I was just reading up on Traded Player Exceptions and I came across a rule that I wasn't really clear on. It seems that if we don't use the Exceptions before the Free Agents are signed we'd have to renounce them in order to have the full Cap Space.
If a team is below the cap, then its Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level (either the Taxpayer or Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level, whichever applies to the team) and/or trade exceptions are added to their team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap1. This is to prevent a loophole, in a manner similar to free agent amounts (see question number 39). A team can't act like it's under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or trade exceptions. Consequently, the exceptions are added to their team salary (putting the team over the cap) if the team is under the cap and adding the exceptions puts them over the cap. If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary. There would be no point in doing so, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.So being under the cap does not necessarily mean a team has room to sign free agents. For example, assume the cap is $58 million, and a team has $51.5 million committed to salaries. They also have a Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a trade exception for $5.5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions also count toward their team salary, increasing their total to $62 million, or $4 million over the cap. So the team actually has no cap room to sign free agents, and instead must use its exceptions to sign players.
Teams have the option to renounce their exceptions in order to reclaim their cap room. So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $51.5 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which then can be used to sign free agent(s).
So it seems to me that Phil will have to find a use for the Trade Exceptions or at least part of the trade exceptions which would lower the cap hit by the remaining balance of the trade exception amount. I think the best option is to use them in one of the following ways:
This exception is particularly useful when teams trade draft picks directly for a player; since draft picks have no salary value, often the only way to get salaries to match is to use a trade exception, which allows trades to be made despite unbalanced salaries. It is also useful to compensate teams for losing free agents, as they can do a sign and trade of that free agent to acquire a trade exception that can be used later. Note this exception is for single player trades only, though additional cash and draft picks can be part of the trade.
I think Phil is trying to find a way to make a deal with OKC for Reggie Jackson using one of his Trade Exceptions to take back Reggie and perhaps another player. I think he wants to make a deal with another team using his other Trade Exception to get a pick that he'd send to OKC as part of the Reggie Jackson trade. It's tricky because of the Cap and him not wanting to take back salary that can mess up our cap room this summer. I could be wrong about the use of the Exceptions and I welcome any thoughts on those who understand all of this on a high level.
'flexibility'
we have 2 open roster spots and trade exceptions. We could play 3rd team facilitator in a trade and pick up picks/assets. In the mean time, there will likely be a bunch of 10 day contracts. Phil is playing chess. There are no guarantees, but he is making smart moves. Unfortunately the impulsive fan might not be very happy right now, but I think we are on the right track
Are we sure Jackson is enamored with Jackson? The guy can't shoot.
Mentioned this in another thread
Point number 14 on the NBA CBA main page link
Discussed what's included in team salary and how they factor
the real value would be to help a tax team get out from that and get a pick back. Like helping Tor out by taking Landry Fields and a #1 back for a #2 or something. Crappy example but you get the idea. Its pure economics but many owners dont want to pay.
H1AND1 wrote:Are we sure Jackson is enamored with Jackson? The guy can't shoot.
He's not a deep threat but he's really effective getting to the basket. He scores well on the move and breaks down the defense, which is something we don't have.
Style of play: Listed at different positions, Harden and Jackson operate in very similar ways. Harden’s a bit smoother, a bit more skilled with the ball and a more accomplished shooter. But both are premier penetrators, adept passers and elite finishers around the rim. They have also both been criticized for occasionally overdribbling and lapses in defensive energy.Market value: Reggie Jackson is a great player. But he’s not a max contract star. Harden’s deal with Houston will give him a little more than $65 million over the next four seasons, averaging about $16.2 million per year. Aided by the rising salary cap and his strong play, Jackson’s value is growing. But his per-year ceiling is expected to be around $13 or $14 million. Expensive for a sixth man, but not as pricy as Harden.
nixluva wrote:H1AND1 wrote:Are we sure Jackson is enamored with Jackson? The guy can't shoot.
He's not a deep threat but he's really effective getting to the basket. He scores well on the move and breaks down the defense, which is something we don't have.
Style of play: Listed at different positions, Harden and Jackson operate in very similar ways. Harden’s a bit smoother, a bit more skilled with the ball and a more accomplished shooter. But both are premier penetrators, adept passers and elite finishers around the rim. They have also both been criticized for occasionally overdribbling and lapses in defensive energy.Market value: Reggie Jackson is a great player. But he’s not a max contract star. Harden’s deal with Houston will give him a little more than $65 million over the next four seasons, averaging about $16.2 million per year. Aided by the rising salary cap and his strong play, Jackson’s value is growing. But his per-year ceiling is expected to be around $13 or $14 million. Expensive for a sixth man, but not as pricy as Harden.
so I guess he is more like a Posession Guard or a Slot Guard
One big thing: HE PLAYS DEFENSE
I was trying to assess what the Knicks have in terms of assets and obviously it's very few. I couldn't remember just how many Trade Exceptions we had but I thought it would be interesting to let everyone know just what we have.
Raymond Felton Trade Exception = $3,637,073 - Expires June 25, 2015
Travis Outlaw Trade Exception = $1,863,840 - Expires Oct 27, 2015
Iman Shumpert Trade Exception = $2,616,975 - Expires Jan 5, 2016
JR Smith Trade Exception = $5,982,373 - Expires Jan 5, 2016
It's not clear just how Phil could use these Exceptions. He may just renounce some of them for the purposes of the cap, but it may also make sense to use them for a player that may be useful or that may help a team cap wise and thus maybe he could ask for a pick. The pick may be worth more than the actual cap space this summer if we aren't going after the really expensive Free Agents.
does phil know these rules?
anrst wrote:does phil know these rules?
He probably does. If we know it seems a bit unbelievable to think he wouldn't know. When making these deals they have cap people that explain all the details of the deal and how it works, plus what assets you get. The Exceptions were mentioned prominently when the deal was done.
fishmike wrote:the real value would be to help a tax team get out from that and get a pick back. Like helping Tor out by taking Landry Fields and a #1 back for a #2 or something. Crappy example but you get the idea. Its pure economics but many owners dont want to pay.
I didnt think about it like that. Lots of penny pinching owners out there.
Jmpasq wrote:fishmike wrote:the real value would be to help a tax team get out from that and get a pick back. Like helping Tor out by taking Landry Fields and a #1 back for a #2 or something. Crappy example but you get the idea. Its pure economics but many owners dont want to pay.
I didnt think about it like that. Lots of penny pinching owners out there.
I'm HOPING that Phil sees the value in Picks over just cap space. The cap space is only really any good if you can use it on a good player. Just having it doesn't make you better. Picks are at the very least REAL assets that can be used to draft more talent or use in trades to bring in more talent. We're WOEFULLY behind in the Draft Pick department. Other teams have been stockpiling as we've given them away so I'm hoping Phil can bring some back by using the Trade Exceptions.
fishmike wrote:the real value would be to help a tax team get out from that and get a pick back. Like helping Tor out by taking Landry Fields and a #1 back for a #2 or something. Crappy example but you get the idea. Its pure economics but many owners dont want to pay.
The teams on the cusp of the luxury tax (should be around $79mil) are:
Clips ($84mil) but unlikely to offload salary as they have no fat to trim
Cavs ($82mil) again unlikely
Craptors $81mil
OKC $80mil- may change if they trade for Lopez.
Everyone else is under. So I'd say only the Craptors and OKC are realistic. I think OKC are the most likely, but like you said, the Craptors have a couple of expirings who they don't use and take up a big chunk of change.
fishmike wrote:the real value would be to help a tax team get out from that and get a pick back. Like helping Tor out by taking Landry Fields and a #1 back for a #2 or something. Crappy example but you get the idea. Its pure economics but many owners dont want to pay.
Do we have any of our own 2nd round picks? I'm trying to follow the info in the link below.
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/f...I'm not sure we have any 2nd rounders other than Cleveland's 2019.
Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:the real value would be to help a tax team get out from that and get a pick back. Like helping Tor out by taking Landry Fields and a #1 back for a #2 or something. Crappy example but you get the idea. Its pure economics but many owners dont want to pay.
Do we have any of our own 2nd round picks? I'm trying to follow the info in the link below.
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/f...
I'm not sure we have any 2nd rounders other than Cleveland's 2019.
Probably not- we went through a phase with Grunnie, where it looked like we were restocking on 2nd rounders, but then he gave them all away for Camby and Felton. Think Phil bizarrely gave one or two away as well in getting rid of Travis Outlaw.
smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:the real value would be to help a tax team get out from that and get a pick back. Like helping Tor out by taking Landry Fields and a #1 back for a #2 or something. Crappy example but you get the idea. Its pure economics but many owners dont want to pay.
Do we have any of our own 2nd round picks? I'm trying to follow the info in the link below.
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/f...
I'm not sure we have any 2nd rounders other than Cleveland's 2019.
Probably not- we went through a phase with Grunnie, where it looked like we were restocking on 2nd rounders, but then he gave them all away for Camby and Felton. Think Phil bizarrely gave one or two away as well in getting rid of Travis Outlaw.
We have two 2nd rounders. The breakdown looks like this:
2015 - No 2nd round pick; traded to Houston for Marcus Camby
2016 - No 2nd round pick; Denver has the option to swap from the Melo trade and we traded it completely to Toronto for Bargnani
2017 - No 2nd round pick; traded to Portland for Felton and then somehow made its way to Houston
2018 - Philly has the right to swap 2nd round picks so, as of right now, we have one this year
2019 - We traded our 2nd round pick to Philly but we're getting a 2nd round pick from Cleveland
After 2019 we have all of our 2nd round picks.
Knicks have given away all their 2nd Rd. Picks and 2019 is the 1st year that they start having 2nd rd picks again. I'm almost positive that Phil is gonna be looking for opportunities to replenish the Draft picks they've sent away. It's just logical to get back those lost assets. Don't know if he'll be successful, but I have to think he's going to be trying hard.
nixluva wrote:Knicks have given away all their 2nd Rd. Picks and 2019 is the 1st year that they start having 2nd rd picks again. I'm almost positive that Phil is gonna be looking for opportunities to replenish the Draft picks they've sent away. It's just logical to get back those lost assets. Don't know if he'll be successful, but I have to think he's going to be trying hard.
It is possible to buy them for cash. For some reason 2 seasons ago their value got over inflated. Last offseason their value seemed to go back to normal.
smackeddog wrote:nixluva wrote:Knicks have given away all their 2nd Rd. Picks and 2019 is the 1st year that they start having 2nd rd picks again. I'm almost positive that Phil is gonna be looking for opportunities to replenish the Draft picks they've sent away. It's just logical to get back those lost assets. Don't know if he'll be successful, but I have to think he's going to be trying hard.
It is possible to buy them for cash. For some reason 2 seasons ago their value got over inflated. Last offseason their value seemed to go back to normal.
Yes he can buy a Pick. Some of us forget that Phil traded for two 2nd rd. Picks which led to Early and Thanasis and then bought another pick for the French kid Labeyrie. Used Ellington to snag Acy. Then he picked up Galloway and Wear, so it's not like Phil has been ignoring young prospects.
VCoug wrote:smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:the real value would be to help a tax team get out from that and get a pick back. Like helping Tor out by taking Landry Fields and a #1 back for a #2 or something. Crappy example but you get the idea. Its pure economics but many owners dont want to pay.
Do we have any of our own 2nd round picks? I'm trying to follow the info in the link below.
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/f...
I'm not sure we have any 2nd rounders other than Cleveland's 2019.
Probably not- we went through a phase with Grunnie, where it looked like we were restocking on 2nd rounders, but then he gave them all away for Camby and Felton. Think Phil bizarrely gave one or two away as well in getting rid of Travis Outlaw.
We have two 2nd rounders. The breakdown looks like this:
2015 - No 2nd round pick; traded to Houston for Marcus Camby
2016 - No 2nd round pick; Denver has the option to swap from the Melo trade and we traded it completely to Toronto for Bargnani
2017 - No 2nd round pick; traded to Portland for Felton and then somehow made its way to Houston
2018 - Philly has the right to swap 2nd round picks so, as of right now, we have one this year
2019 - We traded our 2nd round pick to Philly but we're getting a 2nd round pick from Cleveland
After 2019 we have all of our 2nd round picks.
So we don't have any 2nd rounders from 2015 to 2017? That's a shame. This year our 2nd rounder would be like a late 1st rounder.
