Knicks · End result of starting lineup after shakeup (page 1)

J Noah, age 31-35, $18-yr, 4.3pg, 8.8R, 3.8 a 1.0 blk, 38%, 14.1 per, 22 mins, 29 games
Lopez , age 28-31, $13yr , 10.3, 7.3., 1.4 a 1.6 blk ,54%, 17.7 per, 27 mins, 82 games

Rose, age 27-fa, $21, 16.4pg, 4.7a, 3.4r, 43%, 29% 3pt, 2.8 to, 13.5 per , 32 mins, 66 games
Calderon, 34-fa, $8, 7.6pg, 4.1a, 3.2r, 46%, 41% 3pt 1.2to, 12.3 per, 28mins, 72 games

CLee, age 30-34, $12, 9.6 pg, 1.7 a, 2.6r, 1.0 to 45%, 38% 3pt, 11.6 per, 30 mins, 75 games
Affalo,age 30-32, $12, 12.8pg, 2.0 a, 3.7r, 1.2 to 44%, 38% 3pt, 11.0 per, 33 mins 71 games

MY OPINIONS ONLY--If starters can stay healthy this should be a better team assuming a decent bench can be gathered ( bring back Thomas). The starting unit is more complementary, team D and speed is upgraded and O should be more diversified if Hornachek can get Rose to do what is needed.. . Imo ten to twelve games 42-44 wins and a playoff berth. Noah should be slightly better than Lopez in boarding and pnr D but he has declined somewhat and his lift has faded so I expect our interior D and his abilty to convert to be same or less compared to Robn. That fg 38% is an outlier that should rise. His plus in any O scheme is his abilty to handleand pass which should help both KP and Melo. A so-so Rose is obviously still an upgrade over Calderon though he needs to show improvement across the board to make the desired impact. Improvement can be expected but he's not elite and I still hold out hope that Westbrook is the real target for 17 because only then can we have true hopes to challenge for ECF. Otherwise we are simply a competitive team/product that falls short while getting older. Noah and Lee likely will not be very tradeable in 3rd and 4th years. Lee is a better fit for this team than Affalo who is a better talent. AA is a scorer first and foremost could win games by himself on occasion but Lee wont need the ball and should be more consistent and useful in his role as a all around contributor. The end result of this route for me is a better team , a more enjoyable watch but......

meloanyk. Would we be better off just staying pat waive and stretch Calderon been a little more aggressive in draft and sign 1 year deals for the most part?

BRIGGS wrote:meloanyk. Would we be better off just staying pat waive and stretch Calderon been a little more aggressive in draft and sign 1 year deals for the most part?

Other than Afflalo who is signing one year deals?

IMO it's not just about the roster changes, but the change in approach as well. Hornacek is going to have an impact in how he has the team play. More PnR and uptempo. Overall the team should be able to play a bit faster than last year with more ability to attack the rim and stay in motion minus RoLo and AA who slow the offense down when they get the ball.

Another intangible is that these guys are actually friends off the court and want to play together. I'm betting they have a better than typical improvement over the roster from last year. The chemistry should be much better. MOTIVATION is also being underestimated. These guys know what people think about them and they want to prove they are not washed up. It's a scenario where Rose, Melo and Noah are another year away from their Knee surgeries. That could have a positive impact.

BRIGGS wrote:meloanyk. Would we be better off just staying pat waive and stretch Calderon been a little more aggressive in draft and sign 1 year deals for the most part?

This is a cry for help.

Intervention time, y'all.

BRIGGS wrote:meloanyk. Would we be better off just staying pat waive and stretch Calderon been a little more aggressive in draft and sign 1 year deals for the most part?

Yes. We went the win now route instead of the developmental route. If we had let all these bozos shake out, we could've signed the leftovers to 1 year deals and pounce on the real free agent prizes next year.

It was a domino effect, we gambled on trading for Rose, which led to his teammate Noah, that led to him recruiting Lee..and we're really only marginally better but no where realistically competing for a Championship.

I think Phil got caught up in the hysteria armed with 30m in cash when he could've had a Punisher sized armory next year with 60m to go after legit studs.

ChuckBuck wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:meloanyk. Would we be better off just staying pat waive and stretch Calderon been a little more aggressive in draft and sign 1 year deals for the most part?

Yes. We went the win now route instead of the developmental route. If we had let all these bozos shake out, we could've signed the leftovers to 1 year deals and pounce on the real free agent prizes next year.

It was a domino effect, we gambled on trading for Rose, which led to his teammate Noah, that led to him recruiting Lee..and we're really only marginally better but no where realistically competing for a Championship.

I think Phil got caught up in the hysteria armed with 30m in cash when he could've had a Punisher sized armory next year with 60m to go after legit studs.

How do you know this team is only marginally better? You can't really say that at this moment. If the team improves then Phil has an easier time convincing a FA next summer. How is this Phil getting "caught up in hysteria"? Where do you get this stuff? Have you seen Phil talking? He's as calm and cool as a cucumber and sober about the needs the team still has. He's been extremely rationale over the last 2 offseasons. People talk like he's been acting wildly but this has been a very calculated set of moves that make sense. The Roster is no longer ill fitted to the style they want to play.

ChuckBuck wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:meloanyk. Would we be better off just staying pat waive and stretch Calderon been a little more aggressive in draft and sign 1 year deals for the most part?

Yes. We went the win now route instead of the developmental route. If we had let all these bozos shake out, we could've signed the leftovers to 1 year deals and pounce on the real free agent prizes next year.

It was a domino effect, we gambled on trading for Rose, which led to his teammate Noah, that led to him recruiting Lee..and we're really only marginally better but no where realistically competing for a Championship.

I think Phil got caught up in the hysteria armed with 30m in cash when he could've had a Punisher sized armory next year with 60m to go after legit studs.

All three of them.

I wonder if Knicks fans will let Jackson have it and voice their displeasure.

ChuckBuck wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:meloanyk. Would we be better off just staying pat waive and stretch Calderon been a little more aggressive in draft and sign 1 year deals for the most part?

Yes. We went the win now route instead of the developmental route. If we had let all these bozos shake out, we could've signed the leftovers to 1 year deals and pounce on the real free agent prizes next year.

It was a domino effect, we gambled on trading for Rose, which led to his teammate Noah, that led to him recruiting Lee..and we're really only marginally better but no where realistically competing for a Championship.

I think Phil got caught up in the hysteria armed with 30m in cash when he could've had a Punisher sized armory next year with 60m to go after legit studs.

I question whether we will "win now" right J D? I hope we get Demetrius Jackson. I would give that the highest off season grade by a wide margin. It would've been nice keeping his teammate and letting them develop together. We're not beating these teams in the east and one of the big 3 will pull up lame before 30 games. And that one I'll take wager on

CrushAlot wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:meloanyk. Would we be better off just staying pat waive and stretch Calderon been a little more aggressive in draft and sign 1 year deals for the most part?

Other than Afflalo who is signing one year deals?

+1 - How would we have met the cap floor using this strategy?

So the Knicks were not using the $32m in cap space if they did not trade for Rose?

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:meloanyk. Would we be better off just staying pat waive and stretch Calderon been a little more aggressive in draft and sign 1 year deals for the most part?

Yes. We went the win now route instead of the developmental route. If we had let all these bozos shake out, we could've signed the leftovers to 1 year deals and pounce on the real free agent prizes next year.

It was a domino effect, we gambled on trading for Rose, which led to his teammate Noah, that led to him recruiting Lee..and we're really only marginally better but no where realistically competing for a Championship.

I think Phil got caught up in the hysteria armed with 30m in cash when he could've had a Punisher sized armory next year with 60m to go after legit studs.

How do you know this team is only marginally better? You can't really say that at this moment. If the team improves then Phil has an easier time convincing a FA next summer. How is this Phil getting "caught up in hysteria"? Where do you get this stuff? Have you seen Phil talking? He's as calm and cool as a cucumber and sober about the needs the team still has. He's been extremely rationale over the last 2 offseasons. People talk like he's been acting wildly but this has been a very calculated set of moves that make sense. The Roster is no longer ill fitted to the style they want to play.

I hope you're right for your sake and your physical and mental health.

BTW, if these moves backfire in Phil's face, he has an opt out clause in his contract after this season...

yellowboy90 wrote:So the Knicks were not using the $32m in cap space if they did not trade for Rose?

No, no.

They were distributing $32m dollars to the scrap heap players on one year deals.

And that would have went over so well...

How would Lee better than AA apart from defensive end actually?

Knickoftime wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So the Knicks were not using the $32m in cap space if they did not trade for Rose?

No, no.

They were distributing $32m dollars to the scrap heap players on one year deals.

And that would have went over so well...

You act like that would be the only option. Plus, one can argue that Rose and Noah are scrap heap players. To make it worse if they do not improve they are scrap heap players on long deals.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So the Knicks were not using the $32m in cap space if they did not trade for Rose?

No, no.

They were distributing $32m dollars to the scrap heap players on one year deals.

And that would have went over so well...

You act like that would be the only option.

No, I'm describing the proposed strategy of the Rose critics.

to me the biggest question is rose: will he subsume his score first mentality in the half-court offense and allow noah and melo to be facilitators or will he get in the way? i have no issue with rose pushing the ball and trying to get the knicks transition buckets, but i have issues with his holding onto the ball looking for openings and wasting precious time in the half court. he is just not that good as a pick and roll player so expecting more pick and roll this season with rose back there will likely be a study in frustration and underachievement. can rose dial it back and preserve his brittle body, and become a guard who can maintain his dribble, leave his feet less often, not try to be a hero and torque the crap out of his knees, and become a better pick and roll passer? these are the issues i foresee with him.

that said, i do like what i have read from kp6 this morning, namely that he expects to be able to get a lot of putbacks off of rose misses at the rim, which is a telling comment....

i love the noah acquisition and i think the lee acquisition was prudent-- a big upgrade over asshat afflalo in terms of defense and fit, and attitude. what his stats don't show overtly he will make up for in intangibles and synergy.

go knicks!

stopstandthere wrote:How would Lee better than AA apart from defensive end actually?

Uh that defense is a HUGE aspect but in actuality Lee is better on offense too. If you think about how the team wants to play. Lee is better running the floor and finishing at the rim. He doesn't hold or pound the ball into the ground. It's just a better fit for how Hornacek will run this team.

           
                                                          AST                    TO
Overall	        GP MIN  OffRtg  DefRtg NetRtg AST% AST/TO Ratio OREB% DREB% REB% Ratio eFG% TS%   USG% PACE  PIE
Courtney Lee	79 29.6	106.2	103.3   2.9   8.8  1.89   15.1  1.4   8.7   5.0  8.0   51.8 55.1  15.0 95.81 7.1
Arron Afflalo	71 33.4	103.1	106.3  -3.2   9.7  1.76   13.3  1.1   10.9  6.1  7.6   50.0 53.1  18.1 94.97 7.6

This is potentially the best Knicks lineup since Sprewell/Houston/Camby/LJ. I know it probably won't be long lived. But long lived is hard in the NBA. Warriors just lost Harrison Barnes. OKC lost Ibaka and Harden over the years.

I get that people want to build through the draft... I do too. But sometimes it makes more sense to go for it. The chance to get DRose and Noah with something to prove for very little risk? It's worth it. If you don't see now, you'll see next May when the Knicks are actually playing meaningful basketball for once.

crzymdups wrote:This is potentially the best Knicks lineup since Sprewell/Houston/Camby/LJ. I know it probably won't be long lived. But long lived is hard in the NBA. Warriors just lost Harrison Barnes. OKC lost Ibaka and Harden over the years.

I get that people want to build through the draft... I do too. But sometimes it makes more sense to go for it. The chance to get DRose and Noah with something to prove for very little risk? It's worth it. If you don't see now, you'll see next May when the Knicks are actually playing meaningful basketball for once.

I haven't kept up with Barnes. Did the Warriors decide not to match?

crzymdups wrote:This is potentially the best Knicks lineup since Sprewell/Houston/Camby/LJ. I know it probably won't be long lived. But long lived is hard in the NBA. Warriors just lost Harrison Barnes. OKC lost Ibaka and Harden over the years.

I get that people want to build through the draft... I do too. But sometimes it makes more sense to go for it. The chance to get DRose and Noah with something to prove for very little risk? It's worth it. If you don't see now, you'll see next May when the Knicks are actually playing meaningful basketball for once.

There are two upsides to this team. kP individual improvement and the hope that d wade at 27 can give us the same year am are did his first year