mreinman wrote:Nalod wrote:I can't see DJordan as a knick. Has Phil ever had a guy like that on any team?Jordan is Tyson Chandler in my book, but not as good a FT shooter.
did you see rodman with a phil-team?
sure did!!!
Whats that? HOF speach? The dude is not on the same level of Tyson or Jordan. Way higher. Rodman had a crazy motor and could dominate both ends of the floor for short bursts and take over a game.
But lets not forget the scrubs he played with too! (sarcasm) Rodman was a role player. A HOF role player. Look at who he played with and the chemistry of how it all came together. Espeically in Detroit. Lambier could hit an outside shot!!!
Nalod wrote:mreinman wrote:Nalod wrote:I can't see DJordan as a knick. Has Phil ever had a guy like that on any team?Jordan is Tyson Chandler in my book, but not as good a FT shooter.
did you see rodman with a phil-team?
sure did!!!
Whats that? HOF speach? The dude is not on the same level of Tyson or Jordan. Way higher. Rodman had a crazy motor and could dominate both ends of the floor for short bursts and take over a game.
But lets not forget the scrubs he played with too! (sarcasm) Rodman was a role player. A HOF role player. Look at who he played with and the chemistry of how it all came together. Espeically in Detroit. Lambier could hit an outside shot!!!
you know Ive looked at Rodman's #s before so I knew his rebounding numbers were nothing short of epic. What I dont think I realized is how old he was when he won those 3 titles with Chi. Over those 3 years he averaged 15+ rebounds a game each year and that was at ages 34, 35 and 36.
Nalod wrote:mreinman wrote:Nalod wrote:I can't see DJordan as a knick. Has Phil ever had a guy like that on any team?Jordan is Tyson Chandler in my book, but not as good a FT shooter.
did you see rodman with a phil-team?
sure did!!!
Whats that? HOF speach? The dude is not on the same level of Tyson or Jordan. Way higher. Rodman had a crazy motor and could dominate both ends of the floor for short bursts and take over a game.
But lets not forget the scrubs he played with too! (sarcasm) Rodman was a role player. A HOF role player. Look at who he played with and the chemistry of how it all came together. Espeically in Detroit. Lambier could hit an outside shot!!!
of course DJ is not on the same level ... he is "a guy like that" though.
very good defender
great rebounder
better scorer actually
just saying that type (if by type you meant a guy who does the dirty work and will not create offense)
Rarely shoots the ball beyond 10 ft, rarely passes the ball for assists, cannot hit foul shots. He's never averaged over an assist/game, and surprisingly (to me) he has barely averaged over .5 SPG. If you want to say that LA has an offense which rarely goes through him, fine, but I expect that the reason for this might have to do with his abilities on the offensive end.
In an offense where you need to hit the mid-range shot and pass, Jordan will be out of place, and teams will use his limitations to clog up our offense.
You figure that most of his baskets come from P&R dunks and offensive rebounds-few plays where he initiates an offensive move on his own.
He has value, but not max contract value, and his value on this team will be limited.
A 21 PER on 13% usage is pretty great. Getting a player that can be productive without the ball is incredibly valuable. That was David Lee's best value when he was here. Also, he leads the league in both rebounds (15 per game) and FG% (71%). Add in 1 steal and 2 blocks per game. He does what he does well. Only knock I see is that he hits FTs at a 40% clip, which is atrocious.
Dollar for dollar, Bismack Biyombo may be the better acquisition. You have to project using per 36 mins for Biyombo, but you end up with 11 rebs and 3 blocks per game. Biyombo is an RFA though.
There are already reports that Dallas is targeting Jordan. He will get a max deal.
Bonn1997 wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:The average team gets about a point a possession, meaning 50% from the line and you would break even. If you're 5 percent below that, you're making one less free throw out of 20. If you take about 20 FTs a week, you're costing your team about a point a week.
He makes up for it and goes so far beyond that actually, that I would have no problem giving him the max.
Note that I actually read a while ago that 47% was the break even point but they didn't explain the number and I thought it would have been closer to low 50s. So I put 50% as a rough estimate.
Apples to oranges. The average team's point per possession is inclusive of their free throw percentage which on average is 75%+. Broadening the scope of FT shooting to a per possession loss factor is an error because not all possessions were created equally.
In the last two minutes of a game, arguably the most important 2 minutes, where there is a point differential of a few points, you are taking opportunities where you should get 1.5points per possession and trading that for .9pts per possession.
It is compounded in the short term because possessions decrease from 20 secs per possession to 2-4 secs per possession. You can end up with 10 possessions in that last minute. 1.5 -0.9 = 0.6 x 10 possessions = 6 points.
I still think he is worth that loss factor, for instance, Jordan recovers 15% of offensive rebounds -- meaning he gets 1 out of 6 misses back for his team - better than most players in the league. Overall his plus minus is pretty good. I might sit him in the foul shooting contests -- the last two minutes of a tight game, but otherwise, I think he gets a max contract.
No team gets 1.5 points per possession in the closing 2 min. Usually efficiency goes down in the closing parts of games actually.
If you foul me on every possession and my team gets 75% from the free throw line. Two shots per foul. On average, how many points should I get per possession? 1.5 by my math.
crzymdups wrote:DeAndre Jordan is going to get a 5 year max from the Clippers in the range of $104M. The most the Knicks could offer is 4yr $78M. You do the math.
I am still saying that more max players will take the 1&1 deal than the 5 year max.
its not all about the math though. im sure there are stats that show that his horrible FT shooting is a big deal..or is NOT a big deal. my concern is the strategy opponents will have against him in big spots. by forcing him to shoot (and inevitably miss) free throws; it SUCKS OUT the energy in the team and building. thats what i noticed in the spurs vs clips game yesterday. the clips had momentum and were on a roll; but the the hacking act destroyed all that. so to me it goes beyond the numbers; its the intangible negatives that i dont like about his game
I'd give Deandre Jordan the max if we could trade Melo for him right after.
EwingsGlass wrote:A 21 PER on 13% usage is pretty great. Getting a player that can be productive without the ball is incredibly valuable. That was David Lee's best value when he was here. Also, he leads the league in both rebounds (15 per game) and FG% (71%). Add in 1 steal and 2 blocks per game. He does what he does well. Only knock I see is that he hits FTs at a 40% clip, which is atrocious. Dollar for dollar, Bismack Biyombo may be the better acquisition. You have to project using per 36 mins for Biyombo, but you end up with 11 rebs and 3 blocks per game. Biyombo is an RFA though.
Try to run an offense through him similar to how the Gasol brothers are used and see what happens. Jordan's FG% actually tells you all you need to know about his offensive game, or rather Paul's ability to pass the ball.
Great defensive player and rebounder, but Jackson would never make him his prime FA pickup because is not a good fit in the triangle or any offense which gives its big men more responsibilities on the offensive end.
By the way, David Lee actually worked on his game and made himself into a more complete player (on the offensive end of the court, anyway). He was a good passer and knew how to cut to the basket without the ball.
Biyombo is another guy who is a killer on the offensive end, and he's done little to improve his game to the point where he might get significant minutes on a daily basis.
EwingsGlass wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:The average team gets about a point a possession, meaning 50% from the line and you would break even. If you're 5 percent below that, you're making one less free throw out of 20. If you take about 20 FTs a week, you're costing your team about a point a week.
He makes up for it and goes so far beyond that actually, that I would have no problem giving him the max.
Note that I actually read a while ago that 47% was the break even point but they didn't explain the number and I thought it would have been closer to low 50s. So I put 50% as a rough estimate.
Apples to oranges. The average team's point per possession is inclusive of their free throw percentage which on average is 75%+. Broadening the scope of FT shooting to a per possession loss factor is an error because not all possessions were created equally.
In the last two minutes of a game, arguably the most important 2 minutes, where there is a point differential of a few points, you are taking opportunities where you should get 1.5points per possession and trading that for .9pts per possession.
It is compounded in the short term because possessions decrease from 20 secs per possession to 2-4 secs per possession. You can end up with 10 possessions in that last minute. 1.5 -0.9 = 0.6 x 10 possessions = 6 points.
I still think he is worth that loss factor, for instance, Jordan recovers 15% of offensive rebounds -- meaning he gets 1 out of 6 misses back for his team - better than most players in the league. Overall his plus minus is pretty good. I might sit him in the foul shooting contests -- the last two minutes of a tight game, but otherwise, I think he gets a max contract.
No team gets 1.5 points per possession in the closing 2 min. Usually efficiency goes down in the closing parts of games actually.
If you foul me on every possession and my team gets 75% from the free throw line. Two shots per foul. On average, how many points should I get per possession? 1.5 by my math.
but teams don't get fouled on every possession. The issue here is how many points is Jordan costing his team
compared to an average alternative possession. It's not like the other team was going to automatically foul either Chris Paul or Jordan and they decided last second to go with Jordan. The options are send Jordan to the line or let the Clippers run a normal play, in which case they make 47.3% of their FGs and average slightly over a point a possession. (Those numbers go down in the final minutes on all teams, though.)
