Knicks · ROSE-- usage 27.2%, BPM -4.1, 16.3 fga = knicks failure (page 3)

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Much better game by Rose. Until last night he was mostly driving without thinking about giving up the ball. Last night Rose was driving, but also finding the open man on the wing, cutters. Hope Rose keeps this up. Still should look for KP more though.

yes and the numbers he put up are much better vis a vis the ratio between usage and assist rate, a much more unselfish 24.8% usage to 36.1% for a more point-guard like .68 to 1, which is pretty much point guard territory. ideally, as i have in my sig, you want his usage 24% and below, and he shouldn't be taking more than 13-14 shots per game either. i saw him take 3-4 bad shots last night. he needs to play a tighter game because you cannot rely on lee et. al. to take up the slack every night.

yes rose needs to continue to find kp6 more. but guess what, thanks primarily to his ball-sharing, both he and melo were picked up by the rest of the team, with off the charts efficiency. but again, you definitely don't want rose taking 16 shots with only a 43.6% TS, nor melo taking a whopping 22 shots at only 51.5% TS.

something is up with melo. my guess is he is trying too hard to hold on to some putative leadership role, and he is shooting way too much.

IMO it's really very simple, these players need time to adjust to each other and this new style of ball. As they continue to play and learn each other they will conform to the proper approach. Melo will pass more and force it less. Rose will pass more and force it less. They won't ignore KP. It's all part of the process.

TPercy wrote:Much better game, but man has he got to limit those turnovers. I really appreciate his increased commitment to passing, but some of his attempted passes are brainless.

turnovers are bad. we'll find out tomorrow about his usage and assist rates. as it is he hit the upper limit of his shot attempts according to my prescription. four of those shots were just bad shots. should have been passes. melo was very bad again. his ego is making him selfish.

rose took 14 shots-- 4 of those shots were bad shots
rose had a usage rate of 24.8%

he adhered to my prescription for knicks success yet the knicks failed.

i am observing a second issue with this team, which is melo's refusal to cede his primacy to kp6. he is not playing like he should. this is not competitive spirit this comes across as ego. yesterday he seemed to be in a dualer's mentality with hayward, and his usage to assist ratio was an unhealthy 31.0 to 15.8 for a lousy 1.96 to 1. he is not sharing the ball enough. and nobody should be taking more than 18 shots a game and he took twenty.

i hope melo's ego doesn't hinder the team. i hope we see what some posters have called "dad melo."

Bonn1997 wrote:Rose has climbed back up to zero win shares! He was in the negative all season.

All season?????

We only played 6 games...smh

seen it.

dk7th wrote:against the jazz:

rose took 14 shots-- 4 of those shots were bad shots
rose had a usage rate of 24.8%

he adhered to my prescription for knicks success yet the knicks failed.

i am observing a second issue with this team, which is melo's refusal to cede his primacy to kp6. he is not playing like he should. this is not competitive spirit this comes across as ego. yesterday he seemed to be in a dualer's mentality with hayward, and his usage to assist ratio was an unhealthy 31.0 to 15.8 for a lousy 1.96 to 1. he is not sharing the ball enough. and nobody should be taking more than 18 shots a game and he took twenty.

i hope melo's ego doesn't hinder the team. i hope we see what some posters have called "dad melo."

Melo had a 618 TS% for the game. With 3 assist to 1 TO. His high volume and usage was justified in this instance. With 6 of his 8 misses being from 3. He also had 9 rebounds with 8 being defensive.

On a side note

Gordan Hayward shot 6-17 fg%, 2-8 3pt%, had 3 turn overs and 0 assist. Yet held a 604 TS% because he was 14-14 from FT.

TS clearly favors FTs to much which now makes it suspect to me.

We lost because our defense sucked, though it sucked for both teams.
We didn't get enough out of Noah.
Our bench was so weak that Lance Thomas gets to play 29 mins to stink up the place.

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:against the jazz:

rose took 14 shots-- 4 of those shots were bad shots
rose had a usage rate of 24.8%

he adhered to my prescription for knicks success yet the knicks failed.

i am observing a second issue with this team, which is melo's refusal to cede his primacy to kp6. he is not playing like he should. this is not competitive spirit this comes across as ego. yesterday he seemed to be in a dualer's mentality with hayward, and his usage to assist ratio was an unhealthy 31.0 to 15.8 for a lousy 1.96 to 1. he is not sharing the ball enough. and nobody should be taking more than 18 shots a game and he took twenty.

i hope melo's ego doesn't hinder the team. i hope we see what some posters have called "dad melo."

Melo had a 618 TS% for the game. With 3 assist to 1 TO. His high volume and usage was justified in this instance. With 6 of his 8 misses being from 3. He also had 9 rebounds with 8 being defensive.

On a side note

Gordan Hayward shot 6-17 fg%, 2-8 3pt%, had 3 turn overs and 0 assist. Yet held a 604 TS% because he was 14-14 from FT.

TS clearly favors FTs to much which now makes it suspect to me.

We lost because our defense sucked, though it sucked for both teams.
We didn't get enough out of Noah.
Our bench was so weak that Lance Thomas gets to play 29 mins to stink up the place.

too much value on free throws? not on my block. elite players seem to get to the line at will. this is especially crucial during the deeper rounds of the playoffs.

but melo took too many shots at the expense of teamwork and chemistry. his usage to assist rate ratio was an unseemly 2:1, close to his career averages when he led his teams to mediocrity. wheres that "dad melo" from last season?!?

but yes you're right that the defense was the main issue... just not exclusively so.

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:against the jazz:

rose took 14 shots-- 4 of those shots were bad shots
rose had a usage rate of 24.8%

he adhered to my prescription for knicks success yet the knicks failed.

i am observing a second issue with this team, which is melo's refusal to cede his primacy to kp6. he is not playing like he should. this is not competitive spirit this comes across as ego. yesterday he seemed to be in a dualer's mentality with hayward, and his usage to assist ratio was an unhealthy 31.0 to 15.8 for a lousy 1.96 to 1. he is not sharing the ball enough. and nobody should be taking more than 18 shots a game and he took twenty.

i hope melo's ego doesn't hinder the team. i hope we see what some posters have called "dad melo."

Melo had a 618 TS% for the game. With 3 assist to 1 TO. His high volume and usage was justified in this instance. With 6 of his 8 misses being from 3. He also had 9 rebounds with 8 being defensive.

On a side note

Gordan Hayward shot 6-17 fg%, 2-8 3pt%, had 3 turn overs and 0 assist. Yet held a 604 TS% because he was 14-14 from FT.

TS clearly favors FTs to much which now makes it suspect to me.

We lost because our defense sucked, though it sucked for both teams.
We didn't get enough out of Noah.
Our bench was so weak that Lance Thomas gets to play 29 mins to stink up the place.

LT's ankle problems might have something to do with it. Thomas hasnt been taking it to the rim that much this season. Its making it harder for him to get the looks he got last season. Not suggesting its the only reason for the slump, but Lance was very effective last season because of his balanced attack. He was everywhere on the court.

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:against the jazz:

rose took 14 shots-- 4 of those shots were bad shots
rose had a usage rate of 24.8%

he adhered to my prescription for knicks success yet the knicks failed.

i am observing a second issue with this team, which is melo's refusal to cede his primacy to kp6. he is not playing like he should. this is not competitive spirit this comes across as ego. yesterday he seemed to be in a dualer's mentality with hayward, and his usage to assist ratio was an unhealthy 31.0 to 15.8 for a lousy 1.96 to 1. he is not sharing the ball enough. and nobody should be taking more than 18 shots a game and he took twenty.

i hope melo's ego doesn't hinder the team. i hope we see what some posters have called "dad melo."

Melo had a 618 TS% for the game. With 3 assist to 1 TO. His high volume and usage was justified in this instance. With 6 of his 8 misses being from 3. He also had 9 rebounds with 8 being defensive.

On a side note

Gordan Hayward shot 6-17 fg%, 2-8 3pt%, had 3 turn overs and 0 assist. Yet held a 604 TS% because he was 14-14 from FT.

TS clearly favors FTs to much which now makes it suspect to me.

We lost because our defense sucked, though it sucked for both teams.
We didn't get enough out of Noah.
Our bench was so weak that Lance Thomas gets to play 29 mins to stink up the place.

too much value on free throws? not on my block. elite players seem to get to the line at will. this is especially crucial during the deeper rounds of the playoffs.

but melo took too many shots at the expense of teamwork and chemistry. his usage to assist rate ratio was an unseemly 2:1, close to his career averages when he led his teams to mediocrity. wheres that "dad melo" from last season?!?

but yes you're right that the defense was the main issue... just not exclusively so.

I'm saying his(Hayward) TS shouldn't be at 604 when shooting 6-17 while having 0 assist and 3 TOs with a 35% usage rate. He(Hayward) got no one involved and strictly looked to score but its justified by TS due to his FT rate and %. Hayward's last 2 seasons he has been a 6 FTs per game dude and is a career 4.4 FT attempt dude. He doesn't go to the line at will. He just played the Knicks.

To make clear I am speaking on these 2 separately and not comparing.

Melo held a high TS due to his low TOs and high % shooting. So his usage was justified even without high assist numbers. He also lead both teams in rebounding vs monster rebounders providing other things then scoring. And had the highest +/- on the Knicks for the game.

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:against the jazz:

rose took 14 shots-- 4 of those shots were bad shots
rose had a usage rate of 24.8%

he adhered to my prescription for knicks success yet the knicks failed.

i am observing a second issue with this team, which is melo's refusal to cede his primacy to kp6. he is not playing like he should. this is not competitive spirit this comes across as ego. yesterday he seemed to be in a dualer's mentality with hayward, and his usage to assist ratio was an unhealthy 31.0 to 15.8 for a lousy 1.96 to 1. he is not sharing the ball enough. and nobody should be taking more than 18 shots a game and he took twenty.

i hope melo's ego doesn't hinder the team. i hope we see what some posters have called "dad melo."

Melo had a 618 TS% for the game. With 3 assist to 1 TO. His high volume and usage was justified in this instance. With 6 of his 8 misses being from 3. He also had 9 rebounds with 8 being defensive.

On a side note

Gordan Hayward shot 6-17 fg%, 2-8 3pt%, had 3 turn overs and 0 assist. Yet held a 604 TS% because he was 14-14 from FT.

TS clearly favors FTs to much which now makes it suspect to me.

We lost because our defense sucked, though it sucked for both teams.
We didn't get enough out of Noah.
Our bench was so weak that Lance Thomas gets to play 29 mins to stink up the place.

too much value on free throws? not on my block. elite players seem to get to the line at will. this is especially crucial during the deeper rounds of the playoffs.

but melo took too many shots at the expense of teamwork and chemistry. his usage to assist rate ratio was an unseemly 2:1, close to his career averages when he led his teams to mediocrity. wheres that "dad melo" from last season?!?

but yes you're right that the defense was the main issue... just not exclusively so.

I'm saying his(Hayward) TS shouldn't be at 604 when shooting 6-17 while having 0 assist and 3 TOs with a 35% usage rate. He(Hayward) got no one involved and strictly looked to score but its justified by TS due to his FT rate and %. Hayward's last 2 seasons he has been a 6 FTs per game dude and is a career 4.4 FT attempt dude. He doesn't go to the line at will. He just played the Knicks.

To make clear I am speaking on these 2 separately and not comparing.

Melo held a high TS due to his low TOs and high % shooting. So his usage was justified even without high assist numbers. He also lead both teams in rebounding vs monster rebounders providing other things then scoring. And had the highest +/- on the Knicks for the game.

i like the TS% figure but it does not translate to being a team player, as you point out. what i am saying is, your not liking the free throw aspect notwithstanding, hayward did not hurt his team with selfishness as well as bad shooting. was he selfish? yes. he had zero assists. did drawing all those fouls mitigate poor field goal shooting? also yes. on how many times he went to the line you have to give him credit, i think. if you don't foul him i think he is probably making a ton of layups instead. in the end, in spite of the selfishness, i don't think he hurt his team. the kid is very strong, athletic, and smooth. also, the postgame i think hahn mentioned the game has slowed down for him, which i definitely agree with.

melo's approach virtually his entire career is high usage, low assist rate, and too many shot attempts. on that note, i don't like any player taking more than 18+ shots a game, and melo took 20. he might have served his team better had he passed up a couple of isolation shots or rushed shots.

as to plus/minus, melo's plus/minus was +3, and hayward's was +8. by that measure, neither player hurt the team, but hayward fared better than you might imagine, right?

yellowboy90 wrote:How did Porzingis do?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxs...

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:against the jazz:

rose took 14 shots-- 4 of those shots were bad shots
rose had a usage rate of 24.8%

he adhered to my prescription for knicks success yet the knicks failed.

i am observing a second issue with this team, which is melo's refusal to cede his primacy to kp6. he is not playing like he should. this is not competitive spirit this comes across as ego. yesterday he seemed to be in a dualer's mentality with hayward, and his usage to assist ratio was an unhealthy 31.0 to 15.8 for a lousy 1.96 to 1. he is not sharing the ball enough. and nobody should be taking more than 18 shots a game and he took twenty.

i hope melo's ego doesn't hinder the team. i hope we see what some posters have called "dad melo."

Melo had a 618 TS% for the game. With 3 assist to 1 TO. His high volume and usage was justified in this instance. With 6 of his 8 misses being from 3. He also had 9 rebounds with 8 being defensive.

On a side note

Gordan Hayward shot 6-17 fg%, 2-8 3pt%, had 3 turn overs and 0 assist. Yet held a 604 TS% because he was 14-14 from FT.

TS clearly favors FTs to much which now makes it suspect to me.

We lost because our defense sucked, though it sucked for both teams.
We didn't get enough out of Noah.
Our bench was so weak that Lance Thomas gets to play 29 mins to stink up the place.

too much value on free throws? not on my block. elite players seem to get to the line at will. this is especially crucial during the deeper rounds of the playoffs.

but melo took too many shots at the expense of teamwork and chemistry. his usage to assist rate ratio was an unseemly 2:1, close to his career averages when he led his teams to mediocrity. wheres that "dad melo" from last season?!?

but yes you're right that the defense was the main issue... just not exclusively so.

I'm saying his(Hayward) TS shouldn't be at 604 when shooting 6-17 while having 0 assist and 3 TOs with a 35% usage rate. He(Hayward) got no one involved and strictly looked to score but its justified by TS due to his FT rate and %. Hayward's last 2 seasons he has been a 6 FTs per game dude and is a career 4.4 FT attempt dude. He doesn't go to the line at will. He just played the Knicks.

To make clear I am speaking on these 2 separately and not comparing.

Melo held a high TS due to his low TOs and high % shooting. So his usage was justified even without high assist numbers. He also lead both teams in rebounding vs monster rebounders providing other things then scoring. And had the highest +/- on the Knicks for the game.

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:against the jazz:

rose took 14 shots-- 4 of those shots were bad shots
rose had a usage rate of 24.8%

he adhered to my prescription for knicks success yet the knicks failed.

i am observing a second issue with this team, which is melo's refusal to cede his primacy to kp6. he is not playing like he should. this is not competitive spirit this comes across as ego. yesterday he seemed to be in a dualer's mentality with hayward, and his usage to assist ratio was an unhealthy 31.0 to 15.8 for a lousy 1.96 to 1. he is not sharing the ball enough. and nobody should be taking more than 18 shots a game and he took twenty.

i hope melo's ego doesn't hinder the team. i hope we see what some posters have called "dad melo."

Melo had a 618 TS% for the game. With 3 assist to 1 TO. His high volume and usage was justified in this instance. With 6 of his 8 misses being from 3. He also had 9 rebounds with 8 being defensive.

On a side note

Gordan Hayward shot 6-17 fg%, 2-8 3pt%, had 3 turn overs and 0 assist. Yet held a 604 TS% because he was 14-14 from FT.

TS clearly favors FTs to much which now makes it suspect to me.

We lost because our defense sucked, though it sucked for both teams.
We didn't get enough out of Noah.
Our bench was so weak that Lance Thomas gets to play 29 mins to stink up the place.

too much value on free throws? not on my block. elite players seem to get to the line at will. this is especially crucial during the deeper rounds of the playoffs.

but melo took too many shots at the expense of teamwork and chemistry. his usage to assist rate ratio was an unseemly 2:1, close to his career averages when he led his teams to mediocrity. wheres that "dad melo" from last season?!?

but yes you're right that the defense was the main issue... just not exclusively so.

I'm saying his(Hayward) TS shouldn't be at 604 when shooting 6-17 while having 0 assist and 3 TOs with a 35% usage rate. He(Hayward) got no one involved and strictly looked to score but its justified by TS due to his FT rate and %. Hayward's last 2 seasons he has been a 6 FTs per game dude and is a career 4.4 FT attempt dude. He doesn't go to the line at will. He just played the Knicks.

To make clear I am speaking on these 2 separately and not comparing.

Melo held a high TS due to his low TOs and high % shooting. So his usage was justified even without high assist numbers. He also lead both teams in rebounding vs monster rebounders providing other things then scoring. And had the highest +/- on the Knicks for the game.

i like the TS% figure but it does not translate to being a team player, as you point out. what i am saying is, your not liking the free throw aspect notwithstanding, hayward did not hurt his team with selfishness as well as bad shooting. was he selfish? yes. he had zero assists. did drawing all those fouls mitigate poor field goal shooting? also yes. on how many times he went to the line you have to give him credit, i think. if you don't foul him i think he is probably making a ton of layups instead. in the end, in spite of the selfishness, i don't think he hurt his team. the kid is very strong, athletic, and smooth. also, the postgame i think hahn mentioned the game has slowed down for him, which i definitely agree with.

melo's approach virtually his entire career is high usage, low assist rate, and too many shot attempts. on that note, i don't like any player taking more than 18+ shots a game, and melo took 20. he might have served his team better had he passed up a couple of isolation shots or rushed shots.

as to plus/minus, melo's plus/minus was +3, and hayward's was +8. by that measure, neither player hurt the team, but hayward fared better than you might imagine, right?

I understand Melo's rep. So I understand the lack of leeway. But in this instance he was justified for his volume since he was very efficient. And his defensive rebounding shows he was doing some dirty work as well. Same reason why we don't get on KP for his 30.9 usage and 5% assist rate. Because he shot at a 69 as well as a 78 TS% the game prior.

I didn't say I believed Hayward hurt his team. But at the same time George Hill had a TS of 76% and a usage to assist ratio of 20-46 and a better defensive rating and he was only +3.

*George Hill would be a really good guard to acquire this off season if we could. He could play Tri or PNR.

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:against the jazz:

rose took 14 shots-- 4 of those shots were bad shots
rose had a usage rate of 24.8%

he adhered to my prescription for knicks success yet the knicks failed.

i am observing a second issue with this team, which is melo's refusal to cede his primacy to kp6. he is not playing like he should. this is not competitive spirit this comes across as ego. yesterday he seemed to be in a dualer's mentality with hayward, and his usage to assist ratio was an unhealthy 31.0 to 15.8 for a lousy 1.96 to 1. he is not sharing the ball enough. and nobody should be taking more than 18 shots a game and he took twenty.

i hope melo's ego doesn't hinder the team. i hope we see what some posters have called "dad melo."

Melo had a 618 TS% for the game. With 3 assist to 1 TO. His high volume and usage was justified in this instance. With 6 of his 8 misses being from 3. He also had 9 rebounds with 8 being defensive.

On a side note

Gordan Hayward shot 6-17 fg%, 2-8 3pt%, had 3 turn overs and 0 assist. Yet held a 604 TS% because he was 14-14 from FT.

TS clearly favors FTs to much which now makes it suspect to me.

We lost because our defense sucked, though it sucked for both teams.
We didn't get enough out of Noah.
Our bench was so weak that Lance Thomas gets to play 29 mins to stink up the place.

too much value on free throws? not on my block. elite players seem to get to the line at will. this is especially crucial during the deeper rounds of the playoffs.

but melo took too many shots at the expense of teamwork and chemistry. his usage to assist rate ratio was an unseemly 2:1, close to his career averages when he led his teams to mediocrity. wheres that "dad melo" from last season?!?

but yes you're right that the defense was the main issue... just not exclusively so.

I'm saying his(Hayward) TS shouldn't be at 604 when shooting 6-17 while having 0 assist and 3 TOs with a 35% usage rate. He(Hayward) got no one involved and strictly looked to score but its justified by TS due to his FT rate and %. Hayward's last 2 seasons he has been a 6 FTs per game dude and is a career 4.4 FT attempt dude. He doesn't go to the line at will. He just played the Knicks.

To make clear I am speaking on these 2 separately and not comparing.

Melo held a high TS due to his low TOs and high % shooting. So his usage was justified even without high assist numbers. He also lead both teams in rebounding vs monster rebounders providing other things then scoring. And had the highest +/- on the Knicks for the game.

i like the TS% figure but it does not translate to being a team player, as you point out. what i am saying is, your not liking the free throw aspect notwithstanding, hayward did not hurt his team with selfishness as well as bad shooting. was he selfish? yes. he had zero assists. did drawing all those fouls mitigate poor field goal shooting? also yes. on how many times he went to the line you have to give him credit, i think. if you don't foul him i think he is probably making a ton of layups instead. in the end, in spite of the selfishness, i don't think he hurt his team. the kid is very strong, athletic, and smooth. also, the postgame i think hahn mentioned the game has slowed down for him, which i definitely agree with.

melo's approach virtually his entire career is high usage, low assist rate, and too many shot attempts. on that note, i don't like any player taking more than 18+ shots a game, and melo took 20. he might have served his team better had he passed up a couple of isolation shots or rushed shots.

as to plus/minus, melo's plus/minus was +3, and hayward's was +8. by that measure, neither player hurt the team, but hayward fared better than you might imagine, right?

I understand Melo's rep. So I understand the lack of leeway. But in this instance he was justified for his volume since he was very efficient. And his defensive rebounding shows he was doing some dirty work as well. Same reason why we don't get on KP for his 30.9 usage and 5% assist rate. Because he shot at a 69 as well as a 78 TS% the game prior.

I didn't say I believed Hayward hurt his team. But at the same time George Hill had a TS of 76% and a usage to assist ratio of 20-46 and a better defensive rating and he was only +3.

*George Hill would be a really good guard to acquire this off season if we could. He could play Tri or PNR.

george hill is EXACTLY what the team needs.

yellowboy90 wrote:18 shots, 30.9 Usg%, and 5.4 ast% what does it mean?

it means his role is strictly as a finisher and not as a playmaker... for now.

yellowboy90 wrote:18 shots, 30.9 Usg%, and 5.4 ast% what does it mean?

Usage is basically how much a player has the ball in his hands. So anyone with high usage you expect positive outcomes with the ball in their hands. Either by scoring very efficiently or by generating assist. KP was very efficient offensively vs the Jazz so his 30.5 usage and 18 shots translated into positive outcomes of efficent scoring. 10-18 55 fg%, 4-7 42 3pt %, 5-5 100% Ft%. The only negative would be 1 ast to 2 turnovers. But that pales in comparison to his shooting for the game.

Posting that the opposing team's player's selfishness and ZERO ASSISTS is justified because he's YOUNG AND ATHLETIC - thread failure.

Consistently circle jerking one's self into oblivion by disguising deranged Melo hate as KP6 love? - thread failure.

Never mentioning or understanding that Melo for the first time in his entire tenure here is now facing one on one defensive coverage - thread failure.