk about pretzel logic
how so? I took the main premise or point of comparison in his article
1) dirk nowitzki, who the author acknowledged is the superior player to carmelo anthony, and you presumably agree with his assessment
then i took a historical event
2) dirk took 16 million less on a four year contract, the first year of which he won the finals mvp
then i put these two points together and concluded that if dirk can take 4 million off of 4 years then melo as the inferior to dirk can take 6 million off of five years.
ergo carmelo could have-- and should have-- taken 30 million less if he wanted to help build a winner here in new york.
at this point most of his most earnest admirers hoped that he would take closer to 20 million a year.
guess what 20 million times 5 equals?
the end
CrushAlot wrote:dk7th wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:mreinman wrote:tkf wrote:I read this earlier.. he was playing devils advocate a bit but in the end he is right. carmelo blew it twice.. when he forced his way to NY and not going to the bulls roster..Although he correctly pointed out carmelo needs a 2011 mavs type of team, dirk was just a better player than carmelo and even that team came together under all the right circumstances...
If his only hope is getting that type of team, then he is chasing a unicorn... going with the bulls made so much sense.. but carmelo is looking for money.. not rings it seems..
So he should have gone to the Bulls for 73 million instead of resigning where he lives at 122?
C'mon, get real. I am sure you may have done this since for you its probably not about "the money" but the rest of us are taking the 122.
Would have been nice if he gave us a bigger discount though.
had I already made around 150 mil, I would have taken a lot less if I am all about winning and trust me.. I am all about winning...
but the rest of us are taking the 122.and that is what separates the winners from "the rest"
Can you show me an example where a player left 50 million on the table?
why would I need to do that as most players who are in that bracket went back to teams that were contenders or champs.... heck carmelo could have went to the rockets who are much better than we are and still got max dollars...
can you give me an example of a player where that was an option? It seems like players making that much are playing for teams that they have turned into winners.. so why leave?
you see it is about mindset.. winners put winning first.. so you rarely find them in position to have to leave 50 mil on the table...
Better question show me an example of where a player can leave a team and leave 25 mil on the table and the team he was leaving was better than the team he was going to.... I will give you a hint.. his initials are CA...
exactly-- why put the cart before the horse? the guy is not on the same level, but because he is being paid as such we now have to equate him with real winners? pretzel logic if ever there was.
take stock in your career vis a vis winning, look in the mirror, take a substantial paycut-- and proceed.
So you guys don't have an answer. I am not able to think of anyone either.
it's like trying to answer, "show me a person who has jumped out of a plane without a chute and landed on their feet? well first of all show me a person who has actually attempted that..
what he is asking there hasn't been a case of, and partly due to the fact that most players in that pay bracket are going back to winning situations. . carmelo is not....
mreinman wrote:So you are not actually suggesting that he leave 50 million on the table but he just should not be in that position?Houston would have been a smart move for him. Not sure what about Houston turned him off - maybe he just did not like the City or Lala/kids did not want Houston. I think that he wanted a S&T to chicago but it was not happening.
I do not get your last comment.
CA and the rest of them all want the money and all want to win.
first of all there was not 50 million to be left on the table... unless you think that after 4 years carmelo retires.. so we can all assume he would be signing another deal after 4 years..
what I was suggesting is to do whatever it takes to get in a winning situation... and when you do that you most often if ever will be faced with leaving a lot of money on the table.. a better question is.. what player has been faced with such a situation? making that kind of money?
Outside of adding another max level player, the rest of the team needs to be made up of lower cost talent. Phil is doing his best to make that happen. This is where the real rubber hits the road in terms of winning and being a title contender. Gotta make picks count and find diamonds in the rough out there. Do a great job developing that talent and then when you do add a max level player it all means something cuz you're team is full of worthy role players.
gunsnewing wrote:I think $110-115 is the number that would've appeased everyone. Again bosh got 118m but he ready has 2 rings. Melo is chasing his first. I would've taken more than $6mil discount over 5yrs to give Phil the option of adding another star or 2 really good players. Depending on what is out there. It's all about having options and flexibility. $14m less than max would've been perfect
Good points, Bosh's contract is irrelevant to Melo's, but if it is dragged into the discussion let us not forget that Bosh has already achieved priority 1 by winning rings. He made his sacrifice and now he can get paid. So he and Melo are in fact in different situations. Bosh is an inferior player and not at all worth his contract, but now that he has won, Bosh has the luxury of making all that money, knowing he had his time in the sun as the heat's third wheel. If Melo won two championships with the Knicks no one would care if he got every cent the Knicks could have offered, which is why you don't hear Miami fans complaining about Bosh being overpaid now.
nixluva wrote:There really is no point to arguing over how much money Melo should've given up. People forget about Taxes and Manager fees. You really can't just look at the totals and ignore what his actual Net would be after all that. I could care less what he makes. I'm glad Melo is still here and that we have a chance to win with better leadership going forward.Outside of adding another max level player, the rest of the team needs to be made up of lower cost talent. Phil is doing his best to make that happen. This is where the real rubber hits the road in terms of winning and being a title contender. Gotta make picks count and find diamonds in the rough out there. Do a great job developing that talent and then when you do add a max level player it all means something cuz you're team is full of worthy role players.
You are right. How could he leave $180k in taxes on $115m on the table
nixluva wrote:There really is no point to arguing over how much money Melo should've given up. People forget about Taxes and Manager fees. You really can't just look at the totals and ignore what his actual Net would be after all that. I could care less what he makes. I'm glad Melo is still here and that we have a chance to win with better leadership going forward.
Nixluva you are one of my favorite posters on here because of your bb knowledge, but I think we both know this is nonsense.
Its fine to stop talking about his salary, but let's not pretend he threw himself on the sword with this deal.