Some guys are really good offensive players and some, all they know is defense. WESTBROOK, CURRY,KD,are not good defenders, but you would take them on your team in a heartbeat beat. Rose was on a top defensive team like Allan Houston, ray allen.
Schemes hide defensive deficiency for certain players, and that up to the coaching staff period.
We had a pass first of in calderon, and he played well below his act. Why is that every player phil gets, plays well below the normal averages..ask yourself that before we start pointing fingers at the players
knicks1248 wrote:So guys are really good offensive players and some, all they know is defense. WESTBROOK, CURRY,ND,are not good defenders, but you would take them on your team in a heartbeat beat. Rose was on a top defensive team like Allan Houston, ray allen.Schemes hide defensive deficiency for certain players, and that up to the coaching staff period.
We had a pass first of in calderon, and he played well below his act. Why is that every player phil gets, plays well below the normal averages..ask yourself that before we start pointing fingers at the players
Well if this continues this would point to rose being the same ol Rose he has been since he got hurt. This is not a physical issue with Rose it is a mental issue, imo. He has the speed, agility, and skill to rank in the top 5 athletes at the PG position but his refusal to pass the ball and play through contact has obliterated his offensive effectiveness. There is no reason why Rose should not be playing the game like Wall and Reggie Jackson to other PGs that lack shooting ability.
knicks1248 wrote:So guys are really good offensive players and some, all they know is defense. WESTBROOK, CURRY,ND,are not good defenders, but you would take them on your team in a heartbeat beat. Rose was on a top defensive team like Allan Houston, ray allen.Schemes hide defensive deficiency for certain players, and that up to the coaching staff period.
We had a pass first of in calderon, and he played well below his act. Why is that every player phil gets, plays well below the normal averages..ask yourself that before we start pointing fingers at the players
as i have said, rose is pretty much putting up the same number of shots with the same usage, and overall the same averages. the very thing that some of you were looking forward to-- melo and rose playing on the same team-- is so far an unmitigated disaster. it's why i have been hammering home the numbers in my signature.
the most important number is 'one,' as in 'one-year contract.'
dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:So guys are really good offensive players and some, all they know is defense. WESTBROOK, CURRY,ND,are not good defenders, but you would take them on your team in a heartbeat beat. Rose was on a top defensive team like Allan Houston, ray allen.Schemes hide defensive deficiency for certain players, and that up to the coaching staff period.
We had a pass first of in calderon, and he played well below his act. Why is that every player phil gets, plays well below the normal averages..ask yourself that before we start pointing fingers at the players
as i have said, rose is pretty much putting up the same number of shots with the same usage, and overall the same averages. the very thing that some of you were looking forward to-- melo and rose playing on the same team-- is so far an unmitigated disaster. it's why i have been hammering home the numbers in my signature.
the most important number is 'one,' as in 'one-year contract.'
so exactly who would you replace Rose with, and please be realistic
What's wrong with this team so far is not really about Rose. Anyone watching the games can see that!!! Do you watch and say we'd be winning if not for Rose??? That's not what I'm seeing at all. Now i'm not saying Rose is playing great team ball cuz he's not at this point, but with this style of offense he's gonna have a reduced impact on the offense. That would change is we went with more PnR and Spread Offense.
knicks1248 wrote:dk7th wrote:GustavBahler wrote:dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:dk7th wrote:it's not too late to right the ship. the solution is simple-- if rose's numbers don't change he needs to be benched for jennings or even baker. THIS IS THE CORE ISSUE WITH THE TEAM. rose has to get kp6 the ball, he has to play with and for others.
so basically we need to change the way we play to make rose more effective right?
The best way to get kp involve is PnR, but that's an absolute no no. Remember in the first preseason game when rose was running PnR with kp, and kp was drilling wide open 3's (even though we still loss by 30) we haven't that play since..
i don't see much triangle being played to begin with-- if i had to guess it's like 15% of all possessions. so i don't understand why this is the issue. how often have you seen it run.
If it werent there at all, Im guessing we would see more PnR.
depends 1. how often rose is pushing the ball and trying to finish, 2. how often he pushes the ball and kicks-- often leaving his feet, and 3. how often melo is going iso. all those types of plays will eat into triangle use, pck an roll, essentially torpedoing the offense. since you can't bench melo, then it has to be rose. they are horrible out there together.
But even when rose and melo are on the bench and kp is still out there( which has happen more often than not), no ones really looking for KP, not jennings, not lance, not KOQ, not Holiday, there all looking for there own shots.
Correct.....and when 80% of the team is new players, the result is quite simple. Every man for themselves. This is when coaches earn their money.
nixluva wrote:What's wrong with this team so far is not really about Rose. Anyone watching the games can see that!!! Do you watch and say we'd be winning if not for Rose??? That's not what I'm seeing at all. Now i'm not saying Rose is playing great team ball cuz he's not at this point, but with this style of offense he's gonna have a reduced impact on the offense. That would change is we went with more PnR and Spread Offense.
He is not playing great team ball or great individual ball. I don't know if the Knicks would definitely be winning without Rose but they'd have a better chance at winning if they had even slightly below avg of play.
knicks1248 wrote:dk7th wrote:knicks1248 wrote:So guys are really good offensive players and some, all they know is defense. WESTBROOK, CURRY,ND,are not good defenders, but you would take them on your team in a heartbeat beat. Rose was on a top defensive team like Allan Houston, ray allen.Schemes hide defensive deficiency for certain players, and that up to the coaching staff period.
We had a pass first of in calderon, and he played well below his act. Why is that every player phil gets, plays well below the normal averages..ask yourself that before we start pointing fingers at the players
as i have said, rose is pretty much putting up the same number of shots with the same usage, and overall the same averages. the very thing that some of you were looking forward to-- melo and rose playing on the same team-- is so far an unmitigated disaster. it's why i have been hammering home the numbers in my signature.
the most important number is 'one,' as in 'one-year contract.'
so exactly who would you replace Rose with, and please be realistic
depends on your goals and time frames and who you try to appease. if you revisit this thread, a thread i may bump anyway, you get a good idea of my ideas.
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...
whether you read the above, i replace rose with jennings and baker.
yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:What's wrong with this team so far is not really about Rose. Anyone watching the games can see that!!! Do you watch and say we'd be winning if not for Rose??? That's not what I'm seeing at all. Now i'm not saying Rose is playing great team ball cuz he's not at this point, but with this style of offense he's gonna have a reduced impact on the offense. That would change is we went with more PnR and Spread Offense.
He is not playing great team ball or great individual ball. I don't know if the Knicks would definitely be winning without Rose but they'd have a better chance at winning if they had even slightly below avg of play.
The point I was trying to make is that running so much Triangle means they aren't running what these guys do best which is PnR. No PG will ball out in a Triangle offense cuz it's not designed to highlight that position. We can't name one great Triangle PG for a reason. You're wasting talent if you don't run plays that fit a player's strengths and that includes KP who also would benefit from more PnR/PnP!!!
nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:What's wrong with this team so far is not really about Rose. Anyone watching the games can see that!!! Do you watch and say we'd be winning if not for Rose??? That's not what I'm seeing at all. Now i'm not saying Rose is playing great team ball cuz he's not at this point, but with this style of offense he's gonna have a reduced impact on the offense. That would change is we went with more PnR and Spread Offense.
He is not playing great team ball or great individual ball. I don't know if the Knicks would definitely be winning without Rose but they'd have a better chance at winning if they had even slightly below avg of play.
The point I was trying to make is that running so much Triangle means they aren't running what these guys do best which is PnR. No PG will ball out in a Triangle offense cuz it's not designed to highlight that position. We can't name one great Triangle PG for a reason. You're wasting talent if you don't run plays that fit a player's strengths and that includes KP who also would benefit from more PnR/PnP!!!
There were plenty one sets the 1st two games and he still had bad games. It might not be a triangle issue for Rose who should be a comfortable with the triangle since he ran so many triangle sets with Thibs. Its early but so far it's been a bad look. I wasn't a fan of his but dang what if Phil just have Shved $3m a year ago? Oh well.
yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:What's wrong with this team so far is not really about Rose. Anyone watching the games can see that!!! Do you watch and say we'd be winning if not for Rose??? That's not what I'm seeing at all. Now i'm not saying Rose is playing great team ball cuz he's not at this point, but with this style of offense he's gonna have a reduced impact on the offense. That would change is we went with more PnR and Spread Offense.
He is not playing great team ball or great individual ball. I don't know if the Knicks would definitely be winning without Rose but they'd have a better chance at winning if they had even slightly below avg of play.
The point I was trying to make is that running so much Triangle means they aren't running what these guys do best which is PnR. No PG will ball out in a Triangle offense cuz it's not designed to highlight that position. We can't name one great Triangle PG for a reason. You're wasting talent if you don't run plays that fit a player's strengths and that includes KP who also would benefit from more PnR/PnP!!!
There were plenty one sets the 1st two games and he still had bad games. It might not be a triangle issue for Rose who should be a comfortable with the triangle since he ran so many triangle sets with Thibs. Its early but so far it's been a bad look. I wasn't a fan of his but dang what if Phil just have Shved $3m a year ago? Oh well.
Yeah, the whole league is killing themselves they let Shved go. Nice one.
HofstraBBall wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:What's wrong with this team so far is not really about Rose. Anyone watching the games can see that!!! Do you watch and say we'd be winning if not for Rose??? That's not what I'm seeing at all. Now i'm not saying Rose is playing great team ball cuz he's not at this point, but with this style of offense he's gonna have a reduced impact on the offense. That would change is we went with more PnR and Spread Offense.
He is not playing great team ball or great individual ball. I don't know if the Knicks would definitely be winning without Rose but they'd have a better chance at winning if they had even slightly below avg of play.
The point I was trying to make is that running so much Triangle means they aren't running what these guys do best which is PnR. No PG will ball out in a Triangle offense cuz it's not designed to highlight that position. We can't name one great Triangle PG for a reason. You're wasting talent if you don't run plays that fit a player's strengths and that includes KP who also would benefit from more PnR/PnP!!!
There were plenty one sets the 1st two games and he still had bad games. It might not be a triangle issue for Rose who should be a comfortable with the triangle since he ran so many triangle sets with Thibs. Its early but so far it's been a bad look. I wasn't a fan of his but dang what if Phil just have Shved $3m a year ago? Oh well.
Yeah, the whole league is killing themselves they let Shved go. Nice one.
Hopefully this thread can DIE a very quick and painful death.
Welpee wrote:dk7th wrote:it's not too late to right the ship. the solution is simple-- if rose's numbers don't change he needs to be benched for jennings or even baker. THIS IS THE CORE ISSUE WITH THE TEAM. rose has to get kp6 the ball, he has to play with and for others.
....Yawn
ditto big yawn rose is a top pg in this league
fitzfarm wrote:Welpee wrote:dk7th wrote:it's not too late to right the ship. the solution is simple-- if rose's numbers don't change he needs to be benched for jennings or even baker. THIS IS THE CORE ISSUE WITH THE TEAM. rose has to get kp6 the ball, he has to play with and for others.
....Yawn
ditto big yawn rose is a top pg in this league
This. Hopefully the spamming of the board will stop soon.
And predictably, Rose has a great game in a big early season road win and he disappears.
Rose has been good at drives but nothing else. What I like about yesterday he was not looking for his own number on drives instead looking for teammates as well. That's what we need.
Much better game by Rose. Until last night he was mostly driving without thinking about giving up the ball. Last night Rose was driving, but also finding the open man on the wing, cutters. Hope Rose keeps this up. Still should look for KP more though.
Are people forgetting that: 1) he pretty much missed all of training camp; 2) he (and everyone else) is playing for a new coach/system; 3) he's operating in a starting line up in which 3/5 changed since last year.
Can we give the Rose, the team, the coach, the system some time before declaring there's a problem? Geez, give it some time! We're five games in.
And I keep coming back to this, we had Calderon as our starting PG last year!
GustavBahler wrote:Much better game by Rose. Until last night he was mostly driving without thinking about giving up the ball. Last night Rose was driving, but also finding the open man on the wing, cutters. Hope Rose keeps this up. Still should look for KP more though.
yes and the numbers he put up are much better vis a vis the ratio between usage and assist rate, a much more unselfish 24.8% usage to 36.1% for a more point-guard like .68 to 1, which is pretty much point guard territory. ideally, as i have in my sig, you want his usage 24% and below, and he shouldn't be taking more than 13-14 shots per game either. i saw him take 3-4 bad shots last night. he needs to play a tighter game because you cannot rely on lee et. al. to take up the slack every night.
yes rose needs to continue to find kp6 more. but guess what, thanks primarily to his ball-sharing, both he and melo were picked up by the rest of the team, with off the charts efficiency. but again, you definitely don't want rose taking 16 shots with only a 43.6% TS, nor melo taking a whopping 22 shots at only 51.5% TS.
something is up with melo. my guess is he is trying too hard to hold on to some putative leadership role, and he is shooting way too much.
dk7th wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Much better game by Rose. Until last night he was mostly driving without thinking about giving up the ball. Last night Rose was driving, but also finding the open man on the wing, cutters. Hope Rose keeps this up. Still should look for KP more though.
yes and the numbers he put up are much better vis a vis the ratio between usage and assist rate, a much more unselfish 24.8% usage to 36.1% for a more point-guard like .68 to 1, which is pretty much point guard territory. ideally, as i have in my sig, you want his usage 24% and below, and he shouldn't be taking more than 13-14 shots per game either. i saw him take 3-4 bad shots last night. he needs to play a tighter game because you cannot rely on lee et. al. to take up the slack every night.
yes rose needs to continue to find kp6 more. but guess what, thanks primarily to his ball-sharing, both he and melo were picked up by the rest of the team, with off the charts efficiency. but again, you definitely don't want rose taking 16 shots with only a 43.6% TS, nor melo taking a whopping 22 shots at only 51.5% TS.
something is up with melo. my guess is he is trying too hard to hold on to some putative leadership role, and he is shooting way too much.
IMO it's really very simple, these players need time to adjust to each other and this new style of ball. As they continue to play and learn each other they will conform to the proper approach. Melo will pass more and force it less. Rose will pass more and force it less. They won't ignore KP. It's all part of the process.
