Knicks · Kevin McHale Fired (page 3)

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

Always thought Ty Lawson was incredibly overrated and I think it's finally starting to show. Sad end for McHale. Really poor decision to fire him. He's a very good coach.

Way too soon for McHale to be fired, not too soon to ask him to show Porzingis some moves. Unfortunately he hasnt seemed as interested in teaching post play as Hakeem, not that he does it for free.

GustavBahler wrote:Way too soon for McHale to be fired, not too soon to ask him to show Porzingis some moves. Unfortunately he hasnt seemed as interested in teaching post play as Hakeem, not that he does it for free.

Have not looked into it, but you wonder if Howard ever really talked to McHale about helping him with his game.

Howard seems content with being known as a guy of immense physical talent who, for one reason or another, never really worked to add to his game.

Wasted talent, IMO, despite the accolades he has received over the years.

WaltLongmire wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Way too soon for McHale to be fired, not too soon to ask him to show Porzingis some moves. Unfortunately he hasnt seemed as interested in teaching post play as Hakeem, not that he does it for free.

Have not looked into it, but you wonder if Howard ever really talked to McHale about helping him with his game.

Howard seems content with being known as a guy of immense physical talent who, for one reason or another, never really worked to add to his game.

Wasted talent, IMO, despite the accolades he has received over the years.

I did say at the time that Howard would be a better pick than the other Okafor, but that doesn't mean as much as it used to. He just doesnt have that killer instinct IMO. Howard is a happy go lucky guy who doesn't have the chip on his shoulder that you find in great players.

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

Also fun to see the *excuses* made for the Rockets situation. Harden, Howard at one point Lin, Parsons, Beverly, backed by analytic structure. Yet all they have to show for it is a WCF which they "overachieved" the same level that Melo once reached even though he plays the wrong way.

Let me guess the West is tough, they lost to the eventual champs, there dealt with major injuries. This all sounds so familiar.

Does D'Antoni have a job right now? Maybe the Rockets can hire him?

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

yea this... Im not a Melo lover either. Calling the stuff you mentioned above stupid (which it is) does not make anyone a die hard MElo fan, just sensible.

My comment wasnt weak at all. Analytics isnt the key to long term success, good team building and talent evaluation are. But I guess Im a die-hard Melo fan so what do I know? My god, talk about weak.

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

yea this... Im not a Melo lover either. Calling the stuff you mentioned above stupid (which it is) does not make anyone a die hard MElo fan, just sensible.

My comment wasnt weak at all. Analytics isnt the key to long term success, good team building and talent evaluation are. But I guess Im a die-hard Melo fan so what do I know? My god, talk about weak.

computers are stupid too. what happened to just doing everything like a man??

computers aren't people ... duh!

howard and lawson are two team killers, IMO. Bad mix.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

yea this... Im not a Melo lover either. Calling the stuff you mentioned above stupid (which it is) does not make anyone a die hard MElo fan, just sensible.

My comment wasnt weak at all. Analytics isnt the key to long term success, good team building and talent evaluation are. But I guess Im a die-hard Melo fan so what do I know? My god, talk about weak.

computers are stupid too. what happened to just doing everything like a man??

computers aren't people ... duh!

I like the analytic stuff. My point though is that there are a ton of variables that go into winning. So when Melo was blamed as THE reason why those Denver teams didn't go deep into the playoffs. And any other variables were brought up that may have contributed to the failure as much or more. None of them were acceptable other then one variable that was convenient to the agenda.

So now Melo is out of the picture. Rockets arguably have had more talent then those Denver teams and more flexibility as well. Karl was never fired under Melo, didn't hear about much team turmoil in the locker room in the Denver yrs either(Well nothing came out publicly anyway). Just didn't go far in the playoffs.

I'm not attacking you Mreinman as I like your posting. Kobe a guy you hate had terrible analytics in your eyes yet won championships with those Laker teams. Again this isn't to say that analytics are wrong. Just that there are many other variable that go into winning. All that finger pointing in the past was stupid. Now watch Harden become the scapegoat if they don't turn it all around.

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

yea this... Im not a Melo lover either. Calling the stuff you mentioned above stupid (which it is) does not make anyone a die hard MElo fan, just sensible.

My comment wasnt weak at all. Analytics isnt the key to long term success, good team building and talent evaluation are. But I guess Im a die-hard Melo fan so what do I know? My god, talk about weak.

computers are stupid too. what happened to just doing everything like a man??

computers aren't people ... duh!

I like the analytic stuff. My point though is that there are a ton of variables that go into winning. So when Melo was blamed as THE reason why those Denver teams didn't go deep into the playoffs. And any other variables were brought up that may have contributed to the failure as much or more. None of them were acceptable other then one variable that was convenient to the agenda.

So now Melo is out of the picture. Rockets arguably have had more talent then those Denver teams and more flexibility as well. Karl was never fired under Melo, didn't hear about much team turmoil in the locker room in the Denver yrs either(Well nothing came out publicly anyway). Just didn't go far in the playoffs.

I'm not attacking you Mreinman as I like your posting. Kobe a guy you hate had terrible analytics in your eyes yet won championships with those Laker teams. Again this isn't to say that analytics are wrong. Just that there are many other variable that go into winning. All that finger pointing in the past was stupid. Now watch Harden become the scapegoat if they don't turn it all around.

I like it also... its very cool data. I work in IT in finance, Im good with numbers and how to present them.

There are some trends with the analytic crowd that irks me and here in lies the backlash:
1) statements about players folks have never seen. Im sorry, but looking at a guy's WS/48 does not qualify you to say that player is good or bad.

2) blanket statements based on stats such as "long 2's are bad shots." Declaring such things based on the stats tells me you have not spent time playing sports and dont understand what that entails. The more variety you have the more difficult you are to guard. There is always going to be an area that is your weakest output statistically. That doesnt mean eliminating that makes you better. In fact its the opposite. "Keeping defenders honest" isnt just a catch phrase. Its a real thing. It also doesnt factor the human part. If you have ever played for any period of time you know that certain things work better on certain days for a million possible different reasons. Sometimes the drive is it. Othertimse your killing it from deep. I pitched for 10+ years. I had days when my fastball was crackling and I could blow it by guys. Other days I didnt have great control so needed to rely on changing speeds more. Michael Jordan was the best player ever and lived on long 2s. Its about the player, the system and what the defense gives you. Basketball 101 has not changed.

3) FG% most certainly means something still. Why? Because 75% of all NBA rebounds are defensive, so 50% from 2 and 33% from 3 are NOT the same thing, not even phucking close. Hitting the shots you take still means something, because when you miss your handing it to the other team.

4) teamwork and chemistry trumps algos everytime. Morey had his nice moment last year and is learning this the hard way, pompous douche that he is. Hinke is another. This always come first. Data is important and should never be ignored, trends are important, analying those are important. Nobody is saying this stuff doesnt matter, but building a team around it hasnt shown anything.

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

yea this... Im not a Melo lover either. Calling the stuff you mentioned above stupid (which it is) does not make anyone a die hard MElo fan, just sensible.

My comment wasnt weak at all. Analytics isnt the key to long term success, good team building and talent evaluation are. But I guess Im a die-hard Melo fan so what do I know? My god, talk about weak.

computers are stupid too. what happened to just doing everything like a man??

computers aren't people ... duh!

I like the analytic stuff. My point though is that there are a ton of variables that go into winning. So when Melo was blamed as THE reason why those Denver teams didn't go deep into the playoffs. And any other variables were brought up that may have contributed to the failure as much or more. None of them were acceptable other then one variable that was convenient to the agenda.

So now Melo is out of the picture. Rockets arguably have had more talent then those Denver teams and more flexibility as well. Karl was never fired under Melo, didn't hear about much team turmoil in the locker room in the Denver yrs either(Well nothing came out publicly anyway). Just didn't go far in the playoffs.

I'm not attacking you Mreinman as I like your posting. Kobe a guy you hate had terrible analytics in your eyes yet won championships with those Laker teams. Again this isn't to say that analytics are wrong. Just that there are many other variable that go into winning. All that finger pointing in the past was stupid. Now watch Harden become the scapegoat if they don't turn it all around.

Couple of things:

1. Nobody should rely solely on analytics for anything. Its a tool that can assist where the outcome is not obvious to the eyes.
2. Houston's team does not come close to those Denvers teams
3. Harden was/is always super efficient regardless of the system that he is in. Melo was not. When he stops playing efficiently, he should take the same pounding.
4. Kobe was an inefficient chucker that had great supporting casts. He was also a fierce defender which helped/hid his disgusting chucks

For me, winning is about many variables but playing smart or stupid / selfish basketball should never have excuses. Many players played smart unselfish basketball on bad teams.

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

yea this... Im not a Melo lover either. Calling the stuff you mentioned above stupid (which it is) does not make anyone a die hard MElo fan, just sensible.

My comment wasnt weak at all. Analytics isnt the key to long term success, good team building and talent evaluation are. But I guess Im a die-hard Melo fan so what do I know? My god, talk about weak.

computers are stupid too. what happened to just doing everything like a man??

computers aren't people ... duh!

I like the analytic stuff. My point though is that there are a ton of variables that go into winning. So when Melo was blamed as THE reason why those Denver teams didn't go deep into the playoffs. And any other variables were brought up that may have contributed to the failure as much or more. None of them were acceptable other then one variable that was convenient to the agenda.

So now Melo is out of the picture. Rockets arguably have had more talent then those Denver teams and more flexibility as well. Karl was never fired under Melo, didn't hear about much team turmoil in the locker room in the Denver yrs either(Well nothing came out publicly anyway). Just didn't go far in the playoffs.

I'm not attacking you Mreinman as I like your posting. Kobe a guy you hate had terrible analytics in your eyes yet won championships with those Laker teams. Again this isn't to say that analytics are wrong. Just that there are many other variable that go into winning. All that finger pointing in the past was stupid. Now watch Harden become the scapegoat if they don't turn it all around.

Couple of things:

1. Nobody should rely solely on analytics for anything. Its a tool that can assist where the outcome is not obvious to the eyes.
2. Houston's team does not come close to those Denvers teams
3. Harden was/is always super efficient regardless of the system that he is in. Melo was not. When he stops playing efficiently, he should take the same pounding.
4. Kobe was an inefficient chucker that had great supporting casts. He was also a fierce defender which helped/hid his disgusting chucks

For me, winning is about many variables but playing smart or stupid / selfish basketball should never have excuses. Many players played smart unselfish basketball on bad teams.

statements like the bold really take away from anything else you have to say. Yea... Kobe, that guy really sucked. Amazing.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

yea this... Im not a Melo lover either. Calling the stuff you mentioned above stupid (which it is) does not make anyone a die hard MElo fan, just sensible.

My comment wasnt weak at all. Analytics isnt the key to long term success, good team building and talent evaluation are. But I guess Im a die-hard Melo fan so what do I know? My god, talk about weak.

computers are stupid too. what happened to just doing everything like a man??

computers aren't people ... duh!

I like the analytic stuff. My point though is that there are a ton of variables that go into winning. So when Melo was blamed as THE reason why those Denver teams didn't go deep into the playoffs. And any other variables were brought up that may have contributed to the failure as much or more. None of them were acceptable other then one variable that was convenient to the agenda.

So now Melo is out of the picture. Rockets arguably have had more talent then those Denver teams and more flexibility as well. Karl was never fired under Melo, didn't hear about much team turmoil in the locker room in the Denver yrs either(Well nothing came out publicly anyway). Just didn't go far in the playoffs.

I'm not attacking you Mreinman as I like your posting. Kobe a guy you hate had terrible analytics in your eyes yet won championships with those Laker teams. Again this isn't to say that analytics are wrong. Just that there are many other variable that go into winning. All that finger pointing in the past was stupid. Now watch Harden become the scapegoat if they don't turn it all around.

Couple of things:

1. Nobody should rely solely on analytics for anything. Its a tool that can assist where the outcome is not obvious to the eyes.
2. Houston's team does not come close to those Denvers teams
3. Harden was/is always super efficient regardless of the system that he is in. Melo was not. When he stops playing efficiently, he should take the same pounding.
4. Kobe was an inefficient chucker that had great supporting casts. He was also a fierce defender which helped/hid his disgusting chucks

For me, winning is about many variables but playing smart or stupid / selfish basketball should never have excuses. Many players played smart unselfish basketball on bad teams.

statements like the bold really take away from anything else you have to say. Yea... Kobe, that guy really sucked. Amazing.

stop being so black and white ... geeeeeez. Your melo defense and overall anger today is at its peak.

We all know what Kobe was and even though he was great, his chucking was disgusting. Disgusting enough that Phil tried desperately go get rid of him.

TEAM BALL!

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

yea this... Im not a Melo lover either. Calling the stuff you mentioned above stupid (which it is) does not make anyone a die hard MElo fan, just sensible.

My comment wasnt weak at all. Analytics isnt the key to long term success, good team building and talent evaluation are. But I guess Im a die-hard Melo fan so what do I know? My god, talk about weak.

computers are stupid too. what happened to just doing everything like a man??

computers aren't people ... duh!

I like the analytic stuff. My point though is that there are a ton of variables that go into winning. So when Melo was blamed as THE reason why those Denver teams didn't go deep into the playoffs. And any other variables were brought up that may have contributed to the failure as much or more. None of them were acceptable other then one variable that was convenient to the agenda.

So now Melo is out of the picture. Rockets arguably have had more talent then those Denver teams and more flexibility as well. Karl was never fired under Melo, didn't hear about much team turmoil in the locker room in the Denver yrs either(Well nothing came out publicly anyway). Just didn't go far in the playoffs.

I'm not attacking you Mreinman as I like your posting. Kobe a guy you hate had terrible analytics in your eyes yet won championships with those Laker teams. Again this isn't to say that analytics are wrong. Just that there are many other variable that go into winning. All that finger pointing in the past was stupid. Now watch Harden become the scapegoat if they don't turn it all around.

Couple of things:

1. Nobody should rely solely on analytics for anything. Its a tool that can assist where the outcome is not obvious to the eyes.
2. Houston's team does not come close to those Denvers teams
3. Harden was/is always super efficient regardless of the system that he is in. Melo was not. When he stops playing efficiently, he should take the same pounding.
4. Kobe was an inefficient chucker that had great supporting casts. He was also a fierce defender which helped/hid his disgusting chucks

For me, winning is about many variables but playing smart or stupid / selfish basketball should never have excuses. Many players played smart unselfish basketball on bad teams.

statements like the bold really take away from anything else you have to say. Yea... Kobe, that guy really sucked. Amazing.

stop being so black and white ... geeeeeez. Your melo defense and overall anger today is at its peak.

We all know what Kobe was and even though he was great, his chucking was disgusting. Disgusting enough that Phil tried desperately go get rid of him.

TEAM BALL!

Melo defense? Anger? I have no clue what your talking about. You seem to be tilting a bit.

Dont remember any reports of Phil desperately trying to get rid of him. So was Kobe "great" or was he "disgusting?" Maybe Im just struggling with your writing style. For example if I asked you about your new girlfriend and you said "she's great" but also called her a whore in the same sentance I would have no clue what to say or what you think.

Seems Kobe isnt *your* flavor of player and thats fine. Calling a legend and HOF player who has achieved every individual and TEAM accomplishment pretty much possible "disgusting" tells me you have an agenda. Its one thing to promote a style you like. I get it. Its another thing to call a style you dont like disgusting. Go watch Denver and enjoy. I will sign up for a decade of Kobe's disgusting play morning noon and night. Winning titles is fun.

Great and disgusting seem like black and white terms... geeze indeed

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:but Houston is #1 in analytics.. so long as they arent taking any long 2's they should be fine... Oh wait, the games are played by humans? Well THATS just stupid

fishmike ... this is really weak.

what does this have to do with analytics?? Nothing. Remember that they went ot the WCF and took GS to 6?

C'mon man. This is a situation where the GM and the coach did not get along and perhaps Harden is NBA's new primadona.

ClutchFans has a thread started by an 'insider' saying Morey is on the hot seat. Also, Ainge has offered McHale a job if he wants it.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celti...

I have not seen any die hard melo fans that does not love dissing anyone associated with advance analytics. Just saying.

Morey has had a very good run in Houston. No GM's last forever unless you win a chip.

The rockets were huge over achievers last year. Is Morey doing the best job with Personnel? I don't think so.

I am not a diehard Melo fan. I hated the trade at the time. However, he has earned my respect and the constant bashing of him is ridiculous in my opinion. The summer of bashing based on assumptions and speculations this year was ridiculous in my opinion.
In regards to Morey I don't care for him but not because of analytics. He is the only gm to use the poison pill since the new cba was put in place. His calling Cuban after the Howard signing. Reports that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and has to win every trade by a large margin etc. Lots of reasons not to like the guy.
In regards to your analytics/ Melo comment not sure where to go with that but I will say that many of the posters that are highly critical of players based on media speculation and assumptions need to be a bit more savy about the media and ny teams/players.

You mean like how Melo not showing up to Summer league was a sign that he hates young players and only wanted vets that can help him win right now. That he was attempting to hold the team hostage forcing them to make win now moves until he eventually demanded a trade.

Or how his 124mil contract was going to stop the Knicks from getting any type of blue chip level talent and keep the Knicks in mediocrity over the next 5yrs.

Or how no young players are ever able to develop next to him because his presences stunts there growth.

Yet if you don't accept these undeniable logical conclusions that are guaranteed to happen your a Melo lover. And if these made up narratives don't come to pass then its not because they were formed by illogical biased hate. It will be due to some other made up narrative that becomes convenient.

Still waiting on the direct evidence of Summer league appearances translating into regular season and playoff wins. Maybe if Melo showed up at Summer league we would be 11-1 right now and would have finished strong all those 4th quarters.

yea this... Im not a Melo lover either. Calling the stuff you mentioned above stupid (which it is) does not make anyone a die hard MElo fan, just sensible.

My comment wasnt weak at all. Analytics isnt the key to long term success, good team building and talent evaluation are. But I guess Im a die-hard Melo fan so what do I know? My god, talk about weak.

computers are stupid too. what happened to just doing everything like a man??

computers aren't people ... duh!

I like the analytic stuff. My point though is that there are a ton of variables that go into winning. So when Melo was blamed as THE reason why those Denver teams didn't go deep into the playoffs. And any other variables were brought up that may have contributed to the failure as much or more. None of them were acceptable other then one variable that was convenient to the agenda.

So now Melo is out of the picture. Rockets arguably have had more talent then those Denver teams and more flexibility as well. Karl was never fired under Melo, didn't hear about much team turmoil in the locker room in the Denver yrs either(Well nothing came out publicly anyway). Just didn't go far in the playoffs.

I'm not attacking you Mreinman as I like your posting. Kobe a guy you hate had terrible analytics in your eyes yet won championships with those Laker teams. Again this isn't to say that analytics are wrong. Just that there are many other variable that go into winning. All that finger pointing in the past was stupid. Now watch Harden become the scapegoat if they don't turn it all around.

Couple of things:

1. Nobody should rely solely on analytics for anything. Its a tool that can assist where the outcome is not obvious to the eyes.
2. Houston's team does not come close to those Denvers teams
3. Harden was/is always super efficient regardless of the system that he is in. Melo was not. When he stops playing efficiently, he should take the same pounding.
4. Kobe was an inefficient chucker that had great supporting casts. He was also a fierce defender which helped/hid his disgusting chucks

For me, winning is about many variables but playing smart or stupid / selfish basketball should never have excuses. Many players played smart unselfish basketball on bad teams.

statements like the bold really take away from anything else you have to say. Yea... Kobe, that guy really sucked. Amazing.

stop being so black and white ... geeeeeez. Your melo defense and overall anger today is at its peak.

We all know what Kobe was and even though he was great, his chucking was disgusting. Disgusting enough that Phil tried desperately go get rid of him.

TEAM BALL!

Melo defense? Anger? I have no clue what your talking about. You seem to be tilting a bit.

Dont remember any reports of Phil desperately trying to get rid of him. So was Kobe "great" or was he "disgusting?" Maybe Im just struggling with your writing style. For example if I asked you about your new girlfriend and you said "she's great" but also called her a whore in the same sentance I would have no clue what to say or what you think.

Seems Kobe isnt *your* flavor of player and thats fine. Calling a legend and HOF player who has achieved every individual and TEAM accomplishment pretty much possible "disgusting" tells me you have an agenda. Its one thing to promote a style you like. I get it. Its another thing to call a style you dont like disgusting. Go watch Denver and enjoy. I will sign up for a decade of Kobe's disgusting play morning noon and night. Winning titles is fun.

Great and disgusting seem like black and white terms... geeze indeed

watch denver? what? Is that like a dig from 2012 .... SMH

Kobe was a great disgusting player. Talented as anyone, selfish as anyone. You never heard that Phil tried to get rid of him? I read it in one of his books a few years ago. I think that he wrote that he went into kupchecks office a few times and said its me or him.

Yes. I hate kobe as a player and yes, I really really really hate selfish. Lakers fans must be thrilled with him now too holding the franchise hostage.

Anyone who mentions Kobe and MJ in the same breath should be stoned to death.

Kobe played beautiful basketball. Nothing disgusting about winning 5 titles. Selfish and disgusting are interesting choices of words. Sorry he bothers you so much, seems you struggle to accept there are other ways to win games besides the ones you enjoy watching. 11 times he was top 5 in MVP voting. Im not going to bother counting the all NBA first team, all NBA defense and other individual awards and honors he's picked up along the way to winning 5 titles.

Funny you hate hate hate Kobe, call him disgusting and then say Im angry lol. I dont get you sometimes. You mentioned Denver as team modeled after the analytic algo (which has yet to yield anything of substance.)

The problem with your points and comments is you love and are so fully vested analystics as the new age of the NBA you just cant deal with other views. So you can call Kobe's play disgusting all you want, doesnt make it true, and honestly makes you look silly.

fishmike wrote:Kobe played beautiful basketball. Nothing disgusting about winning 5 titles. Selfish and disgusting are interesting choices of words. Sorry he bothers you so much, seems you struggle to accept there are other ways to win games besides the ones you enjoy watching. 11 times he was top 5 in MVP voting. Im not going to bother counting the all NBA first team, all NBA defense and other individual awards and honors he's picked up along the way to winning 5 titles.

Funny you hate hate hate Kobe, call him disgusting and then say Im angry lol. I dont get you sometimes. You mentioned Denver as team modeled after the analytic algo (which has yet to yield anything of substance.)

The problem with your points and comments is you love and are so fully vested analystics as the new age of the NBA you just cant deal with other views. So you can call Kobe's play disgusting all you want, doesnt make it true, and honestly makes you look silly.

really? I "mentioned Denver as team modeled after the analytic algo"?

Your arguments are all over the place and you are also putting things in my mouth that I never said or believe. You seem to be trying to get a rise out of me for some reason today but I'm not really biting.

I know what Kobe is and if its beautiful to you then GOOD FOR YOU. I don't care for it. If you don't comprehend what that means for me and feel like you need to list his accolades then go ahead.

10 years ago, with people having the mind set that some hold overs like you - have today, people would think that Kobe is still a really great player. The poor guy just has a bad coach and a bad supporting cast. Poor Kobe

Also, I don't think you really have a clue in regards to what I believe about analytics and the more you make assumptions that are wrong the more obvious it is.

I believe in a combination of both the eye test and analytics and belief they are both crucial to achieve success. You can't have a brilliant analytics guy who is a too l nor can you have a great basketball mind/eye guy who does not use analytics in a big way to help him make decisions.

Don't know what you are yelling about. Teams like GSW and the Spurs are from the top few teams the heavily utilize analytics. The Dallas mavericks relied heavily upon it to win a ring. The knicks relied heavily on it to win 54, Cleveland relies heavily on it ... everybody does (now/finally).

Fans not knowing what is going on and coming onto message boards flexing their muscles and slamming hinkie (who is completely unproven and not the face of analytics) is a bit comical. You think that is a valid argument against analytics? If yes, then go for it.

Like briggs in the other thread this morning. "I think that analytics is stupid". You can be like Byron Scott and Charles Barkley (2 genius's) or by the rest of the NBA who is relying heavily on it.

Like Cuban has said, you can join the club or get left behind and be at a big disadvantage.

As far as 3 points shooting, teams will adjust to this and figure out how to hurt its efficiency and then there will be a new adjustments. Then purist will scream "WHAT HAPPEN TO THE FUKKING 3?" WHAT IS WITH ALL THESE STUPID LONG 2'S?"