Knicks · Yes or No. Is It Time To Cut Bait On Andrea Bargnani? (page 2)

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:
It's very disappointing but it's also still early and there's no reason to push things. I'd say the same about anyone on this team at this point. Bargs looked good and so far only STAT and JR have looked way out of it. It's not a high pressure situation at this point. Bargs can be brought along slowly and it won't impact things negatively this year cuz of Phil stocking the roster with more talent. For those who poo poo'd the work Phil did it's clear he did a pretty good job of tweaking the roster and making it better IMO. With so much risk of injury it was important that Phil got as much help as he could on this bench.

I agree. The pickups made now largely negate the chaos of assembling a rotation. If Bargs is just a passionless sofa fart or if Amare can't add 1+1, we can deal with it now. Our frontline this season in no way depends upon either of them and that is a good thing. This is just another example of Phil transitioning the club into his image one step at a time.

+1 Million. But then i'm just a shill for the Knicks so nothing I say is valid...

I always thought you were Alan Hahn to be honest.

Splat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:
A bunch of hot air, he should have taken the Masai

Approach and found a creative way to dump Bargnani

Especially since he forecast the financial flexibility

We'd have from what was on the horizon of the new NBA TV deal

Easier said than done, don't you think? Why would any team take either Bargs or Stat off our hands? How would you incentivize such a deal now?

Masai traded

Bargnani-Rudy Gay-John Salmons

First yr on the job and got back value

That's what good execs do

F500ONE wrote:

Splat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:
A bunch of hot air, he should have taken the Masai

Approach and found a creative way to dump Bargnani

Especially since he forecast the financial flexibility

We'd have from what was on the horizon of the new NBA TV deal

Easier said than done, don't you think? Why would any team take either Bargs or Stat off our hands? How would you incentivize such a deal now?

Masai traded

Bargnani-Rudy Gay-John Salmons

First yr on the job and got back value

That's what good execs do

So you'd be happy to concede to another club's demand that we give up other valued players in order to dump Bargs or Stat?

You are basically say Phil is already failing as GM. Yet maybe Phil's outlook that this is a transitional year doesn't jive with yours, because in your scenario we'd surely have to surrender players who can help us after this year and/or be developed in order to orchestrate the dump you value so much.

You make it all sound so black and white when I hardly think it is.

I would not give up anything to dump those two in a non-Win Now year. We can afford to let them expire unless someone gave us an offer we couldn't refuse.

But who is going to give us that offer?

No deal is sometimes the best deal. I'm not for taking on other BS players and their piecemeal contracts particularly if they go past this year and I don't see any club giving us players we need in order to help liberate us of Stat or Bargs. You make it sound so easy. It is not.

Splat wrote:So you'd be happy to concede to another club's demand that we give up other valued players in order to dump Bargs or Stat?

I'd be willing to give up an asset towards the end

Of our expectations of competitive contention

So is it realistic to say we expect to be

Competing in Phil's 3rd-4th yr titlewise

Id' say so, so I'd offer of a 2018 1st

If it brought back someone like

A Mike Scott type talent at best

Because the 1st would be of no factor putting us over the top

Splat wrote:You are basically say Phil is already failing as GM.

He is to a small degree

One of Smith-Amar'e-Bargnani

Should not be on this team

Splat wrote:Yet maybe Phil's outlook that this is a transitional year doesn't jive with yours, because in your scenario we'd surely have to surrender players who can help us after this year and/or be developed in order to orchestrate the dump you value so much.

You make it all sound so black and white when I hardly think it is.

I would not give up anything to dump those two in a non-Win Now year. We can afford to let them expire unless someone gave us an offer we couldn't refuse.

But who is going to give us that offer?

No deal is sometimes the best deal. I'm not for taking on other BS players and their piecemeal contracts particularly if they go past this year and I don't see any club giving us players we need in order to help liberate us of Stat or Bargs. You make it sound so easy. It is not.

Did Phil not do this with Tyson and Felton

By taking back Calderon who's contract goes past 2015?

Why couldn't he manage to dump one of the above

Who have essentially zero future here

Citing Dallas trade? We were lucky Tyson was wanted back by Cuban. Nobody wants the other ones. Poor analogy. Implying Phil could have pulled the trigger on dumping these two swollen contracts for players nobody needs as a comparable event to the Dallas trade is illogical IMO.

Lumping in JR with Bargs & Amare makes no sense to me. JR has another year. He can still be harnessed and may be needed far more than the other two. Plus, he can be traded in the next two seasons if he is playing well and behaved, particularly in his last year when a contender needs a sixth man for $6M. Comparing him as a trading asset to Bargs and Amare does not compute at all.

You're willing to give up assets we can use. I am not. Not worth going into that further.

You're drawing very thinly supported assertions to infer Phil is dropping the ball. I would do exactly what he is doing and let those two mooks expire and get what you can out of them if possible this year, but give up nothing and take on no more baggage to dump them. This year is ideal for that.

Splat wrote:F5, your logic on all of your points is opposite of mine

Citing Dallas trade? We were lucky Tyson was wanted back by Cuban. Nobody wants the other ones. Poor analogy. Implying Phil could have pulled the trigger on dumping these two swollen contracts for players nobody needs as a comparable event to the Dallas trade is illogical IMO.

Lumping in JR with Bargs & Amare makes no sense to me. JR has another year. He can still be harnessed and may be needed far more than the other two. Plus, he can be traded in the next two seasons if he is playing well and behaved, particularly in his last year when a contender needs a sixth man for $6M. Comparing him as a trading asset to Bargs and Amare does not compute at all.

You're willing to give up assets we can use. I am not. Not worth going into that further.

You're drawing very thinly supported assertions to infer Phil is dropping the ball. I would do exactly what he is doing and let those two mooks expire and get what you can out of them if possible this year, but give up nothing and take on no more baggage to dump them. This year is ideal for that.

A 2018 1st is of no relevance to our future success

Zero whatsoever, keep telling yourself it would be

There's also not enough time[playing wise nor life of contract]

To call ourselves duping teams

Into an increased value of any of these Bums

Lose a battle but win the war

F500ONE wrote:

Splat wrote:F5, your logic on all of your points is opposite of mine

Citing Dallas trade? We were lucky Tyson was wanted back by Cuban. Nobody wants the other ones. Poor analogy. Implying Phil could have pulled the trigger on dumping these two swollen contracts for players nobody needs as a comparable event to the Dallas trade is illogical IMO.

Lumping in JR with Bargs & Amare makes no sense to me. JR has another year. He can still be harnessed and may be needed far more than the other two. Plus, he can be traded in the next two seasons if he is playing well and behaved, particularly in his last year when a contender needs a sixth man for $6M. Comparing him as a trading asset to Bargs and Amare does not compute at all.

You're willing to give up assets we can use. I am not. Not worth going into that further.

You're drawing very thinly supported assertions to infer Phil is dropping the ball. I would do exactly what he is doing and let those two mooks expire and get what you can out of them if possible this year, but give up nothing and take on no more baggage to dump them. This year is ideal for that.

A 2018 1st is of no relevance to our future success

Zero whatsoever, keep telling yourself it would be

That's your sole rebuttal?

OK, so Phil offers that pick and voila your objective will be achieved. If you say so.

And, no, I'd not give up a first rounder. Time marches on quickly and in 2018 you'll want that pick. That's short sighted to me. You only give up first rounders when you get a comparable talent ready to contribute immediately, not dump expirings in a transitional year.

Splat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Splat wrote:F5, your logic on all of your points is opposite of mine

Citing Dallas trade? We were lucky Tyson was wanted back by Cuban. Nobody wants the other ones. Poor analogy. Implying Phil could have pulled the trigger on dumping these two swollen contracts for players nobody needs as a comparable event to the Dallas trade is illogical IMO.

Lumping in JR with Bargs & Amare makes no sense to me. JR has another year. He can still be harnessed and may be needed far more than the other two. Plus, he can be traded in the next two seasons if he is playing well and behaved, particularly in his last year when a contender needs a sixth man for $6M. Comparing him as a trading asset to Bargs and Amare does not compute at all.

You're willing to give up assets we can use. I am not. Not worth going into that further.

You're drawing very thinly supported assertions to infer Phil is dropping the ball. I would do exactly what he is doing and let those two mooks expire and get what you can out of them if possible this year, but give up nothing and take on no more baggage to dump them. This year is ideal for that.

A 2018 1st is of no relevance to our future success

Zero whatsoever, keep telling yourself it would be

That's your sole rebuttal?

OK, so Phil offers that pick and voila your objective will be achieved. If you say so.

And, no, I'd not give up a first rounder. Time marches on quickly and in 2018 you'll want that pick. That's short sighted to me. You only give up first rounders when you get a comparable talent ready to contribute immediately, not dump expirings in a transitional year.

I said get back a Mike Scott

Type of talent or did you not see that

We're supposed to be competing in 2018

Not relying on a 2018 1st to be a huge difference maker

Where would that pick fall bottom 20

If we're good right, or are you implying there's a chance

We'll suck that year

knickscity wrote:Acy might have been Phil's better deal and it didnt take a valued player at all. If Dallas makes a run anywhere close to a title with Tyson...Phil shyt the bed. Dallas wanted Tyson back badly....I'll leave it there.

How does Dallas' performance cause a re-evaluation of the trade? Either it was good for us or it was not.

We had offers for Tyson mid-season last year and should have pulled the trigger. We were lucky Dallas was still around to deal with.

The reality is quite simple. Tyson became a serious underachiever as time went on here. If he re-energizes with Dallas and does well here, that doesn't change the fact he became a poor teammate here and he needed to be moved.

What was good for Dallas was good for us. We extracted the thorn called Felton from our paw in the process and got three players who are part of our rotation now. That's good no matter how well Tyson does.

Shyt the bed? Come on

markvmc wrote:The time to cut bait on this guy was before we traded for him.

True but when we traded for him

The justification then by Splat like fans

We were in WIN NOW MODE

Oversighting the 2016 pick would be huge because

It would have been closer to the forefront of a rebuild

Not to mention we gave up 2 second rounders

On top of getting rid of Novak[who had to be dumped for 2015 we were told]

At all cost although TV deals and contract

Give backs were on the horizon

A 2018 pick is at the back end of success

It's valuable now, not a presidential term from now

F500ONE wrote:

markvmc wrote:The time to cut bait on this guy was before we traded for him.

True but when we traded for him

The justification then by Splat like fans

We were in WIN NOW MODE

Oversighting the 2016 pick would be huge because

It would have been closer to the forefront of a rebuild

Not to mention we gave up 2 second rounders

On top of getting rid of Novak[who had to be dumped for 2015]

At all cost although TV deals and contract

Give backs were on the horizon

A 2018 pick is at the back end of success

It's valuable now, not a presidential term from now

Excuse me, but WTF did you just write about me?

I just started posting here.

Nothing I've said is about win now. Everything I've said conceded the opposite.

And yet you have the gall to lump me with some vague entity of other fans to disparage a conversation being held here.

You've got some nerve

Splat wrote:

knickscity wrote:Acy might have been Phil's better deal and it didnt take a valued player at all. If Dallas makes a run anywhere close to a title with Tyson...Phil shyt the bed. Dallas wanted Tyson back badly....I'll leave it there.

How does Dallas' performance cause a re-evaluation of the trade? Either it was good for us or it was not.

We had offers for Tyson mid-season last year and should have pulled the trigger. We were lucky Dallas was still around to deal with.

The reality is quite simple. Tyson became a serious underachiever as time went on here. If he re-energizes with Dallas and does well here, that doesn't change the fact he became a poor teammate here and he needed to be moved.

What was good for Dallas was good for us. We extracted the thorn called Felton from our paw in the process and got three players who are part of our rotation now. That's good no matter how well Tyson does.

Shyt the bed? Come on

Phil was in tow mid season....it's obvious he blocked the trade for Lowry. The reality is, this team didnt fit a player like Tyson. tyson was a piece to the puzzle, when the team expected him to be the puzzle and the box it came in. Miraculously he won DPOY in that role and became a first time all-star....so no he didnt underperform...he exceeeded.

Now if we're talking about playoffs.....JR sucked ass, so did Melo and his 40% shooting and unrelenting near record attempt heaves at the basket claiming his shoulder was hurt at the same time.

Sorry though, if Dallas wins anything close to atitle while we're still searching for a first round flameout....that deal was lost.

Splat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

markvmc wrote:The time to cut bait on this guy was before we traded for him.

True but when we traded for him

The justification then by Splat like fans

We were in WIN NOW MODE

Oversighting the 2016 pick would be huge because

It would have been closer to the forefront of a rebuild

Not to mention we gave up 2 second rounders

On top of getting rid of Novak[who had to be dumped for 2015]

At all cost although TV deals and contract

Give backs were on the horizon

A 2018 pick is at the back end of success

It's valuable now, not a presidential term from now

Excuse me, but WTF did you just write about me?

I just started posting here.

Nothing I've said is about win now. Everything I've said conceded the opposite.

And yet you have the gall to lump me with some vague entity of other fans to disparage a conversation being held here.

You've got some nerve

Okay you were lumped in mashed potatoes, my apologies

Will we be in WIN NOW MODE 2016-2017-2018

Which yr under Phil's tenure

Handing out multi-yr deals to the likes

Ben Gordon and Channing Frye

Yet we can't give them 1 yr of

Bargnani and a future 1st

For someone like Kyle O'Quinn

It's impossible for Phil to get this done?

Why is Orlando signing those type of players

Knowing their time is not now to compete

They needed some vets and had a need to meet salary cap minimums

The same team that traded Aaron Afflalo for

The great Evan Fournier, Phil COME ON MAN!!!

knickscity wrote:

Splat wrote:

knickscity wrote:Acy might have been Phil's better deal and it didnt take a valued player at all. If Dallas makes a run anywhere close to a title with Tyson...Phil shyt the bed. Dallas wanted Tyson back badly....I'll leave it there.

How does Dallas' performance cause a re-evaluation of the trade? Either it was good for us or it was not.

We had offers for Tyson mid-season last year and should have pulled the trigger. We were lucky Dallas was still around to deal with.

The reality is quite simple. Tyson became a serious underachiever as time went on here. If he re-energizes with Dallas and does well here, that doesn't change the fact he became a poor teammate here and he needed to be moved.

What was good for Dallas was good for us. We extracted the thorn called Felton from our paw in the process and got three players who are part of our rotation now. That's good no matter how well Tyson does.

Shyt the bed? Come on

Phil was in tow mid season....it's obvious he blocked the trade for Lowry. The reality is, this team didnt fit a player like Tyson. tyson was a piece to the puzzle, when the team expected him to be the puzzle and the box it came in. Miraculously he won DPOY in that role and became a first time all-star....so no he didnt underperform...he exceeeded.

Now if we're talking about playoffs.....JR sucked ass, so did Melo and his 40% shooting and unrelenting near record attempt heaves at the basket claiming his shoulder was hurt at the same time.

Sorry though, if Dallas wins anything close to atitle while we're still searching for a first round flameout....that deal was lost.

I thought Tyson was a jerk to be honest

I can understand Phil's reasoning for wanting to dump him

But don't sell this crap about Tyson not being a fit

And then sell Bargnani as a triangle surprise, naaaaahhhh Phil sorry won't cut it

F500ONE wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Splat wrote:

knickscity wrote:Acy might have been Phil's better deal and it didnt take a valued player at all. If Dallas makes a run anywhere close to a title with Tyson...Phil shyt the bed. Dallas wanted Tyson back badly....I'll leave it there.

How does Dallas' performance cause a re-evaluation of the trade? Either it was good for us or it was not.

We had offers for Tyson mid-season last year and should have pulled the trigger. We were lucky Dallas was still around to deal with.

The reality is quite simple. Tyson became a serious underachiever as time went on here. If he re-energizes with Dallas and does well here, that doesn't change the fact he became a poor teammate here and he needed to be moved.

What was good for Dallas was good for us. We extracted the thorn called Felton from our paw in the process and got three players who are part of our rotation now. That's good no matter how well Tyson does.

Shyt the bed? Come on

Phil was in tow mid season....it's obvious he blocked the trade for Lowry. The reality is, this team didnt fit a player like Tyson. tyson was a piece to the puzzle, when the team expected him to be the puzzle and the box it came in. Miraculously he won DPOY in that role and became a first time all-star....so no he didnt underperform...he exceeeded.

Now if we're talking about playoffs.....JR sucked ass, so did Melo and his 40% shooting and unrelenting near record attempt heaves at the basket claiming his shoulder was hurt at the same time.

Sorry though, if Dallas wins anything close to atitle while we're still searching for a first round flameout....that deal was lost.

I thought Tyson was a jerk to be honest

I can understand Phil's reasoning for wanting to dump him

But don't sell this crap about Tyson not being a fit

And then sell Bargnani as a triangle surprise, naaaaahhhh Phil sorry won't cut it

I still will say imo Phil has done the best he could...these cats on this team are not that good.