Knicks · Russell Westbrook - New MVP Front Runner - Are They Better Off Without KD? (page 3)

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:lol ... Briggs says that he is the new franchise ...

I think that KD will want out. And, I have a hard time seeing Westbrook and KD successfully sharing the ball.

I think Kanter is the fall back if Durant wants out...But to me Durant is like LeBron..He is un-tradable..You just have to wait until he decides or says he wants to leave..But every team wants to have the pieces that OKC have..They have the ingredients for a Championship team..They are/were hit by the injury bug and the coach isn't all that good..

i'm curious-- who is a good coach in your opinion?

Phil Jackson would be the perfect coach for OKC..POP and Doc are good coaches..

And who is a good coach in your opinion?

doc rivers
popovich
budenholzer or any other popovich disciple
i like thibidoux but he makes his top guys play too many minutes
haven't seen kerr coach but i assume he must be doing something right

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:lol ... Briggs says that he is the new franchise ...

I think that KD will want out. And, I have a hard time seeing Westbrook and KD successfully sharing the ball.

I think Kanter is the fall back if Durant wants out...But to me Durant is like LeBron..He is un-tradable..You just have to wait until he decides or says he wants to leave..But every team wants to have the pieces that OKC have..They have the ingredients for a Championship team..They are/were hit by the injury bug and the coach isn't all that good..

i'm curious-- who is a good coach in your opinion?

Phil Jackson would be the perfect coach for OKC..POP and Doc are good coaches..

And who is a good coach in your opinion?

doc rivers
popovich
budenholzer or any other popovich disciple
i like thibidoux but he makes his top guys play too many minutes
haven't seen kerr coach but i assume he must be doing something right

Thibs runs his guys into the ground..They all get injured..Deng looks old..

Want to see Kerr in the playoffs..

I really like Jeff Hornacek too.

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TPercy wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TPercy wrote:One of them has to leave and they have to acquire someone to complement either one if they want to get back to being on championship caliber team.

they both need the ball in their hands too much to co-exist successfully. they both have high usage rates, but westbrook's is absurd this season. yes his assist rate is also high, but he is not playing a winning brand of team basketball. lastly, westbrook is below standard for TS%, a very unconvincing and underwhelming 54%. that alone in combination with a 38% usage rate spells doom for his team.

54% is ok wouldn't say unconvincing

Its definitely ok for a PG but when he comes back to earth, he still desperately needs to become a better 3 point shooter.

oh so westbrook is a point guard then?

scroll back and read my posts and you will get the context of my answer.

you first wrote that okc needed a floor leader and that there are chemistry issues with westbrook and durant; then you say westbrook is shooting an okay TS% "for a point guard." so i don't know what you think, really.

now, what i think is that westbrook is just a modern version of a scoring point guard, in a long line of scoring point guards, a "position" with a very checkered history. because a scoring point guard is someone who would rather score than orchestrate, it is basically a trickle-down economy, and really is not a recipe for success. beware the tweener. and as a corollary did you know that the thunder are ranked near the bottom of the league in assists per game? that's directly due to westbrook's absurd usage rate.

the only cure for such a player is a ravenous and opportunistic defense that creates turnovers and converts them into fastbreak points. right now the thunder are ranked outside the top ten in defense, and with durant's return the needle won't move much.

so if okc, for example, wants to win with westbrook doing what he does, they must emulate what the heat did when the heat won their most recent titles-- and of course there is no room for a kevin durant on such a team.

How are they better off without KD? They are barely .500 without him and that's with Westbrook playing out of this world.

Ridiculous...

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TPercy wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TPercy wrote:One of them has to leave and they have to acquire someone to complement either one if they want to get back to being on championship caliber team.

they both need the ball in their hands too much to co-exist successfully. they both have high usage rates, but westbrook's is absurd this season. yes his assist rate is also high, but he is not playing a winning brand of team basketball. lastly, westbrook is below standard for TS%, a very unconvincing and underwhelming 54%. that alone in combination with a 38% usage rate spells doom for his team.

54% is ok wouldn't say unconvincing

Its definitely ok for a PG but when he comes back to earth, he still desperately needs to become a better 3 point shooter.

oh so westbrook is a point guard then?

scroll back and read my posts and you will get the context of my answer.

you first wrote that okc needed a floor leader and that there are chemistry issues with westbrook and durant; then you say westbrook is shooting an okay TS% "for a point guard." so i don't know what you think, really.

now, what i think is that westbrook is just a modern version of a scoring point guard, in a long line of scoring point guards, a "position" with a very checkered history. because a scoring point guard is someone who would rather score than orchestrate, it is basically a trickle-down economy, and really is not a recipe for success. beware the tweener. and as a corollary did you know that the thunder are ranked near the bottom of the league in assists per game? that's directly due to westbrook's absurd usage rate.

the only cure for such a player is a ravenous and opportunistic defense that creates turnovers and converts them into fastbreak points. right now the thunder are ranked outside the top ten in defense, and with durant's return the needle won't move much.

so if okc, for example, wants to win with westbrook doing what he does, they must emulate what the heat did when the heat won their most recent titles-- and of course there is no room for a kevin durant on such a team.

Westbrook is shooting a good TS for a PG. That is only one part of the game. He needs assists too and he is obviously getting that too right now.

He is playing top flight hybrid ball which I don't believe that he will sustain, and I don't think that KD will appreciate his new game and his crazy USG%.

Reminds me a bit of MVP DRose which may have been fools gold.

OKC is now not even a playoff team.

stopstandthere wrote:OKC is now not even a playoff team.

Except they are- they have the 8th seed.

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TPercy wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TPercy wrote:One of them has to leave and they have to acquire someone to complement either one if they want to get back to being on championship caliber team.

they both need the ball in their hands too much to co-exist successfully. they both have high usage rates, but westbrook's is absurd this season. yes his assist rate is also high, but he is not playing a winning brand of team basketball. lastly, westbrook is below standard for TS%, a very unconvincing and underwhelming 54%. that alone in combination with a 38% usage rate spells doom for his team.

54% is ok wouldn't say unconvincing

Its definitely ok for a PG but when he comes back to earth, he still desperately needs to become a better 3 point shooter.

oh so westbrook is a point guard then?

scroll back and read my posts and you will get the context of my answer.

you first wrote that okc needed a floor leader and that there are chemistry issues with westbrook and durant; then you say westbrook is shooting an okay TS% "for a point guard." so i don't know what you think, really.

now, what i think is that westbrook is just a modern version of a scoring point guard, in a long line of scoring point guards, a "position" with a very checkered history. because a scoring point guard is someone who would rather score than orchestrate, it is basically a trickle-down economy, and really is not a recipe for success. beware the tweener. and as a corollary did you know that the thunder are ranked near the bottom of the league in assists per game? that's directly due to westbrook's absurd usage rate.

the only cure for such a player is a ravenous and opportunistic defense that creates turnovers and converts them into fastbreak points. right now the thunder are ranked outside the top ten in defense, and with durant's return the needle won't move much.

so if okc, for example, wants to win with westbrook doing what he does, they must emulate what the heat did when the heat won their most recent titles-- and of course there is no room for a kevin durant on such a team.

Westbrook is shooting a good TS for a PG. That is only one part of the game. He needs assists too and he is obviously getting that too right now.

He is playing top flight hybrid ball which I don't believe that he will sustain, and I don't think that KD will appreciate his new game and his crazy USG%.

Reminds me a bit of MVP DRose which may have been fools gold.

yes rose is a good, contemporary comparison. he's one of the reasons the mvp award is a jayvee award.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TPercy wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TPercy wrote:One of them has to leave and they have to acquire someone to complement either one if they want to get back to being on championship caliber team.

they both need the ball in their hands too much to co-exist successfully. they both have high usage rates, but westbrook's is absurd this season. yes his assist rate is also high, but he is not playing a winning brand of team basketball. lastly, westbrook is below standard for TS%, a very unconvincing and underwhelming 54%. that alone in combination with a 38% usage rate spells doom for his team.

54% is ok wouldn't say unconvincing

Its definitely ok for a PG but when he comes back to earth, he still desperately needs to become a better 3 point shooter.

oh so westbrook is a point guard then?

scroll back and read my posts and you will get the context of my answer.

you first wrote that okc needed a floor leader and that there are chemistry issues with westbrook and durant; then you say westbrook is shooting an okay TS% "for a point guard." so i don't know what you think, really.

now, what i think is that westbrook is just a modern version of a scoring point guard, in a long line of scoring point guards, a "position" with a very checkered history. because a scoring point guard is someone who would rather score than orchestrate, it is basically a trickle-down economy, and really is not a recipe for success. beware the tweener. and as a corollary did you know that the thunder are ranked near the bottom of the league in assists per game? that's directly due to westbrook's absurd usage rate.

the only cure for such a player is a ravenous and opportunistic defense that creates turnovers and converts them into fastbreak points. right now the thunder are ranked outside the top ten in defense, and with durant's return the needle won't move much.

so if okc, for example, wants to win with westbrook doing what he does, they must emulate what the heat did when the heat won their most recent titles-- and of course there is no room for a kevin durant on such a team.

Westbrook is shooting a good TS for a PG. That is only one part of the game. He needs assists too and he is obviously getting that too right now.

He is playing top flight hybrid ball which I don't believe that he will sustain, and I don't think that KD will appreciate his new game and his crazy USG%.

Reminds me a bit of MVP DRose which may have been fools gold.

yes rose is a good, contemporary comparison. he's one of the reasons the mvp award is a jayvee award.

Or maybe the measurement you use doesn't tell the true story..

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TPercy wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TPercy wrote:One of them has to leave and they have to acquire someone to complement either one if they want to get back to being on championship caliber team.

they both need the ball in their hands too much to co-exist successfully. they both have high usage rates, but westbrook's is absurd this season. yes his assist rate is also high, but he is not playing a winning brand of team basketball. lastly, westbrook is below standard for TS%, a very unconvincing and underwhelming 54%. that alone in combination with a 38% usage rate spells doom for his team.

54% is ok wouldn't say unconvincing

Its definitely ok for a PG but when he comes back to earth, he still desperately needs to become a better 3 point shooter.

oh so westbrook is a point guard then?

scroll back and read my posts and you will get the context of my answer.

you first wrote that okc needed a floor leader and that there are chemistry issues with westbrook and durant; then you say westbrook is shooting an okay TS% "for a point guard." so i don't know what you think, really.

now, what i think is that westbrook is just a modern version of a scoring point guard, in a long line of scoring point guards, a "position" with a very checkered history. because a scoring point guard is someone who would rather score than orchestrate, it is basically a trickle-down economy, and really is not a recipe for success. beware the tweener. and as a corollary did you know that the thunder are ranked near the bottom of the league in assists per game? that's directly due to westbrook's absurd usage rate.

the only cure for such a player is a ravenous and opportunistic defense that creates turnovers and converts them into fastbreak points. right now the thunder are ranked outside the top ten in defense, and with durant's return the needle won't move much.

so if okc, for example, wants to win with westbrook doing what he does, they must emulate what the heat did when the heat won their most recent titles-- and of course there is no room for a kevin durant on such a team.

Westbrook is shooting a good TS for a PG. That is only one part of the game. He needs assists too and he is obviously getting that too right now.

He is playing top flight hybrid ball which I don't believe that he will sustain, and I don't think that KD will appreciate his new game and his crazy USG%.

Reminds me a bit of MVP DRose which may have been fools gold.

yes rose is a good, contemporary comparison. he's one of the reasons the mvp award is a jayvee award.

Or maybe the measurement you use doesn't tell the true story..

why be cryptic? explain yourself. what is the true story?

You can't win MVP by putting up bizarre numbers on an 8th seed.

It's surely impressive. It's just not that valuable.

TripleThreat wrote:

holfresh wrote:Why would you want to trade Durant when you are a Champioship contender with him??..You are not a contender without him..

I don't think trading Durant is out of the question, I do think it would require a lot of things to fall into place in a certain way, and in a certain order.

1) I think Durant needs to openly ask his front office for a trade. Make it clear he's not going to resign with them. And make it clear he won't sign an extension with any team that gets gutted. Refusing to sign and extension and becoming only a rental would pretty much negate any suitor he didn't want.

2) Durant has to get healthy first, at least in the short term, before he would get moved. Too complicated to trade a guy while injured.

3) For OKC ownership to OK something like this ( this kind of trade generally operates at the ownership level) the return needs to be a marketable player in his own right, to protect the value of the franchise and to ease the split fanbase. ( Splitting the fanbase would be as easy as just leaking to the press that there are fears Durant will have chronic long term issues with that foot, although Westbrook's injury history isn't spotless either)

In the West, Durant for some package involving Blake Griffin might actually work. The Clippers aren't going to get it done with their current team. Griffin is an exciting and marketable young player. Durant would be going to a major market, an established coach, playing with a top shelf point guard and the NBA can reward it's newest owner who just spent a boatload for the team. The hang up, of course is that going East might make more sense than going West in terms of winning opportunity.

In the East, crazy as it sounds, Philly is a major market, it has the massive amount of asset ammo to get a deal done and still build around Durant and they have the most flexibility of any team in the league.

OKC would never get true 100 percent value on the dollar in any trade, however if Durant says he's going and he's gone no matter what, then it's about triage. It's about salvaging what you can from the situation.

The trades this year for Waiters and Kanter were push now trades. OKC made those trades as an open concession that this might be their last true contention year with this core.

"You can't get to him ( Hyman Roth). It's impossible. It would be like trying to kill the President!"
"Tom, if history has shown us anything, if anything is certain. It's that you can kill anyone. ( Implying JFK) Rocco?"
"Difficult, not impossible"
"Good"

- Tom Hagen, Michael Corleone and Rocco Lampone discussing assassinating Hyman Roth, Godfather Part II

The circumstances in which Durant could and would be traded to a non Knicks team would be difficult, not impossible. The only thing for certain is that they won't trade him while he is hurt.

I didn't think about that..I have been saying the Clippers needs to do something..Interesting..

What would ibaka do with Griffin at the 4?

yellowboy90 wrote:What would ibaka do with Griffin at the 4?

If Durant is on the way out..OKC has to completely rethink the structure of their basketball team...When Westbrook or Durant are out of the lineup, they are a .500 team, with Ibaka..

I'll never forget Russ's reaction to KD winning MVP last year. Priceless. Think he was eyeing the trophy?

MVP candidate Harden is trailing but tonight:

44 points on only 21 SHOTS!!!

4 rebounds

7 assists

The problem with Durant right now is that he has already had surgery twice on this bone--one to fix the fifth metatarsal then to remove the original screw that was "causing irritation" to a surrounding area with a new screw that did not have the same structure as the first screw. Problem is they had this surgery and the same irritation problem came back even worse. Now they shut him down and have become silent. I'm sure that he can be cleared to healthy--but it would be IMPOSSIBLE for any acquiring team (who would have to give up significant assets)to do the proper diligence on him. They will have zero chance to see him play in games. Just the fact alone that OKC said that Durant will not play again this season speaks volumes as there is potentially 4 months to go and a successful Jones surgery should only leave a player out about 6-8 weeks. It's pretty simple--any acquiring team in the summer would be going on full blind faith--these doctors were insistent that Durant would be ok TWICE. The only way to truly see he is OK is to watch him play a full season and stay healthy.

mreinman wrote:MVP candidate Harden is trailing but tonight:

44 points on only 21 SHOTS!!!

4 rebounds

7 assists

It's not 21 shots..Its really 32 shots attempts..They didn't count 11 of them because of fouls..

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:MVP candidate Harden is trailing but tonight:

44 points on only 21 SHOTS!!!

4 rebounds

7 assists

It's not 21 shots..Its really 32 shots attempts..They didn't count 11 of them because of fouls..

Are you sure none were 3 point plays or technical fouls?
Regardless, your point is well-taken but Harden still comes out at about 1.4 points per possession using your #s (44 and 32), which is outstanding. No team in the league averages even 1.1 points per possession.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:MVP candidate Harden is trailing but tonight:

44 points on only 21 SHOTS!!!

4 rebounds

7 assists

It's not 21 shots..Its really 32 shots attempts..They didn't count 11 of them because of fouls..

Are you sure none were 3 point plays or technical fouls?
Regardless, your point is well-taken but Harden still comes out at about 1.4 points per possession using your #s (44 and 32), which is outstanding. No team in the league averages even 1.1 points per possession.

Well using my methodology which is much more informative in my humble opinion...He is taking 23 shots to score 27 points per games..shooting 44% from two point land and 37% from three..Also, shooting a fantastic 87% from the free throw line...I'm gathering we are making a prolific free throw artist into an all world player...