Knicks · Bargs: Do you agree with Jackson when it comes to Bargnani? Do you think Bargnani can be a “surprise” for the Knicks (page 1)

having read this and the article about Calderon, I'm worried the problem here is Anthony - that he is a simple ball hog - not selfish, but simply unable to pass the ball and facilitate movement on the offense.

Flame On!

Here's whats so stupid about this article, because during the 15-27 record that we had before he went down, does he even take into account,

1) Woodson in those 47 games, used 20+ different line ups
2) Jr smith was so bad,
3) Amare was getting 10 to 15 minutes of playing time, a recipe for disaster if your trying to build chemistry
4) felton was just as bad as JR if not worse
5) Tyson chandler broke his leg
6) shumpert was to be traded every other day
7) One minute it was udrih, then priggs, then felton, another chemistry killer
8) How many minutes did he actually play with Melo
9) Didn't know it took 47 games to develop good chemistry with players you never played with in your life
10)One minute woody started him, the next he came off the bench

You should have put this in the metric thread..it's all Bull sht that takes a small % of stats and try and make it the big picture.

To me Bargs sucks and is a net negative on the court until he proves otherwise. Jackson is talking him
up and paying lip service cause we are stuck with him til 2015.

Onviously I don't have high hopes for a Bargs renaissance. Believe me I wish it will happen but I think it's well past proven that he is garbage no matter what system he is in.

I hope I'm wrong (I've been wrong many times before and am a pessimist so...)

knicks1248 wrote:Here's whats so stupid about this article, because during the 15-27 record that we had before he went down, does he even take into account,

1) Woodson in those 47 games, used 20+ different line ups
2) Jr smith was so bad,
3) Amare was getting 10 to 15 minutes of playing time, a recipe for disaster if your trying to build chemistry
4) felton was just as bad as JR if not worse
5) Tyson chandler broke his leg
6) shumpert was to be traded every other day
7) One minute it was udrih, then priggs, then felton, another chemistry killer
8) How many minutes did he actually play with Melo
9) Didn't know it took 47 games to develop good chemistry with players you never played with in your life
10)One minute woody started him, the next he came off the bench

You should have put this in the metric thread..it's all Bull sht that takes a small % of stats and try and make it the big picture.

Wasn't Kmart on the same minute restriction as Amare? I think they were both only allowed to play every other game.

When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

This Bargnani stuff kind of reminds me of all of the "this year, Eddy Currie is going to get it together and then look out" stuff from years ago. Not going to happen. He is a stiff, and that is all.

Phil playing mind games. Bargs stinks and he knows it. Whent the president and gm both say the team is unbalanced thats an indictment on every big on the team, bargs included.

knickscity wrote:Phil playing mind games. Bargs stinks and he knows it. Whent the president and gm both say the team is unbalanced thats an indictment on every big on the team, bargs included.

The imbalance is at SG not the bigs!!! Also I think Phil does really think he can help get Bargs going. Why shouldn't he? He knows that the Triangle is a good system for a big like Bargs.

“During the 2011-12 NBA season, as you can see from the chart above, Andrea Bargnani led the league in points per possession based on a minimum of 75 Pick and Pop possessions. Now keep in mind these stats are based soley on the Pick and Pop play type via Synergy Sports Technology extensive database. Take a look at the long list of All-Stars that fall behind Bargnani in this extremely important play type run multiple times during the course of an NBA game and season. Tim Duncan, Kevin Love, Kevin Garnett, LaMarcus Aldridge, Marc Gasol even former Knick David Lee, all trail Bargnani in points per possession which in essence is one of the more notable and realistic metrics used to gauge the efficiency of a player’s skill set.

Ultimately, the points-per-possession metric is a tremendous indicator of how a player maximizes an offensive possession. In Bargnani’s case, although the sample size during 2011-12 was relatively small in terms of games played, he not only was the most efficient player in Pick and Pop play types, but he scored the most points per game and got to the free throw line the highest percentage out of all players in the league.

Phil and Fish are probably aware of stats like this. Woody was oblivious to it and failed to take note of what was working. Phil and Fish will not do that.

We have 8 years of data to know that Bargnani is a terrible fucking player. And the triangle is going to expose him even more, assuming he isn't nailed to the bench where he belongs. One of the most important aspects of the triangle offense is moving without the ball and passing; two skills that Bargnani has show literally 0 aptitude for. At his best he is an absolute net zero on the floor and his past 8 season have shows he's rarely at his best.

H1AND1 wrote:To me Bargs sucks and is a net negative on the court until he proves otherwise. Jackson is talking him
up and paying lip service cause we are stuck with him til 2015.

Onviously I don't have high hopes for a Bargs renaissance. Believe me I wish it will happen but I think it's well past proven that he is garbage no matter what system he is in.

I hope I'm wrong (I've been wrong many times before and am a pessimist so...)

Always better to be a pessimist... you can never be disappointed when proven right, and when you're wrong you're happy to be so.

I think Bargnani will have a resurgence, offensively, and do fine with the Triangle.

Problem is on the other end, where it will be hard to teach a guy, who for years has been a poor rebounder and help defender, how to do better in those areas. Some of this has to do with a kind of instinct that you've developed over the years. He simply does not have that ball hawking mentality that good rebounders have and a weak side help attitude that you see in the best shot blockers.

You may be able to get him to think about these things a little more, and maybe he makes some effort, but you really need him paired with players who can mask his deficiencies.

VCoug wrote:

We have 8 years of data to know that Bargnani is a terrible fucking player. And the triangle is going to expose him even more, assuming he isn't nailed to the bench where he belongs. One of the most important aspects of the triangle offense is moving without the ball and passing; two skills that Bargnani has show literally 0 aptitude for. At his best he is an absolute net zero on the floor and his past 8 season have shows he's rarely at his best.

Don't want to get into specific players here, but I'm thinking that this criticism can be leveled against MANY players on the Knicks. Some of the the blame is on Woodson, but we also have many players who were fine with ISO ball.

How many times, except for the pick and roll, did guys cut to the basket last year? How many times did we have guys try to use a pick to get free for a jumper?

I have issues with Bargnani, and he was a disappointment in many ways, but he was part of a general problem, one that Phil and Fisher have to deal with and change the first day of training camp.

The triangle is magic Zen it will cure bargs

The bigger issue last season for Bargnani was that he never fit well on the floor with Carmelo Anthony. The Knicks hoped Bargnani could be a strong secondary scoring option. That didn’t happen.

New York outscored teams by 3.5 points per 100 possessions when Anthony was on the court without Bargnani. But when Anthony and Bargnani shared the floor, the Knicks were outscored by 3.9 points per 100 possessions.

I dboubt that's because Bargs/Melo is specifically a bad pairing. It's just that Bargs is bad when paired with anyone in the game of basketball.

franco12 wrote:having read this and the article about Calderon, I'm worried the problem here is Anthony - that he is a simple ball hog - not selfish, but simply unable to pass the ball and facilitate movement on the offense.

Flame On!

His coach supported the hogging.

nixluva wrote:When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

where do you come up with these things?

knickscity wrote:Phil playing mind games. Bargs stinks and he knows it. Whent the president and gm both say the team is unbalanced thats an indictment on every big on the team, bargs included.

well it is not just a question of quality it is more a function of quantitiy. the knicks don't have a enough big men period.

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

where do you come up with these things?

Bargs lost his confidence a couple of years back.
He actually lost on the court most of the time.
And he cannot be found on defense even by CIA and FBI.

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

where do you come up with these things?

What the F were you watching at the start of the year when Bargs was in FACT the 2nd best player on the team. Don't piss on my posts if you're not gonna back up what you say with SOMETHING. I hate that ISH.

Bargs:  32.7 mpg 47.4% FG  37.0% 3pt 81.1% FT 5.8 reb 1.3 blks 16.4 pts
Felton: 35.1 mpg 36.6% FG  23.7% 3pt 85.7% FT 2.8 reb 5.8 ast  9.9  pts
JR:     31.5 mpg 32.8$ FG  28.6% 3pt 59.1% FT 4.6 reb 1.9 ast  11.7 pts

The poor coaching and poor play of our guards sucked the life out of Bargs. All those losses broke team spirit. Before Bargs lost all his confidence and enthusiasm, he was doing OK. Woody didn't make sure to keep him a part of the action. Bargs is the kind of player that has to be involved. He'll drift if he's not getting touches. That's the beauty of the Triangle, the ball gets to touch everyones hands and they are all active and engaged on every play.

The ZenMaster is trying to make lemonade out of lemons. He is trying to increase his trade value and make him feel supported. But there is no doubt, if Phil can get rid of him at a reasonable price, he will do so. Of course, what he says makes sense, his arguments are well supported. But Bargnani at this point should not be in the league, he should retire and just be happy that he's been overpaid all these years.

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

where do you come up with these things?

What the F were you watching at the start of the year when Bargs was in FACT the 2nd best player on the team. Don't piss on my posts if you're not gonna back up what you say with SOMETHING. I hate that ISH.

Bargs:  32.7 mpg 47.4% FG  37.0% 3pt 81.1% FT 5.8 reb 1.3 blks 16.4 pts
Felton: 35.1 mpg 36.6% FG  23.7% 3pt 85.7% FT 2.8 reb 5.8 ast  9.9  pts
JR:     31.5 mpg 32.8$ FG  28.6% 3pt 59.1% FT 4.6 reb 1.9 ast  11.7 pts

The poor coaching and poor play of our guards sucked the life out of Bargs. All those losses broke team spirit. Before Bargs lost all his confidence and enthusiasm, he was doing OK. Woody didn't make sure to keep him a part of the action. Bargs is the kind of player that has to be involved. He'll drift if he's not getting touches. That's the beauty of the Triangle, the ball gets to touch everyones hands and they are all active and engaged on every play.

dude you need to chill out with that crap and relax. You want to hang your hat on a 13 game stretch like that's something to hold on to even though he still had a negative +/-. What about December and January when he was "getting minutes"? I guess those don't count. He started the season sucking then had a good 13 games so the other 27 games just do not count.

He the definition of a negative player but I know to you he is awesome.

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

where do you come up with these things?

What the F were you watching at the start of the year when Bargs was in FACT the 2nd best player on the team. Don't piss on my posts if you're not gonna back up what you say with SOMETHING. I hate that ISH.

Bargs:  32.7 mpg 47.4% FG  37.0% 3pt 81.1% FT 5.8 reb 1.3 blks 16.4 pts
Felton: 35.1 mpg 36.6% FG  23.7% 3pt 85.7% FT 2.8 reb 5.8 ast  9.9  pts
JR:     31.5 mpg 32.8$ FG  28.6% 3pt 59.1% FT 4.6 reb 1.9 ast  11.7 pts

The poor coaching and poor play of our guards sucked the life out of Bargs. All those losses broke team spirit. Before Bargs lost all his confidence and enthusiasm, he was doing OK. Woody didn't make sure to keep him a part of the action. Bargs is the kind of player that has to be involved. He'll drift if he's not getting touches. That's the beauty of the Triangle, the ball gets to touch everyones hands and they are all active and engaged on every play.

dude you need to chill out with that crap and relax. You want to hang your hat on a 13 game stretch like that's something to hold on to even though he still had a negative +/-. What about December and January when he was "getting minutes"? I guess those don't count. He started the season sucking then had a good 13 games so the other 27 games just do not count.

He the definition of a negative player but I know to you he is awesome.

You just totally miss the point. He was playing well and the losing and crap from the rest of the team just messed him up. He can't excel with HORRID PG play and SG's that can't shoot. What exactly was he supposed to do with a coach that can't coach offense?? GTFO with your lame points. We get that it was a short time but the guys was playing well and it wasn't his fault that only Melo was playing well and everyone Bargs needed to play well SUCKED.

This is why Phil shipped Felton and Tyson out of here. Jose will be a much better PG as will Larkin off the bench. This team is going to be playing a system with constant ball and player movement, something we didn't see last year. That kind of offense should work well for Bargs.

When Tyson went down Bargs held the C spot down against top C's. It would've been nice if we had an offense that helped him get great looks. Too often his shots were happy accidents and not great offense.