Knicks · BREAKING: Woj: Knicks/Bulls advanced talks for Rose (page 15)
the nuts and bolts to me is that phil wasted the last 2 years on the triangle. now he is just treading water for a year which may backfire bc the real #1 priority for the team shoukd be getti g a high a pick as possible to help porzingis bulding the team...and this move could hurt that. and after 3 full seasons, its really no different than what walsh did...all in for 2010...now its 2017. melo made the choice but he really wasted 3 years of his prime and now it might be 4.
gunsnewing wrote:NumberTwoPencil wrote:The difference between Livingston and Rose, so far, in dealing with injury is that Livingston has changed his style of play, plays reduced minutes, and is basically a seventh man on a good team. Every time Rose has come back from an injury, he's jumped right in and proclaimed himself just as able as the pre-injury Rose . . . and then he's gotten injured. Maybe it was necessity for Livingston but for whatever reasons, he's been way, way smarter about his injuries, his career, and his playing style than Rose.Livingston was never the same caliber of Player as Rose. I mean we are talking about a former MVP and stud capillaries Memphis guard picked #1. Even our beloved Melo never sniffed an MVP.
No question Rose has to adapt and be Zen'd mentally. The transition was probably easier for Livingston since he was always a pass first high IQ PG.
Melo bought in a good portion of last season no reason why Rose can't do the same as he matures
Agreed with everything you said regarding Rose. Melo sniffed and arguably shoulda won MVP the 52 win season if we are keeping score of that. I don't think it's relevant but worth pointing out. Agreed he bought in last yr. Even though we had some real trash on the perimeter he made playing a team game a point of emphasis.
Not necessarily a move that will lead the Knicks to a ring, but one of our biggest weak spots, one of the areas where we were most weak in, we have now come out at worst above average.
The bigger thing to me is that I believe the Knicks are looking to make a move for Durant or DeRozan. They have some established names now with Porzingis, Melo and Rose. The 3 of them based on last year alone give a team 15/8, 22/8/4, 16/5 respectively. This team looks completely different to a free agent like Durant, DeRozan or Howard now.
djsunyc wrote:i just looked at rose's numbers and im 100% convinced this is a pure roll of the dice deal with no expectations. there is no baskeball reason to make a move for him. this was for dumping lopez contract. now if phil signs someone like howard or pau or noah for the same amount for multiple years, then everyone should really be concerned considering the health and or age of those players. anyone talking about rose as a player is talking completely on emotion.
+1 - Well said
jimmybutlerMy point guard, my brother: you taught me so much since I came into this league as a 21 year old kid from Marquette. For me, coming to Chicago to play and learn from you, an MVP, was eye-opening. You helped shape me into the player I am today. Helped teach me the work ethic needed to excel in this league. You are a leader, thru and thru. Always a supportive teammate and friend. I'll always be thankful for the opportunity I had to play alongside you each night and I know you're going to continue to be the great player and leader you were in Chicago for years to come.
what is the plan?
The way the Knicks need Rose to play, and how Bulls expected him to, are worlds apart.
In NY Rose has to set the table, push the ball and try to drive into the paint when there are openings. The number one option is Melo, always will be. In all of the years Rose played in CHI, he never had a player of Melo's scoring skill. Then we have KP. Based on last year, we have already established that Porzingis and Melo are going to be our two top guys.
Rose's role will be same as Jose, only he will be able to do more within it, due to his higher skill level.
Whats best is we only made a 1 year investment here, and have opened up playing time for KP at his best position on offense - 5 spot. Hornachek did wonders with Bledsoe, Dragic and Thomas. He could do something with Rose.
Give this a chance - and we are not a finished product. From my calculations we still have 30$M in capspace to sign a 5 and 2. Or go after Durant/DeRozan.
djsunyc wrote:i just looked at rose's numbers and im 100% convinced this is a pure roll of the dice deal with no expectations. there is no baskeball reason to make a move for him. this was for dumping lopez contract. now if phil signs someone like howard or pau or noah for the same amount for multiple years, then everyone should really be concerned considering the health and or age of those players. anyone talking about rose as a player is talking completely on emotion.
We will see who they go after this off season come FA. I could see them zeroing in more on 2017. If we could end up with Paul(Who takes a discount to try and win) Olapido and Ibaka to pair with Melo and KP going into his 3rd yr....
I could see Thibbs turning Olapido into a real beast though and them locking him up.
mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:I just saw the news. Are people really defending this trade? Are people really defending Phil? Phil just continue to make dumb mistake after dumb mistake. This is the same old knick, no culture change at all. Phil gave up Lopez for a player who has a name and no game. They traded for a bum. This is said day yo.1yr left on his deal! This isn't trading for Bargnani and throwing in your lottery pick to sweeten the deal!
so what ... expirings are worthless to us. why give away a valuable and tradable asset for crap? Steve Francis
This is different. Rose expiring sets us up to have more cap space than any other team. Francis expiring was irrelevant since we had Marbury, Curry, Crawford, Mo Taylor, Penny & Malik Rose & company for multiple additional years
why? we did not need to take on his contract. How did we get more cap space? by giving up a very reasonable lopez contract? we could have traded that easily for real value .... c'mon guys ... no way to spin this
This part ^^ is true. But I think the point is this deal wasn't driven by cap space. It was a factor and it was the floor. If all bad happens worst case we're set up for 2017. (Yes we could get there other ways eg flipping rolo for a pick or simply giving him away as we did w shump and jr)
I think they must believe that the ceiling is an all star caliber point guard perhaps in a better situation.
nyknickzingis wrote:Team went from Calderon to Rose. Huge upgrade even if Rose is no longer the player he once was.
The way the Knicks need Rose to play, and how Bulls expected him to, are worlds apart.In NY Rose has to set the table, push the ball and try to drive into the paint when there are openings. The number one option is Melo, always will be. In all of the years Rose played in CHI, he never had a player of Melo's scoring skill. Then we have KP. Based on last year, we have already established that Porzingis and Melo are going to be our two top guys.
Rose's role will be same as Jose, only he will be able to do more within it, due to his higher skill level.
Whats best is we only made a 1 year investment here, and have opened up playing time for KP at his best position on offense - 5 spot. Hornachek did wonders with Bledsoe, Dragic and Thomas. He could do something with Rose.
Give this a chance - and we are not a finished product. From my calculations we still have 30$M in capspace to sign a 5 and 2. Or go after Durant/DeRozan.
Well said. Also the Knicks can have more cap space if they renounce cap holds. They're going to be going hard in Free Agency. This will be a more attractive destination after this deal. Also expect some UDFA's to be picked up.
gunsnewing wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Shaun Livingston was all b ut done as well. Looks pretty good now.
They key with Rose--keep him under 30 minutes and play him 70-75 games--thats it.We only have like 6 guys on the roster so were going top need to fill it out. If we want max cap space we need to sign a lot of 1 year deals and or longer term UDFA that stay under 1mm.
Exactly plenty of guys were deemed to be finished and were revived in a different role.
Please sign Lin. Let JH work the magic
We don't need Lin. We need a sniper who plays good D
gunsnewing wrote:fishmike wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Shaun Livingston was all b ut done as well. Looks pretty good now.and honestly Livington's injury was far worse.... the one thing about this is Rose's age. 27 is young.
They key with Rose--keep him under 30 minutes and play him 70-75 games--thats it.We only have like 6 guys on the roster so were going top need to fill it out. If we want max cap space we need to sign a lot of 1 year deals and or longer term UDFA that stay under 1mm.
Its a calculated risk and your hedge is a total roster overhaul next year. I cant really react to much as this is clearly the start of a busy offseason. Really this comes down to who's next?
Yea I can't believe he is still only 27! Sometimes guys need a few seasons to start resembling their old self after a major injury.
Last year was rough on everyone in Chicago under Hoiberg and he wasn't getting along with Butler but he came on late. He's a few years removed from the injury now and will be playing for his last significant deal.
This gamble can really pay dividends. If not then we start fresh next year with infinite capspace and our pick!
On point
Hornachek as coach.
More modern Triangle.
Rose as his point guard.
Abandoning the Lopez/Porzingis big lineup.
I think in that 6 hour meeting with Phil, Hornachek presented stats and a clear picture in how Phil needed to adapt the then Knicks. Thats why he went with Hornachek. Rambis did exactly what Phil would. Hornachek is instigating major change.
People need to understand that the offense and style Hornachek wants, theres no way in hell he was going to be able to do that without a point guard who is not capable of 15-20 points and 5-7 asssists a night. Our best bet was Conley in free agency, but you look at Conley his numbers arent that much better than Rose, and he is going to get 100$M over 4 years if he were to be a Knick. This is a risk in the short run, as Rose could be injured and not produce next season, but longterm we are in a great spot. We have KP, Melo and 60$M in capspace for 2017. If we can sign someone like DeRozan or a prime star player this summer, we will still have 35-40$M in cap space next summer.
nyknickzingis wrote:Team went from Calderon to Rose. Huge upgrade even if Rose is no longer the player he once was.
The way the Knicks need Rose to play, and how Bulls expected him to, are worlds apart.In NY Rose has to set the table, push the ball and try to drive into the paint when there are openings. The number one option is Melo, always will be. In all of the years Rose played in CHI, he never had a player of Melo's scoring skill. Then we have KP. Based on last year, we have already established that Porzingis and Melo are going to be our two top guys.
Rose's role will be same as Jose, only he will be able to do more within it, due to his higher skill level.
Whats best is we only made a 1 year investment here, and have opened up playing time for KP at his best position on offense - 5 spot. Hornachek did wonders with Bledsoe, Dragic and Thomas. He could do something with Rose.
Give this a chance - and we are not a finished product. From my calculations we still have 30$M in capspace to sign a 5 and 2. Or go after Durant/DeRozan.
Agreed 100 percent . and who would you rather have giving KP the ball rose or Jose . That answer is simple.
Also we are talking about dumping multi year contracts for 1 year of rose and more cap space then before. Esp next year
Again KP is the future 5 not Lopez who sat out how many 4th quarters cause the nba is all speed now
NumberTwoPencil wrote:The difference between Livingston and Rose, so far, in dealing with injury is that Livingston has changed his style of play, plays reduced minutes, and is basically a seventh man on a good team. Every time Rose has come back from an injury, he's jumped right in and proclaimed himself just as able as the pre-injury Rose . . . and then he's gotten injured. Maybe it was necessity for Livingston but for whatever reasons, he's been way, way smarter about his injuries, his career, and his playing style than Rose.
This is true. This is why I used the baseball analogy. Rose will need to stop throwing and start pitching. Selective drives, more tear drops and mid range and more getting pumped for an assist
Back to Phils point of being transformative and not transactional
fitzfarm wrote:Bucher was raving about how Rose has never had two teammates as offensively talented as Melo and KP.nyknickzingis wrote:Team went from Calderon to Rose. Huge upgrade even if Rose is no longer the player he once was.
The way the Knicks need Rose to play, and how Bulls expected him to, are worlds apart.In NY Rose has to set the table, push the ball and try to drive into the paint when there are openings. The number one option is Melo, always will be. In all of the years Rose played in CHI, he never had a player of Melo's scoring skill. Then we have KP. Based on last year, we have already established that Porzingis and Melo are going to be our two top guys.
Rose's role will be same as Jose, only he will be able to do more within it, due to his higher skill level.
Whats best is we only made a 1 year investment here, and have opened up playing time for KP at his best position on offense - 5 spot. Hornachek did wonders with Bledsoe, Dragic and Thomas. He could do something with Rose.
Give this a chance - and we are not a finished product. From my calculations we still have 30$M in capspace to sign a 5 and 2. Or go after Durant/DeRozan.
Agreed 100 percent . and who would you rather have giving KP the ball rose or Jose . That answer is simple.
Also we are talking about dumping multi year contracts for 1 year of rose and more cap space then before. Esp next year
Again KP is the future 5 not Lopez who sat out how many 4th quarters cause the nba is all speed now
Kemet wrote:nixluva wrote:shinmen wrote:Pleaaase Nooooo! I Hate this trade.The knicks lost a promising rookie and will miss terribly Lopez. He was the best screen setter of the team, he blocked on rebounds, provided good defense and proved he could score a bit.
He helped KP a lot.At best, Rose will break down in January and we will be a lottery team with a pick.
At worst, he'll be healthy, command a max and break down the day after. Amare all over again.We got bamboozled AGAIN.
No one got bamboozeled! As was explained earlier, this is a move with High Reward and low Risk. If things implode, Rose comes off the books and we have our pick next year as well. So we would have plenty of cap space in a great Free Agent class. There isn't much downside for the Knicks.The big thing is that Hornacek is having a MASSIVE impact on the construction of this team. If anyone was wondering how Phil would work with his coach, this pretty much tells you he's gonna give him all the support he can to make Hornacek's vision come true. Doesn't seem like Phil has resisted what Horny is looking to do.
Face the truth once in ur life .. we just made another backward move keeping us as a 32 win or less team next season, while helping the Butler Chicago Bulls make the playoff next season without ball-hogger Rose.
Noah n Gasol may want to resign now that the so-called franchise player is gone.
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man gasol would fit here perfectly as a big man in the kind of offense that hornacek wants to run. he would also be a fantastic guy to mentor kp - gasol has been around a long time and seen a lot of playoff success. i think we could probably get him at SOMEWHAT of a discount, too.
fitzfarm wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Team went from Calderon to Rose. Huge upgrade even if Rose is no longer the player he once was.
The way the Knicks need Rose to play, and how Bulls expected him to, are worlds apart.In NY Rose has to set the table, push the ball and try to drive into the paint when there are openings. The number one option is Melo, always will be. In all of the years Rose played in CHI, he never had a player of Melo's scoring skill. Then we have KP. Based on last year, we have already established that Porzingis and Melo are going to be our two top guys.
Rose's role will be same as Jose, only he will be able to do more within it, due to his higher skill level.
Whats best is we only made a 1 year investment here, and have opened up playing time for KP at his best position on offense - 5 spot. Hornachek did wonders with Bledsoe, Dragic and Thomas. He could do something with Rose.
Give this a chance - and we are not a finished product. From my calculations we still have 30$M in capspace to sign a 5 and 2. Or go after Durant/DeRozan.
Agreed 100 percent . and who would you rather have giving KP the ball rose or Jose . That answer is simple.
Also we are talking about dumping multi year contracts for 1 year of rose and more cap space then before. Esp next year
Again KP is the future 5 not Lopez who sat out how many 4th quarters cause the nba is all speed now
Agree with all of the above. Also consider this may involve KP at 5 which might be better offense and melo at 4 where he might be better than as a 3
Rolo is great and played better than many expected. Good for us
KP also played better than expected. Again good for us
My only gripe is I still feel we deserved more in return. That's what he big question. Were there other buyers and was this the deal that was needed or did we overpay
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