CrushAlot wrote:This needed its own thread? Wasn't the game thread spammed enough last night with the Jennings/Rose critique. Jennings looked really bad. Rose looks healthy, really fast and rusty.
This is the closest to being right he's been in a few years. Cmon... let the dude just run with it and have his moment.
knicks1248 wrote:Like evey scoring pg in the league, they hate the triangle and can not thrive in it period. No pg in the league would act more than 3 assist pg in the triangle. I want rose to have a balance, some games he may shoot 18 times, I'm ok with that, just not every game. He has to do that to put pressure on opposing guards, wear them out, make them wrk, we pitched about calerdon never shooting,and putting no kind if pressure in defense, no your complaint rose is shooting to much in a pg driven league..
Cmon dk,you know better
he and jennings are not even being asked to run the triangle: hornaceks "tweaking" is meant to accommodate rose's and jennings's alleged strengths, which is pushing the ball to create transition baskets and semi-breaks. but if they don't do that well either then you have a major clusterfuck.
the larger issue is how the devil is hornacek going to create a hybridized triangle. i don't see how you can sit between two stools.
knicks1248 wrote:Moonangie wrote:earthmansurfer wrote:I am a bit concerned that Rose is going to take more shots than KP. There is really zero reason for that - for both health and contract reasons.
I say he has a year to show he can be a real PG. We simply don't need to rely on him heavily (regularly) for scoring. We have Melo and KP and I'd
really like to see both Rose and Jennings, focus on getting the team going. I have hope for Jennings, Rose has been what he is for a while now...
To the extent that Rose's driving/penetration opens looks for KP+Melo, he should do it, not with an inclination to stuff his stats for next contract, but with the clear plan to improve team scoring overall. Whatever points he puts down are still a contributing factor to wins, so we'll take it. Last night he had a lot of layup miss turnovers, which is not acceptable. He also did not seem intent to distribute the ball much, also unacceptable, although possibly a facet of missing pre-season.
You guys are absolutely contradicting yourselves because you complain the Lee, lance,melo, Jennings were missing wide open shots, and then say Rose shot too much. So basically you want him to pass to players that are brickin shots, then wonder why he had 1 assist.
Scorers stop passing when there teammates brick shots. It's ok for kyrie to toast us for 30 points, but rose should pass more..smdh
his usage last night was an unconscionable 31.2% and a teenie-weenie assist percentage 7.9%. it means he was not distributing the ball at all and was essentially a black hole. and when he does pass the ball it is mostly after he has left his feet, which is a huge mistake, because you cannot pass the ball to a shooter with timing, touch, and location to hit a shooter in rhythm. bad passes drive down shooting percentages.
earthmansurfer wrote:I am a bit concerned that Rose is going to take more shots than KP. There is really zero reason for that - for both health and contract reasons.
I say he has a year to show he can be a real PG. We simply don't need to rely on him heavily (regularly) for scoring. We have Melo and KP and I'd
really like to see both Rose and Jennings, focus on getting the team going. I have hope for Jennings, Rose has been what he is for a while now...
i have said for months on end now that rose cannot be taking more shots than kp6. that's a recipe for underachievement if not outright disaster. last night is just a continuation of a pattern that rose has established for most of his career. it's a very bad sign, butterflies notwithstanding. is he coachable? can hornacek get him to tighten up is game and get more fundamentally sound? doubtful!
Rose looked quick and in good physical shape. Jennings too. This is a good thing. This was not a given, Rose could easily have looked slow or gimpy. Nobody would have been shocked.
Both were rusty (not finishing open layups, losing the handle easily) and not working within a good team concept. The whole team pretty much looked that way, as they were totally outclassed by a champion team that looked super cohesive, efficient, faster and stronger than the Knicks. The Knick playmaking was not there. Decision making was shaky and ineffective. All true.
Sure, if Rose plays every game this season like that one, then it'll be a total disaster. But why are we supposed to assume that last night's performance is the end product with this team? It's the first game with these players together after Rose missed the preseason. You were expecting them to be fluid out of the gate with no practice or reps? You could at least wait a few games before declaring unmitigated, unavoidable failure for the Rose era.
dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Moonangie wrote:earthmansurfer wrote:I am a bit concerned that Rose is going to take more shots than KP. There is really zero reason for that - for both health and contract reasons.
I say he has a year to show he can be a real PG. We simply don't need to rely on him heavily (regularly) for scoring. We have Melo and KP and I'd
really like to see both Rose and Jennings, focus on getting the team going. I have hope for Jennings, Rose has been what he is for a while now...
To the extent that Rose's driving/penetration opens looks for KP+Melo, he should do it, not with an inclination to stuff his stats for next contract, but with the clear plan to improve team scoring overall. Whatever points he puts down are still a contributing factor to wins, so we'll take it. Last night he had a lot of layup miss turnovers, which is not acceptable. He also did not seem intent to distribute the ball much, also unacceptable, although possibly a facet of missing pre-season.
You guys are absolutely contradicting yourselves because you complain the Lee, lance,melo, Jennings were missing wide open shots, and then say Rose shot too much. So basically you want him to pass to players that are brickin shots, then wonder why he had 1 assist.
Scorers stop passing when there teammates brick shots. It's ok for kyrie to toast us for 30 points, but rose should pass more..smdh
his usage last night was an unconscionable 31.2% and a teenie-weenie assist percentage 7.9%. it means he was not distributing the ball at all and was essentially a black hole. and when he does pass the ball it is mostly after he has left his feet, which is a huge mistake, because you cannot pass the ball to a shooter with timing, touch, and location to hit a shooter in rhythm. bad passes drive down shooting percentages.
He was brutal and didnt defend at all either
dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Like evey scoring pg in the league, they hate the triangle and can not thrive in it period. No pg in the league would act more than 3 assist pg in the triangle. I want rose to have a balance, some games he may shoot 18 times, I'm ok with that, just not every game. He has to do that to put pressure on opposing guards, wear them out, make them wrk, we pitched about calerdon never shooting,and putting no kind if pressure in defense, no your complaint rose is shooting to much in a pg driven league..
Cmon dk,you know better
he and jennings are not even being asked to run the triangle: hornaceks "tweaking" is meant to accommodate rose's and jennings's alleged strengths, which is pushing the ball to create transition baskets and semi-breaks. but if they don't do that well either then you have a major clusterfuck.
the larger issue is how the devil is hornacek going to create a hybridized triangle. i don't see how you can sit between two stools.
Whenever Rose or Jennings took a shot, it was because no one was either running with them, no PnR, or the started the triangle, and somewhere along the line everyone stood still, forcing yet, another mid range jumper or contested layup.
This offense is very bad if more than 10 to 12 seconds run off the shot clock in any possession. Those guards have to play fast,
knicks1248 wrote:dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Like evey scoring pg in the league, they hate the triangle and can not thrive in it period. No pg in the league would act more than 3 assist pg in the triangle. I want rose to have a balance, some games he may shoot 18 times, I'm ok with that, just not every game. He has to do that to put pressure on opposing guards, wear them out, make them wrk, we pitched about calerdon never shooting,and putting no kind if pressure in defense, no your complaint rose is shooting to much in a pg driven league..
Cmon dk,you know better
he and jennings are not even being asked to run the triangle: hornaceks "tweaking" is meant to accommodate rose's and jennings's alleged strengths, which is pushing the ball to create transition baskets and semi-breaks. but if they don't do that well either then you have a major clusterfuck.
the larger issue is how the devil is hornacek going to create a hybridized triangle. i don't see how you can sit between two stools.
Whenever Rose or Jennings took a shot, it was because no one was either running with them, no PnR, or the started the triangle, and somewhere along the line everyone stood still, forcing yet, another mid range jumper or contested layup.
This offense is very bad if more than 10 to 12 seconds run off the shot clock in any possession. Those guards have to play fast,
see this is where the problem lies: once the break has been cut off, you only have 10-12 seconds to actually get into and run the triangle. only after all the cuts and passes have been made do you resort to pick and roll, and then only as a last resort do you go iso. whatever they were doing last night was not even remotely recognizable as a coherent offense. that is the order in which things have to be-- any sort of "creativity" by "scoring point guards" is basically torpedoing any semblance of triangle offense.
dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Like evey scoring pg in the league, they hate the triangle and can not thrive in it period. No pg in the league would act more than 3 assist pg in the triangle. I want rose to have a balance, some games he may shoot 18 times, I'm ok with that, just not every game. He has to do that to put pressure on opposing guards, wear them out, make them wrk, we pitched about calerdon never shooting,and putting no kind if pressure in defense, no your complaint rose is shooting to much in a pg driven league..
Cmon dk,you know better
he and jennings are not even being asked to run the triangle: hornaceks "tweaking" is meant to accommodate rose's and jennings's alleged strengths, which is pushing the ball to create transition baskets and semi-breaks. but if they don't do that well either then you have a major clusterfuck.
the larger issue is how the devil is hornacek going to create a hybridized triangle. i don't see how you can sit between two stools.
Whenever Rose or Jennings took a shot, it was because no one was either running with them, no PnR, or the started the triangle, and somewhere along the line everyone stood still, forcing yet, another mid range jumper or contested layup.
This offense is very bad if more than 10 to 12 seconds run off the shot clock in any possession. Those guards have to play fast,
see this is where the problem lies: once the break has been cut off, you only have 10-12 seconds to actually get into and run the triangle. only after all the cuts and passes have been made do you resort to pick and roll, and then only as a last resort do you go iso. whatever they were doing last night was not even remotely recognizable as a coherent offense. that is the order in which things have to be-- any sort of "creativity" by "scoring point guards" is basically torpedoing any semblance of triangle offense.
It takes 22 seconds to formulate this version of the triangle, last season we heard countless opponents stated they knew exactly what we where doing. In fact they probably knew better then our own players.
Im' sooooo anti-triangle it isn't even funny, it just takes away form the pg skill set.
knicks1248 wrote:dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Like evey scoring pg in the league, they hate the triangle and can not thrive in it period. No pg in the league would act more than 3 assist pg in the triangle. I want rose to have a balance, some games he may shoot 18 times, I'm ok with that, just not every game. He has to do that to put pressure on opposing guards, wear them out, make them wrk, we pitched about calerdon never shooting,and putting no kind if pressure in defense, no your complaint rose is shooting to much in a pg driven league..
Cmon dk,you know better
he and jennings are not even being asked to run the triangle: hornaceks "tweaking" is meant to accommodate rose's and jennings's alleged strengths, which is pushing the ball to create transition baskets and semi-breaks. but if they don't do that well either then you have a major clusterfuck.
the larger issue is how the devil is hornacek going to create a hybridized triangle. i don't see how you can sit between two stools.
Whenever Rose or Jennings took a shot, it was because no one was either running with them, no PnR, or the started the triangle, and somewhere along the line everyone stood still, forcing yet, another mid range jumper or contested layup.
This offense is very bad if more than 10 to 12 seconds run off the shot clock in any possession. Those guards have to play fast,
see this is where the problem lies: once the break has been cut off, you only have 10-12 seconds to actually get into and run the triangle. only after all the cuts and passes have been made do you resort to pick and roll, and then only as a last resort do you go iso. whatever they were doing last night was not even remotely recognizable as a coherent offense. that is the order in which things have to be-- any sort of "creativity" by "scoring point guards" is basically torpedoing any semblance of triangle offense.
It takes 22 seconds to formulate this version of the triangle, last season we heard countless opponents stated they knew exactly what we where doing. In fact they probably knew better then our own players.
Im' sooooo anti-triangle it isn't even funny, it just takes away form the pg skill set.
if it was predictable then it was not run well, since the whole point of the damned thing is its unpredictability due to ball and player movement. i mean look-- pierce and garnett played the two-man game off the elbows extended at the ends of games with the celtics, everyone knew it was coming, and it was still unstoppable. the same would hold true if the knicks perfected the triangle.
dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Like evey scoring pg in the league, they hate the triangle and can not thrive in it period. No pg in the league would act more than 3 assist pg in the triangle. I want rose to have a balance, some games he may shoot 18 times, I'm ok with that, just not every game. He has to do that to put pressure on opposing guards, wear them out, make them wrk, we pitched about calerdon never shooting,and putting no kind if pressure in defense, no your complaint rose is shooting to much in a pg driven league..
Cmon dk,you know better
he and jennings are not even being asked to run the triangle: hornaceks "tweaking" is meant to accommodate rose's and jennings's alleged strengths, which is pushing the ball to create transition baskets and semi-breaks. but if they don't do that well either then you have a major clusterfuck.
the larger issue is how the devil is hornacek going to create a hybridized triangle. i don't see how you can sit between two stools.
Whenever Rose or Jennings took a shot, it was because no one was either running with them, no PnR, or the started the triangle, and somewhere along the line everyone stood still, forcing yet, another mid range jumper or contested layup.
This offense is very bad if more than 10 to 12 seconds run off the shot clock in any possession. Those guards have to play fast,
see this is where the problem lies: once the break has been cut off, you only have 10-12 seconds to actually get into and run the triangle. only after all the cuts and passes have been made do you resort to pick and roll, and then only as a last resort do you go iso. whatever they were doing last night was not even remotely recognizable as a coherent offense. that is the order in which things have to be-- any sort of "creativity" by "scoring point guards" is basically torpedoing any semblance of triangle offense.
It takes 22 seconds to formulate this version of the triangle, last season we heard countless opponents stated they knew exactly what we where doing. In fact they probably knew better then our own players.
Im' sooooo anti-triangle it isn't even funny, it just takes away form the pg skill set.
if it was predictable then it was not run well, since the whole point of the damned thing is its unpredictability due to ball and player movement. i mean look-- pierce and garnett played the two-man game off the elbows extended at the ends of games with the celtics, everyone knew it was coming, and it was still unstoppable. the same would hold true if the knicks perfected the triangle.
how can You perfect something if you keep flipping majority of the roster yr in, and yr out. Not to mention no one is even remotely enthused about playing in it.
The history of the triangle system hasn't produce one single all star pg, it diminish his skill set to spot up 3's, or a pg who can penetrate, and then think about the 20 options he has on his way to the rim..
A little concerned that in the two games that Rose has played, the team has been blown out and the offense looked worse.
Jennings seems to mesh well with the starters, while Rose so far has not shown the same chemistry. Individually Rose is definitely still effective. May just need more time.
We do have so much more 1 on 1 talent this year versus last year. Rose, KP and Melo all can create their own baskets and like to shoot. Bring in Jennings, another guy that likes to create things. Factor Noah has not played much with the team either, I can see us need some time before we actually look like a team.
Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
you missed his speech about the reason he is sometimes taken for having a condescending tone... its because in "the real world" he is the CEO and used to having everyone answer to him. Classic!
MAAAAA! THE MEATLOAF!!!!
Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.
i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.
dk7th wrote:Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.
i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.
"If that ever happens..." vs "I hope that happens, but if it doesn't..." is revealing. I'm not convinced you would prefer to be proven wrong and see Rose and Jennings succeed and the Knicks win versus see them crash and burn and say "I told you so." That fact that you started this thread
one game into the season is all the proof I need. You couldn't wait to criticize these guys. Great Knicks "fan."
He has an opinion like everyone else. Don't like it, don't read it. No need to attack his projected future behavior.
Welpee wrote:dk7th wrote:Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.
i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.
"If that ever happens..." vs "I hope that happens, but if it doesn't..." is revealing. I'm not convinced you would prefer to be proven wrong and see Rose and Jennings succeed and the Knicks win versus see them crash and burn and say "I told you so." That fact that you started this thread one game into the season is all the proof I need. You couldn't wait to criticize these guys. Great Knicks "fan."
i'd like to be in a wait and see mode with these two, but their history supports pessimism instead. if you want to live in a hopeful attitude that is your prerogative, but know that your hope is in defiance of what the stats and history has shown. but that's just offense. have a look at their defensive rankings. it's sobering:
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_...
you will note that rose is ranked 38th among point guards playing 24 or more minutes a game, ie starters. insofar as there are only 32 teams, he does not deserve to start based on this ranking-- if defense matters in basketball. jennings fares slightly better as a substitute, ranked 23rd in the league for point guards playing less than 24 minutes. so on defense he is not a liability-- for a 23rd ranked team.
dk7th wrote:if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players.
Fair enough.
What's your primary motive?
meloshouldgo wrote:He has an opinion like everyone else. Don't like it, don't read it. No need to attack his projected future behavior.
thanks for that. i appreciate it, meloshouldgo.
