Knicks · Derrick Rose vs. Top Competitors (page 4)
nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:dk7th wrote:Excellent Post. As much as i hate knick haters there seems to be Another group that is just as bad. Optimism is good but that doesnt mean every move or decision the knicks make is fantastic. Im probably the biggest knick fan out there. I never miss a game and i go to multiple games(even though its expensive) HOWEVER i try to be impartial even if its not 175 percent positive. Unfortunetly that upsets a certain group and you get labeled a hater which is bullcrapknicks1248 wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Im kinda surprised how many Rose threads there are. I know its mostly one person but there are a lot of other things that i think are even more exciting. Obviously KP coming of his great rookie reason is the top thing IMO,hornacek getting another shot,how noah and cortney lee will really improve our defense,jennings, and, the debut of willy. Hell i even miss melo threads.
I already see Rose is going to be the next melo/Amare, the player ya love to hate. If he has a bad game and we lose, he will be the new whipping boythat's assuming people have a WWF mentality where you have to dumb shyt down to good guy/bad guy. some people are actually impartial, even-handed, fair-minded, dispensing critique and praise where warranted.
I hate that double standard. Why does a fan have to be on one side of the fence or another? What's wrong with being critical when 10000% warranted? Some narrow minded fans expect you to drink the Kool Aid, but what if it's been spiked for 16+ years?
There's every single reason in the world to be skeptical of the product on the floor. Until they prove otherwise, let the proof be in the pudding. Thankfully we have a flicker of hope in a 7'3 unicorn on the team, otherwise it'd be even tougher supporting this franchise. Been a fan since the womb and don't intend to jump ship. Ever. Does that make me a bad fan if I'm tough on the Knicks, and they haven't won a title in my lifetime and proceed to rip my heart out year after year?
OK just so we're clear NO ONE has ever said that legit critique can't be made and is made by EVERYONE on this forum. It's simply not true that any of us is ever completely happy with everything going on with this team. However, it's the damn offseason and this team has been remade with better players at key positions. It's a time of typical optimism and hope for a good season. Some have a problem with certain posts being overly negative and nasty towards the team.
IT'S A KNICKS FAN FORUM!!! What do you think most come here for? Most want to talk about legit issues and possibilities for the New Coach and Players. At this early stage it's sometimes a bit much to have some guys post a stream of nothing but negative things. So yes there is a lot of optimism right now and that's to be expected after another busy offseason and new upgrades. No one is saying the team is perfect and will not have any issues this season. However, there is MORE POSITIVE going on than negative with this team and that's why people take issue with lots of overly negative posts at this time.
Is it considered a negative to say we've been down this road before? Remember the 2013 season when the wheels fell off (literally)?
It's like a broken record with this team, except at least the 2013 team was better assembled for win now mode. This upcoming season is like a car salesmen selling you a 2011 limited model but with a carfax showing you multiple car accidents and manufacturer defects and recalls....but it was good in 2011!
I think we all understand the injury risk issues. This team is YOUNGER than the 2012-13 team. This is the tendency to exaggerate that I complain about.
Player Age Player Age
Kurt Thomas 40 Carmelo Anthony 32
Jason Kidd 39 Sasha Vujacic 32
Rasheed Wallace 38 Joakim Noah 31
Marcus Camby 38 Courtney Lee 30
Kenyon Martin 35 Lance Thomas 28
Pablo Prigioni 35 Justin Holiday 27
Tyson Chandler 30 Derrick Rose 27
Amar'e Stoudemire 30 Brandon Jennings 26
James White 30 Mindaugas Kuzminskas 26
Steve Novak 29 Kyle O'Quinn 26
Carmelo Anthony 28 Cleanthony Early 25
Raymond Felton 28 Maurice Daly Ndour 24
Chris Copeland 28 Marshall Plumlee 24
J.R. Smith 27 Chasson Randle 23
Ronnie Brewer 27 Willy Hernangomez 22
Iman Shumpert 22 Kristaps Porzingis 21
Though actual age is younger, the key guys Melo, Rose, Noah, Jennings have advanced basketball age due to AAU, deep NCAA runs, Olympics, playing Internationally(Jennings in Italy), deep NBA playoff runs, coming into the NBA at a much younger age, season ending injuries, rehabbing major injuries, nagging injuries every year, etc. Melo as a 19 year old teenager, both Rose and Jennings as 20 year olds, due to the over 19 rule NBA rule change.
They still have extensive basketball mileage and red flags on their carfax even though their age seems young.
ChuckBuck wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:dk7th wrote:Excellent Post. As much as i hate knick haters there seems to be Another group that is just as bad. Optimism is good but that doesnt mean every move or decision the knicks make is fantastic. Im probably the biggest knick fan out there. I never miss a game and i go to multiple games(even though its expensive) HOWEVER i try to be impartial even if its not 175 percent positive. Unfortunetly that upsets a certain group and you get labeled a hater which is bullcrapknicks1248 wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Im kinda surprised how many Rose threads there are. I know its mostly one person but there are a lot of other things that i think are even more exciting. Obviously KP coming of his great rookie reason is the top thing IMO,hornacek getting another shot,how noah and cortney lee will really improve our defense,jennings, and, the debut of willy. Hell i even miss melo threads.
I already see Rose is going to be the next melo/Amare, the player ya love to hate. If he has a bad game and we lose, he will be the new whipping boythat's assuming people have a WWF mentality where you have to dumb shyt down to good guy/bad guy. some people are actually impartial, even-handed, fair-minded, dispensing critique and praise where warranted.
I hate that double standard. Why does a fan have to be on one side of the fence or another? What's wrong with being critical when 10000% warranted? Some narrow minded fans expect you to drink the Kool Aid, but what if it's been spiked for 16+ years?
There's every single reason in the world to be skeptical of the product on the floor. Until they prove otherwise, let the proof be in the pudding. Thankfully we have a flicker of hope in a 7'3 unicorn on the team, otherwise it'd be even tougher supporting this franchise. Been a fan since the womb and don't intend to jump ship. Ever. Does that make me a bad fan if I'm tough on the Knicks, and they haven't won a title in my lifetime and proceed to rip my heart out year after year?
OK just so we're clear NO ONE has ever said that legit critique can't be made and is made by EVERYONE on this forum. It's simply not true that any of us is ever completely happy with everything going on with this team. However, it's the damn offseason and this team has been remade with better players at key positions. It's a time of typical optimism and hope for a good season. Some have a problem with certain posts being overly negative and nasty towards the team.
IT'S A KNICKS FAN FORUM!!! What do you think most come here for? Most want to talk about legit issues and possibilities for the New Coach and Players. At this early stage it's sometimes a bit much to have some guys post a stream of nothing but negative things. So yes there is a lot of optimism right now and that's to be expected after another busy offseason and new upgrades. No one is saying the team is perfect and will not have any issues this season. However, there is MORE POSITIVE going on than negative with this team and that's why people take issue with lots of overly negative posts at this time.
Is it considered a negative to say we've been down this road before? Remember the 2013 season when the wheels fell off (literally)?
It's like a broken record with this team, except at least the 2013 team was better assembled for win now mode. This upcoming season is like a car salesmen selling you a 2011 limited model but with a carfax showing you multiple car accidents and manufacturer defects and recalls....but it was good in 2011!
I think we all understand the injury risk issues. This team is YOUNGER than the 2012-13 team. This is the tendency to exaggerate that I complain about.
Player Age Player Age
Kurt Thomas 40 Carmelo Anthony 32
Jason Kidd 39 Sasha Vujacic 32
Rasheed Wallace 38 Joakim Noah 31
Marcus Camby 38 Courtney Lee 30
Kenyon Martin 35 Lance Thomas 28
Pablo Prigioni 35 Justin Holiday 27
Tyson Chandler 30 Derrick Rose 27
Amar'e Stoudemire 30 Brandon Jennings 26
James White 30 Mindaugas Kuzminskas 26
Steve Novak 29 Kyle O'Quinn 26
Carmelo Anthony 28 Cleanthony Early 25
Raymond Felton 28 Maurice Daly Ndour 24
Chris Copeland 28 Marshall Plumlee 24
J.R. Smith 27 Chasson Randle 23
Ronnie Brewer 27 Willy Hernangomez 22
Iman Shumpert 22 Kristaps Porzingis 21Though actual age is younger, the key guys Melo, Rose, Noah, Jennings have advanced basketball age due to AAU, deep NCAA runs, Olympics, playing Internationally(Jennings in Italy), deep NBA playoff runs, coming into the NBA at a much younger age, season ending injuries, rehabbing major injuries, nagging injuries every year, etc. Melo as a 19 year old teenager, both Rose and Jennings as 20 year olds, due to the over 19 rule NBA rule change.
They still have extensive basketball mileage and red flags on their carfax even though their age seems young.
that's an excellent point. they aren't fully grown but the usa conveyor belt exploitation basketball factory ensures that their bodies take the punishment so the tires are bald by 27-28. walt frazier played 13 nba seasons and 4 college seasons and retired at the age of 34-- and his last two seasons don't really count. melo has already played 13 nba seasons.
ChuckBuck wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:dk7th wrote:Excellent Post. As much as i hate knick haters there seems to be Another group that is just as bad. Optimism is good but that doesnt mean every move or decision the knicks make is fantastic. Im probably the biggest knick fan out there. I never miss a game and i go to multiple games(even though its expensive) HOWEVER i try to be impartial even if its not 175 percent positive. Unfortunetly that upsets a certain group and you get labeled a hater which is bullcrapknicks1248 wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Im kinda surprised how many Rose threads there are. I know its mostly one person but there are a lot of other things that i think are even more exciting. Obviously KP coming of his great rookie reason is the top thing IMO,hornacek getting another shot,how noah and cortney lee will really improve our defense,jennings, and, the debut of willy. Hell i even miss melo threads.
I already see Rose is going to be the next melo/Amare, the player ya love to hate. If he has a bad game and we lose, he will be the new whipping boythat's assuming people have a WWF mentality where you have to dumb shyt down to good guy/bad guy. some people are actually impartial, even-handed, fair-minded, dispensing critique and praise where warranted.
I hate that double standard. Why does a fan have to be on one side of the fence or another? What's wrong with being critical when 10000% warranted? Some narrow minded fans expect you to drink the Kool Aid, but what if it's been spiked for 16+ years?
There's every single reason in the world to be skeptical of the product on the floor. Until they prove otherwise, let the proof be in the pudding. Thankfully we have a flicker of hope in a 7'3 unicorn on the team, otherwise it'd be even tougher supporting this franchise. Been a fan since the womb and don't intend to jump ship. Ever. Does that make me a bad fan if I'm tough on the Knicks, and they haven't won a title in my lifetime and proceed to rip my heart out year after year?
OK just so we're clear NO ONE has ever said that legit critique can't be made and is made by EVERYONE on this forum. It's simply not true that any of us is ever completely happy with everything going on with this team. However, it's the damn offseason and this team has been remade with better players at key positions. It's a time of typical optimism and hope for a good season. Some have a problem with certain posts being overly negative and nasty towards the team.
IT'S A KNICKS FAN FORUM!!! What do you think most come here for? Most want to talk about legit issues and possibilities for the New Coach and Players. At this early stage it's sometimes a bit much to have some guys post a stream of nothing but negative things. So yes there is a lot of optimism right now and that's to be expected after another busy offseason and new upgrades. No one is saying the team is perfect and will not have any issues this season. However, there is MORE POSITIVE going on than negative with this team and that's why people take issue with lots of overly negative posts at this time.
Is it considered a negative to say we've been down this road before? Remember the 2013 season when the wheels fell off (literally)?
It's like a broken record with this team, except at least the 2013 team was better assembled for win now mode. This upcoming season is like a car salesmen selling you a 2011 limited model but with a carfax showing you multiple car accidents and manufacturer defects and recalls....but it was good in 2011!
I think we all understand the injury risk issues. This team is YOUNGER than the 2012-13 team. This is the tendency to exaggerate that I complain about.
Player Age Player Age
Kurt Thomas 40 Carmelo Anthony 32
Jason Kidd 39 Sasha Vujacic 32
Rasheed Wallace 38 Joakim Noah 31
Marcus Camby 38 Courtney Lee 30
Kenyon Martin 35 Lance Thomas 28
Pablo Prigioni 35 Justin Holiday 27
Tyson Chandler 30 Derrick Rose 27
Amar'e Stoudemire 30 Brandon Jennings 26
James White 30 Mindaugas Kuzminskas 26
Steve Novak 29 Kyle O'Quinn 26
Carmelo Anthony 28 Cleanthony Early 25
Raymond Felton 28 Maurice Daly Ndour 24
Chris Copeland 28 Marshall Plumlee 24
J.R. Smith 27 Chasson Randle 23
Ronnie Brewer 27 Willy Hernangomez 22
Iman Shumpert 22 Kristaps Porzingis 21Though actual age is younger, the key guys Melo, Rose, Noah, Jennings have advanced basketball age due to AAU, deep NCAA runs, Olympics, playing Internationally(Jennings in Italy), deep NBA playoff runs, coming into the NBA at a much younger age, season ending injuries, rehabbing major injuries, nagging injuries every year, etc. Melo as a 19 year old teenager, both Rose and Jennings as 20 year olds, due to the over 19 rule NBA rule change.
They still have extensive basketball mileage and red flags on their carfax even though their age seems young.
ALL NBA players that have played starter minutes for more than 5 years are gonna have mileage on them. Rose hasn't actually played a lot of basketball the last 3 years. He's gradually increased his games played which is a good sign. I think he's getting used to his current physical level and has been adapting to his new reality. That can take time for any player.
Noah and Melo are still good enough to get it done without the same level of athletic ability. They have skills that are still elite. Noah as a passer and rebounder and Melo as a scorer. They don't have to kill themselves in order to be effective. The younger players will be the ones playing a more athletic and physical style of ball.
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
arkrud wrote:nixluva wrote:There has been a lot of talk about what DRose can't do. I thought it would be nice to look at what he can bring to the Knicks when they need it most. The Knicks have been literally skewered by opposing PG's. This was a major reason this team lost a lot of close games over the last couple of season if not more. The addition of Rose helps to even that out for this team.Rose can still score with the best of them, too, especially against top competition. In the seven games against last year’s Eastern Conference All-Star point guards – Kyle Lowry, John Wall and Isaiah Thomas – he averaged 20 points per game on 50 percent shooting from the field (58-of-116).He also dropped 29 points on 12-of-22 shooting against Stephen Curry, 28 points and seven assists on 11-of-19 shooting against Kyrie Irving, and 29 points, six assists and five rebounds on 12-of-25 shooting against Russell Westbrook.
As Rose can attest, guards like to show out against New York. But with Rose, the Knicks have an explosive guard who can return the favor.
Another part of the equation is having Brandon Jennings behind Rose.
However, he won’t have to carry the scoring load all on his shoulders. There’s no pressure for him to step in and completely take over because of the assets he has around him. Rose will most likely be a second or third option behind Anthony and, possibly, Porzingis.http://dailyknicks.com/2016/07/22/derric...With the addition of Brandon Jennings, he’ll have a viable backup that’ll allow him to rest without worry.
Rose ranked 15th in minutes per game among all qualifying point guards. Those minutes won’t increase next season with Jennings in the fold, which means he’ll be rested and fresh for the fourth quarter.
I think the addition of Jennings does help a TON in being able to keep Rose fresh in games and over the course of the season.
I'm very curious about Chasson Randle. He's a very similar PG to both Rose and Jennings but with much better 3pt shooting. If he can make the team and also get into the Rotation, I think this would be the best this team has been at PG in a LONG time.
What were the numbers for top point guards against Rose in the same game?
I do not concern with his offense but more with his defense, passing, and durability.
We have one year with him to find out so not a big deal ether way.
I'll give Phil a bit more credit. Don't think his experience brought him to add Rose because of his defense. Next we are all going to question Noah's offensive numbers?
HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
LOL
I like high volume shooters especially if they shoot it and a good rate like ... for example pretty much everyone on GS including mr D
I never started any threads about shorts ... I could care less. I do care a lot about numbers and sorry to say but the NBA teams are no longer just stupid fans relying solely on the eye test. All teams demand efficiency ... well maybe besides us (pre JH)
mreinman wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
LOL
I like high volume shooters especially if they shoot it and a good rate like ... for example pretty much everyone on GS including mr D
I never started any threads about shorts ... I could care less. I do care a lot about numbers and sorry to say but the NBA teams are no longer just stupid fans relying solely on the eye test. All teams demand efficiency ... well maybe besides us (pre JH)
So if a player gives defenders fits, breaks down a defense and is clearly the most athletic player on the floor, he should be passed over for the high efficiency guy who takes 10 shots a game and is a mediocre talent? I understand the stats narrowing a players true value but you can't honestly be arguing that physical athletic ability and how a player takes over a game is not important. But are we arguing about Rose replacing Jose? Or finally adding an explosive PG who happens to be a former MVP? Specially after enduring the likes of Felton, Calderon, Old Kidd and other non factors. And don't think higher efficiency guys like a DJ Augustine or Bayless type would have made us any better. IMO Rose, if healthy, gives us a chance to get out of mediocre.
HofstraBBall wrote:mreinman wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
LOL
I like high volume shooters especially if they shoot it and a good rate like ... for example pretty much everyone on GS including mr D
I never started any threads about shorts ... I could care less. I do care a lot about numbers and sorry to say but the NBA teams are no longer just stupid fans relying solely on the eye test. All teams demand efficiency ... well maybe besides us (pre JH)
So if a player gives defenders fits, breaks down a defense and is clearly the most athletic player on the floor, he should be passed over for the high efficiency guy who takes 10 shots a game and is a mediocre talent? I understand the stats narrowing a players true value but you can't honestly be arguing that physical athletic ability and how a player takes over a game is not important. But are we arguing about Rose replacing Jose? Or finally adding an explosive PG who happens to be a former MVP? Specially after enduring the likes of Felton, Calderon, Old Kidd and other non factors. And don't think higher efficiency guys like a DJ Augustine or Bayless type would have made us any better. IMO Rose, if healthy, gives us a chance to get out of mediocre.
being super athletic and giving your defender fits is pretty worthless if possessions mostly end in a bad shot or too many misses.
You ok with the Rose that played last year if that is what we get?
mreinman wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:mreinman wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
LOL
I like high volume shooters especially if they shoot it and a good rate like ... for example pretty much everyone on GS including mr D
I never started any threads about shorts ... I could care less. I do care a lot about numbers and sorry to say but the NBA teams are no longer just stupid fans relying solely on the eye test. All teams demand efficiency ... well maybe besides us (pre JH)
So if a player gives defenders fits, breaks down a defense and is clearly the most athletic player on the floor, he should be passed over for the high efficiency guy who takes 10 shots a game and is a mediocre talent? I understand the stats narrowing a players true value but you can't honestly be arguing that physical athletic ability and how a player takes over a game is not important. But are we arguing about Rose replacing Jose? Or finally adding an explosive PG who happens to be a former MVP? Specially after enduring the likes of Felton, Calderon, Old Kidd and other non factors. And don't think higher efficiency guys like a DJ Augustine or Bayless type would have made us any better. IMO Rose, if healthy, gives us a chance to get out of mediocre.
being super athletic and giving your defender fits is pretty worthless if possessions mostly end in a bad shot or too many misses.
You ok with the Rose that played last year if that is what we get?
You're still assuming that Efficiency is all powerful. Sometimes Production and Impact are more important. Just remember that teams aren't just LETTING Rose drive to the basket. He's going against defenses that are preparing for him. So teams are doing everything they can to make things difficult for him to get into the paint. We needed penetration desperately last season. Just passing the ball aimlessly on the perimeter doesn't get it done. Rose gives the team a more aggressive posture.
Also another thing about the efficiency issue. Rose was actually fairly efficient in a lot of what he does. Not being a good 3pt shooter and not getting to the line enough is what hurt him the most. That in and of itself doesn't automatically mean it's going to be detrimental to the team. HOW Rose pushes the ball and helps get the team into early offense will be very important too.
From NBA Sports Vu stats:
Rose averaged 8.9 Drives per game at 51.0%
Rose averaged 7 Pull Up Jumpers per game at 44.5%, 0.7 of those Pull Up Jumpers were 3pt shots at 28%, making his eFG% on Pull Up Jumpers 45.9% which looks terrible but you have to keep in perspective that those 3pt shots are keeping his eFG% down. He doesn't take a lot of Pull Up 3pt shots tho, less than one per game.
Rose averaged 1.7 Catch and Shoot Jumpers per game at 33.6% of those 1.5 were from 3pt range at 33.0%, making his eFG% 48.3% on Catch and Shoot Jumpers.
Also Rose was an active PnR Ball Handler, which we will need in Hornacek's offense.
Pick And Roll Ball Handler
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/pl...
FT Score And One SF TO
Player Team GP Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% Freq Freq Freq Freq Freq Percentile
Reggie Jackson DET 79 896 55.9% 0.88 785 318 715 44.5 47.6 7.9% 14.2% 7.3% 2.0% 41.3% 77.2
Damian Lillard POR 75 815 43.0% 0.92 751 259 628 41.2 47.8 11.4% 13.6% 9.6% 2.3% 40.9% 84.8
Kemba Walker CHA 81 789 46.7% 0.89 705 261 629 41.5 46.2 10.1% 10.9% 8.4% 0.9% 41.8% 80.7
Chris Paul LAC 74 749 51.9% 0.94 705 284 604 47.0 50.3 7.7% 12.6% 3.9% 0.9% 44.5% 89.0
Russ Westbrook OKC 80 722 35.4% 0.85 614 219 502 43.6 47.7 12.7% 19.9% 10.7% 2.2% 40.6% 70.7
John Wall WAS 77 721 40.2% 0.73 524 225 560 40.2 42.3 5.0% 17.9% 4.4% 0.7% 35.4% 38.3
CJ McCollum POR 80 642 37.4% 0.92 593 243 521 46.6 50.4 6.7% 13.7% 5.9% 1.6% 43.0% 85.5
Jrue Holiday NOP 65 618 51.7% 0.87 536 213 501 42.5 45.6 8.3% 12.6% 7.1% 1.9% 40.8% 75.2
James Harden HOU 82 606 25.9% 0.97 588 165 370 44.6 49.2 20.0% 21.5% 17.7% 2.6% 44.6% 91.4
DeMar DeRozan TOR 78 593 32.4% 0.99 588 214 445 48.1 48.3 17.0% 10.8% 15.3% 3.0% 49.7% 92.8
Kyle Lowry TOR 77 582 35.7% 0.86 502 171 423 40.4 46.0 12.5% 16.2% 10.8% 1.4% 40.2% 73.8
Isaiah Thomas BOS 82 568 31.0% 0.86 487 159 412 38.6 42.6 14.4% 14.6% 10.2% 1.6% 40.8% 72.8
Dennis Schroder ATL 80 568 54.4% 0.71 403 158 417 37.9 39.9 8.6% 19.4% 6.9% 1.4% 34.9% 34.8
Derrick Rose CHI 66 563 43.5% 0.84 474 207 466 44.4 44.8 7.6% 12.3% 7.3% 2.7% 41.4% 68.3
So Rose Drives at a high rate. Runs PnR at a good rate. Is reasonably efficient on his Pull Up Jumpers most of which are from 2pt range. What Rose needs to do is increase the amount of Catch and Shoot 3pt shots and improve his 3pt shooting on Catch and shoot from 33% to about 36%, which IMO is very doable. He did improve in this area after the All Star Break last year.
mreinman wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:mreinman wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
LOL
I like high volume shooters especially if they shoot it and a good rate like ... for example pretty much everyone on GS including mr D
I never started any threads about shorts ... I could care less. I do care a lot about numbers and sorry to say but the NBA teams are no longer just stupid fans relying solely on the eye test. All teams demand efficiency ... well maybe besides us (pre JH)
So if a player gives defenders fits, breaks down a defense and is clearly the most athletic player on the floor, he should be passed over for the high efficiency guy who takes 10 shots a game and is a mediocre talent? I understand the stats narrowing a players true value but you can't honestly be arguing that physical athletic ability and how a player takes over a game is not important. But are we arguing about Rose replacing Jose? Or finally adding an explosive PG who happens to be a former MVP? Specially after enduring the likes of Felton, Calderon, Old Kidd and other non factors. And don't think higher efficiency guys like a DJ Augustine or Bayless type would have made us any better. IMO Rose, if healthy, gives us a chance to get out of mediocre.
being super athletic and giving your defender fits is pretty worthless if possessions mostly end in a bad shot or too many misses.
You ok with the Rose that played last year if that is what we get?
Rose was definately not worthless last year. Finished quite well. Believe he will only be stronger this year. And yes, would even be okay with how he played last year. Anything is better than our beloved Jose. Think Rose will surprise you.
HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
The idea of getting rid of players is a good one but that does not automatically mean an upgrade ensues. We have discussed that his value, according to certain resources, is at the level of a replacement player. In other words the trade might not be a upgrade nonetheless.
dk7th wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
The idea of getting rid of players is a good one but that does not automatically mean an upgrade ensues. We have discussed that his value, according to certain resources, is at the level of a replacement player. In other words the trade might not be a upgrade nonetheless.
Yes if you take Rose's entire season stats which were impacted by the slow start after his Orbital Fracture Surgery, then of course he looks like a much worse player. The thing is that isn't who the Knicks are getting. They most likely going to get a much better version of Rose. As he improved after he got healthier Rose started to show what his true level of play can be. That's the problem with only looking at things in a vacuum. Taking all the factors into consideration makes for a better analysis than just the pure numbers.
HofstraBBall wrote:mreinman wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
LOL
I like high volume shooters especially if they shoot it and a good rate like ... for example pretty much everyone on GS including mr D
I never started any threads about shorts ... I could care less. I do care a lot about numbers and sorry to say but the NBA teams are no longer just stupid fans relying solely on the eye test. All teams demand efficiency ... well maybe besides us (pre JH)
So if a player gives defenders fits, breaks down a defense and is clearly the most athletic player on the floor, he should be passed over for the high efficiency guy who takes 10 shots a game and is a mediocre talent? I understand the stats narrowing a players true value but you can't honestly be arguing that physical athletic ability and how a player takes over a game is not important. But are we arguing about Rose replacing Jose? Or finally adding an explosive PG who happens to be a former MVP? Specially after enduring the likes of Felton, Calderon, Old Kidd and other non factors. And don't think higher efficiency guys like a DJ Augustine or Bayless type would have made us any better. IMO Rose, if healthy, gives us a chance to get out of mediocre.
It has to be a mix of athleticism, savvy, and skill. Rose has yet to achieve that balance. If he is to have a future as a Knick then he HAS TO achieve that balance THIS SEASON.
nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
The idea of getting rid of players is a good one but that does not automatically mean an upgrade ensues. We have discussed that his value, according to certain resources, is at the level of a replacement player. In other words the trade might not be a upgrade nonetheless.
Yes if you take Rose's entire season stats which were impacted by the slow start after his Orbital Fracture Surgery, then of course he looks like a much worse player. The thing is that isn't who the Knicks are getting. They most likely going to get a much better version of Rose. As he improved after he got healthier Rose started to show what his true level of play can be. That's the problem with only looking at things in a vacuum. Taking all the factors into consideration makes for a better analysis than just the pure numbers.
and if you take Jerian grants stats when he starts he is clearly the best guard in the NBA at driving to the basket and producing points.
dk7th wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
The idea of getting rid of players is a good one but that does not automatically mean an upgrade ensues. We have discussed that his value, according to certain resources, is at the level of a replacement player. In other words the trade might not be a upgrade nonetheless.
Think it's a matter of opinion. One that can't be proven until the season is underway. I'm going on optimism and a believe that he is a talented player that has been dismissed due to injuries. Your going on the numbers he put up during years he was not healthy. Which no one is saying were MVP type years. However, he is still young and showed last year he was getting stronger not weaker. Not a far stretch to think he would continue to improve and be a big contributor this year. And I disagree, if he stays healthy, he will be a huge upgrade.
mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
The idea of getting rid of players is a good one but that does not automatically mean an upgrade ensues. We have discussed that his value, according to certain resources, is at the level of a replacement player. In other words the trade might not be a upgrade nonetheless.
Yes if you take Rose's entire season stats which were impacted by the slow start after his Orbital Fracture Surgery, then of course he looks like a much worse player. The thing is that isn't who the Knicks are getting. They most likely going to get a much better version of Rose. As he improved after he got healthier Rose started to show what his true level of play can be. That's the problem with only looking at things in a vacuum. Taking all the factors into consideration makes for a better analysis than just the pure numbers.and if you take Jerian grants stats when he starts he is clearly the best guard in the NBA at driving to the basket and producing points.
Maybe Jerian is. Thing is he's only got his rookie season, a handful of starts and has NEVER proven he was that kind of player over an entire season. See at least we know Rose has that kind of talent, so it's not some shocking thing to see that he was able to raise his level of play up to closer to what he's been in the past. Rose did in fact get better as the season moved along and he got healthier and his game back up to form. To compare him to some cherry picked rookie stat that Jerian had is totally disingenuous. No one is laughing at your joke.
You want us to believe that Rose can't play well anymore, when we know that he can. You want us to totally forget that he had the Orbital Surgery and that it effected his game early in the season. You don't like the Rose deal and this helps to feed your narrative. When you look at his last season you can see how he struggled early and then started to get his game going.
DATE MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS GP
October 32.0 5.7-15.3 .370 0.0-1.3 .000 2.3-3.0 .778 1.7 4.7 0.0 0.7 1.7 3.0 13.7 3
November 32.7 5.4-15.3 .353 0.6-2.6 .231 1.9-2.4 .792 3.9 6.3 0.5 0.6 1.3 2.3 13.3 10
December 32.9 6.4-15.4 .414 0.7-2.5 .286 1.9-2.8 .667 3.3 4.4 0.2 0.6 1.6 2.7 15.3 14
January 30.4 7.4-15.7 .471 0.5-1.8 .292 2.3-2.4 .968 3.2 3.3 0.2 0.5 1.5 2.5 17.6 13
February 33.1 8.5-19.4 .439 0.8-2.4 .316 4.1-4.9 .846 5.6 6.0 0.1 0.9 1.6 3.3 21.9 8
March 30.0 7.1-15.3 .461 1.0-2.5 .405 1.5-2.1 .710 2.6 4.5 0.1 0.7 0.7 2.5 16.6 15
April 34.3 5.7-15.0 .378 0.0-1.7 .000 1.7-2.0 .833 3.3 4.7 0.0 1.0 0.3 3.0 13.0 3
Rose has to play better to be sure and hopefully that can happen in NY with a very solid supporting cast. He won't have to feel he needs to carry the team. Just take advantage of the talent around him and it should make the game easier for him and he should make things a bit easier for them.
HofstraBBall wrote:dk7th wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:does this mean that he was even more disgustingly abysmal against non top 7 PG's?hhhhmmm thats alarming.
Yeah that's right keep pretending that Rose didn't have a poor start due to his Orbital Surgery. You are really something. Keep pretending Rose didn't show improvement as the season moved along. What we're all hoping for is Rose being in the best shape in years and with his best skill level in years.
Your talking to a guy that is stuck in the middle ages of basketball. He started several threads on why players shorts are too big and loose nowadays. Wishes they were nice and tight like in the 70's. Lol Mreinman does not like high volume shooters. Probably hates teams like Golden State and their "New school shot selection". He only values players that do what he can do....set great picks!
The trash people keep talking about Rose is ridiculous. Rose, if healthy, makes any team better. Cant believe people are complaining that we replaced Jose and Grant. Or that we did not sign someone else, because there were so many elite point guards looking to come here. Im happy that opposing point guards will no longer feast on our horrid back court of JC and JG. And that we will have several elite scorers that opposing defenses will have to contend with.
The idea of getting rid of players is a good one but that does not automatically mean an upgrade ensues. We have discussed that his value, according to certain resources, is at the level of a replacement player. In other words the trade might not be a upgrade nonetheless.
Think it's a matter of opinion. One that can't be proven until the season is underway. I'm going on optimism and a believe that he is a talented player that has been dismissed due to injuries. Your going on the numbers he put up during years he was not healthy. Which no one is saying were MVP type years. However, he is still young and showed last year he was getting stronger not weaker. Not a far stretch to think he would continue to improve and be a big contributor this year. And I disagree, if he stays healthy, he will be a huge upgrade.
i don't have an issue with optimism just as long as it is tempered by other points that prevent the optimism from being blind:
http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/24...
https://www.betlabssports.com/blog/does-...
https://theringer.com/new-york-knicks-de...
http://national.suntimes.com/nba/7/72/23...
yes he has been a talented player but when a talented player, relying on athletic ability more than skills loses that athleticism, expectations have to be managed and yes, games have to evolve, hopefully for the greater good of the team.
is it your opinion that his athleticism has not been diminished? to me he is an upgrade but not a huge one-- wait until you see him play defense night after night-- and whatever upgrade he is will be in direct proportion with how he tempers his game.
we need to see a rose that is not going to merely play *alongside* others, but hopefully *with* others if not ideally *for* others. this is the crux of the matter for me. that, and how much of his civil suit nonsense infects the season.
The Reason it can be good for Rose is that it simplifies the read. It's just him and a big on a wide open side of the floor. He can use his speed to attack the basket and he's able to see the defenders coming to help and where his teammates as set up on the perimeter open for shots. Lee, Melo and KP would be in position to catch and shoot or cut to receive a dump off. This isn't rocket science. It should work with this group of players.
Post All Star Break
Catch Catch Pull Pull Paint Paint Post Post Elbow Elbow
Drive Drive Shoot Shoot Up Up Touch Touch Touch Touch Touch Touch
Player Team GP MIN PTS PTS FG% PTS FG% PTS FG% PTS FG% PTS FG% PTS FG% eFG%
Damian Lillard POR 28 35.0 26.3 9.1 51.5 3.1 36.1 8.4 35.3 0.3 75.0 0.4 83.3 0.1 14.3 50.5
Isaiah Thomas BOS 27 31.8 23.6 8.9 46.4 3.3 34.9 4.7 35.0 0.3 33.3 0.2 40.0 0.3 22.2 49.9
Reggie Jackson DET 26 30.1 18.3 7.1 48.9 2.2 36.5 5.6 36.8 0.2 66.7 0.1 50.0 0.2 42.9 46.6
Jeff Teague ATL 27 28.5 16.8 6.7 49.7 2.3 47.7 4.4 35.1 0.2 100 0.3 50.0 0.2 42.9 51.7
Kyrie Irving CLE 27 33.1 20.3 6.6 49.7 3.6 42.0 6.4 38.0 0.3 100 0.3 100 0.3 27.3 48.9
Dwyane Wade MIA 24 31.1 19.7 6.5 46.8 0.6 29.2 4.8 37.5 1.1 48.0 1.7 56.3 1.3 43.5 45.3
Stephen Curry GSW 29 34.8 30.6 6.4 63.2 6.7 47.5 11.6 41.7 1.4 58.6 1.6 63.3 0.4 35.7 62.5
Russell Westbrook OKC 26 34.5 22.2 6.3 48.1 1.3 35.3 6.9 37.0 0.2 50.0 0.3 50.0 0.2 22.2 48.8
Lance Stephenson MEM 26 26.6 14.2 6.1 53.3 0.6 25.0 3.6 40.0 0.9 66.7 1.0 66.7 0.3 33.3 49.2
Derrick Rose CHI 21 30.9 17.4 6.0 54.5 2.3 40.5 6.4 44.5 0.3 27.3 0.5 35.7 0.1 25.0 49.5
Kemba Walker CHA 29 35.3 21.5 6.0 52.4 3.9 42.9 7.3 35.9 0.1 50.0 0.1 50.0 0.1 50.0 52.4
Ish Smith PHI 29 33.3 14.2 5.7 50.7 2.1 40.8 3.9 31.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.2 75.0 46.7
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/...
Also have to add that Brandon Jennings has been a HUGE impact off the bench. It's not normal for us to have 2 starting caliber PG's like this. It's been a LONG time since we've had that and boy does it feel good. Both Rose and BJ have the aggressive approach that we need to win games. The improved quickness is a major factor for this team and helps KP, Melo etc to get great looks more often.