Its as simple as that Im not looking at record through 4 games we are avg 85 pts. Weve had two weeks and now 2 weeks till the regular season we need miraculous change quick.
It's preseason
Meaning they are getting a look at every player on the roster to see which players should be in the rotation
We can start Amare & Barg if we want more offense
But what happens on the defensive end?
gunsnewing wrote:It's preseasonMeaning they are getting a look at every player on the roster to see which players should be in the rotation
I understand that--but I also have kept my eye on this league--teams have set rotations and are going well. Are we really starting Quincy Acy @ PF? The guy was a role player for a 25 win team.
BRIGGS wrote:Its as simple as that Im not looking at record through 4 games we are avg 85 pts. Weve had two weeks and now 2 weeks till the regular season we need miraculous change quick.
Experimentation takes precendence over immediate gratification. Fish is giving greater minutes to guys he needs answers about. Gelling like Magellan, and offensive cohesion, comes second.
This sounds like a bit of panic. The key signs that this is trending in the right direction is the ball is moving and we're getting a lot of assisted baskets. It's gonna take more time for guys to get in rhythm and get the timing down but the system is creating better looks when they execute and they are getting better. It's a process.
Tonight had some sweet stretches where we had not just ball rotation, but actual angular passing which is part of the attribute of triangulation.
In the past, it was great when guys whipped the ball around the perimeter and found an open corner three shot, but tonight we saw some real inside out ball whipping with bigs hitting cutters and the ball going inside, outside, inside, out and then an open shot.
I can see promise in tonight's good stretches. It was a step forward.
Also, though it was stated (Fish, Phil? I don't remember) they won't do much PnR, you still saw some real synergy between bigs and the backourt producing give and go manuevers.
It was not dependent on screens and setting picks as much as one player running past the player they passed to and circling back from the other side. Then that pivot player would pass it back and often step away and create another option to receive the ball. By the time the chasing defender catches up, there is often an open shot.
It is much more about motion off the ball and deception than blinding defenders with picks. The motion creates natural picks as defenders have to scramble to maintain coverage.
We've already seen more than we did with Woodson, so patience is in order.
P.S. I did not like the way Larkin just stands in the corner and watches when he gives up the ball. Kid still has a lot to learn. With his speed and youth he should be ready to move at all times.
Splat wrote:Tonight had some sweet stretches where we had not just ball rotation, but actual angular passing which is part of the attribute of triangulation.In the past, it was great when guys whipped the ball around the perimeter and found an open corner three shot, but tonight we saw some real inside out ball whipping with bigs hitting cutters and the ball going inside, outside, inside, out and then an open shot.
I can see promise in tonight's good stretches. It was a step forward.
Its balance. You can't have one player expected to make everyone better on the team. Unless they are the most dominant physical species in basketball history(Shaq & Lebron). Its why pass first PGs being the best player on there team rarely win championships. You need multiple players creating shots for others from the post and perimeter, making the game easier for everyone involved usually creating a more efficient offense for everyone.
newyorknewyork wrote:Splat wrote:Tonight had some sweet stretches where we had not just ball rotation, but actual angular passing which is part of the attribute of triangulation.In the past, it was great when guys whipped the ball around the perimeter and found an open corner three shot, but tonight we saw some real inside out ball whipping with bigs hitting cutters and the ball going inside, outside, inside, out and then an open shot.
I can see promise in tonight's good stretches. It was a step forward.
Its balance. You can't have one player expected to make everyone better on the team. Unless they are the most dominant physical species in basketball history(Shaq & Lebron). Its why pass first PGs being the best player on there team rarely win championships. You need multiple players creating shots for others from the post and perimeter, making the game easier for everyone involved usually creating a more efficient offense for everyone.
You're talking about what I've always wanted for this franchise, 2-way players. Otherwise, we get mired in these constant struggles to compensate for players who are kind of zeroes at one end of the court.
That doesn't mean you'll get a starting five that is equally facile on both ends of the court. I love dominant defensive centers who pass brilliantly for instance.
But, like you say, if you have a PG who is all about facilitation, you better have a companion guard who can light it up and another scoring stud on the frontline.
Anyway, in relation to other current posts, that is why I see a guy like Acy being a potential starter. They may contribute enough on both ends to add up positively. It is not like Oak was a great offensive player. He did his deeds and then stroked a few from 12 feet and got some putbacks. Same idea to some degree.
How this team balances out is what I see being assessed in pre-season and why I'm kind of engaged right now, because I finally feel like we may have a franchise with vision. That means some capacity to both assess current roster balance on O & D, but also the capacity to lay the groundwork for a team of many 2-way players being the norm in the future.
We had like 2 fast break points, thats crazy
This is so much better for our long term success. This is not a small thing as some media have been cracking jokes about the Triangle. They miss the point entirely. When have we ever seen our bigs making such beautiful passes??? It's not a fluke one off thing. These players are learning to make these plays on a consistent basis. It will be the norm rather than the exception.
This is the reality of what Phil intended to bring to the franchise. Months from now we can hope they're executing at a very high level.
BRIGGS wrote:gunsnewing wrote:It's preseasonMeaning they are getting a look at every player on the roster to see which players should be in the rotation
I understand that--but I also have kept my eye on this league--teams have set rotations and are going well. Are we really starting Quincy Acy @ PF? The guy was a role player for a 25 win team.
I agree about Acy. I think Smith starting at power forward would be a great fit. Shump seems to be improving but I don't think you can have a line up with both Acy and Shump to start games. That line up just doesn't score enough. The Knicks should have gone way up on Philly early on.
knicks1248 wrote:We had like 2 fast break points, thats crazy
I'm assuming uou watched the game. Though we didn't push it much, we got some great uncontested conversions in the paint due to our passing game. There were several awesome give and go sequences with our bigs hitting our guards for easy layups.
That's ultimately more valuable than pace alone since it is skill vs. speed. You can add speed later.
When you add in fast break opps from increased defensive pressure, you can break open games.
We didn't convert much, but we had more breaks than the stat line indicates.
CrushAlot wrote:BRIGGS wrote:gunsnewing wrote:It's preseasonMeaning they are getting a look at every player on the roster to see which players should be in the rotation
I understand that--but I also have kept my eye on this league--teams have set rotations and are going well. Are we really starting Quincy Acy @ PF? The guy was a role player for a 25 win team.
I agree about Acy. I think Smith starting at power forward would be a great fit. Shump seems to be improving but I don't think you can have a line up with both Acy and Shump to start games. That line up just doesn't score enough. The Knicks should have gone way up on Philly early on.
Get your head out of the gutter. This is a new and improved Shumpert. Accept it and enjoy the ride
the starters are playing half their normal minutes which equates to half their normal production. no biggie you'll see a big jump in ppg during these next 3 for sure.
knickknack wrote:the starters are playing half their normal minutes which equates to half their normal production. no biggie you'll see a big jump in ppg during these next 3 for sure.
Yup! There's still s bit of panic in some of the fan base. This is still preseason and Fish is trying to get a good look at different players. Also this is the vanilla stuff too. Fish isn't going to go all out in preseason games.
BRIGGS wrote:gunsnewing wrote:It's preseasonMeaning they are getting a look at every player on the roster to see which players should be in the rotation
I understand that--but I also have kept my eye on this league--teams have set rotations and are going well. Are we really starting Quincy Acy @ PF? The guy was a role player for a 25 win team.
Not sure where you are coming from with the Acy reference.
I think he's played very well the past few games and is a good fit with Shumpert & Dally as defensive minded players in the starting line-up.
Last night the Knicks ended the 1st quarter up 23-11 (and scored their most points in Q1 with Acy starting). He played 27 minutes and had 6 boards - what is the issue with that. You are understating the impact a solid role player can have in terms of making a group function well together.
History is littered with very good teams that have started non-scoring defensive minded - high energy PFs.
Acy is doing fine in my book - he isn't perfect but with that starting unit we basically have Melo doing most of the scoring and Calderon/Shump adding in where possible. We aren't going to win any games by out-scoring teams in the 1st quarter --- need to produce the whole game and balance/role players are part of the equation.
So how do we fix it if we lack scoring so badly?
Change the offense back to hero ball?
EnySpree wrote:So how do we fix it if we lack scoring so badly?Change the offense back to hero ball?
Not sure I understand the concern. The scoring should increase as we play our core rotation players normal minutes. So far Fish has been doing a lot of experimenting and that should go away by the time we get to the regular season.
we were outscored like 5 to 27 in fast break points against philly last night yet we forced just as many turnovers as they did. what that number tells me is the knicks are purposely killing fast breaks in order to set up the offense almost every time. this indicates there's more of an emphasis on running the offense properly right now then actually scoring points, that'll change once the season starts and will benefit us more long term then preseason scoring averages will because every player in the rotation is being given a chance to get a handle on the triangle right now. we're starting to see even the ones that are having a harder time with it start to show ome progress such as STAT in the game last night. once again no reason to panic.
