Knicks · Sources: Phil Jackson unhappy with Knicks' limited use of triangle offense... (page 4)
GustavBahler wrote:dk7th wrote:GustavBahler wrote:dk7th wrote:GustavBahler wrote:jrodmc wrote:GustavBahler wrote:jrodmc wrote:GustavBahler wrote:jrodmc wrote:GustavBahler wrote:jrodmc wrote:$12 million a year so he can fade into the bushes? Right. This is what you get with the Zenmaster.He wants the triangle, but he knows 'today's players' don't:
1) have the rudimentary skills to learn it
2) have the desire to slow the game down (Thank you bang bang bang Steph Curry, and NFL fullback wide receiver LeBron)So please just play it in your half court sets, should that ever happen to occur.
So if we could just stop people from scoring...we would never have to worry about running the triangle.
Quiet Eli. I dont want Phil to fade into the bushes. Would love for Phil to be a very visible presence, someone the players can go to for advice, or Phil can give advice to if he believes a player needs it. I believe Phil can have a positive influence on this team other than mandating what system they run, even when its clear that its not, nor will it ever be the best option. At that point you're hurting the team as much as you're helping it.
Yeah, I got it Winston; don't fade into the bushes, just be an overpaid giant fortune cookie. Tell the players all about how Clyde made out back in the day.
You believe Phil can have a positive influence? Like, drafting KP, keeping all of our first rounders, getting rid of a previous crop of head cases, even throw in a tank season bone to all the gm Hinkie wannabe's. That's a safe belief you have there.He's still a coach first, and an executive second. Guy has huge ego and a belief in his pet system. Good for him.
It's interesting that Pop wins rings and is called a fucqin genius, but Phil wins twice as many and is still a stooge.
You have a very cynical view of Phil's ability to mentor players. You might have noticed that I mentioned upthread the really good things Phil has done as far as building for future. If Phil really believes that he should approach the team as a coach, and not an executive, then that would explain our record since he took the job. The big decisions on coaching should be done by the HEAD COACH, and the executive decisions should be made by the highest ranking executive, which Phil is. Phil's job should be to help make Jeff's job easier. Phil giving the job of defense to one of his flunkies doesnt qualify.
You have a very naive view of Phil's ego. The guy's ego is monstrous. If he mentors players, what's he going to be mentoring them on as Prez? Investment options? Real estate? He's going to mentor them on what he knows and believes, which is his beloved geometric shape, right? What the eff else is he going to mentor them on? That great jump hook form he had? How to properly transition from the NBDL to the NBA? How to play '70's defense in the 21st century?
Sorry but as an exec, Phil gets to appoint his own flunkies, thought that would have been understood. Horny doesn't exactly have some HOF pedigree as a coach. You take a job under the living NBA coaching legend, you deal with the BS that comes along with that. I'm sure Horny's a big boy and gets that, as well as knowing Rambis is a career assistant who blew up the two times he sat down in the big chair. I'm sure Rambis must get that difference between him and Horny as well.
At his income level, and with the way he's come into this franchise, he can approach this position as coach, ball boy, GM, whatever the eff he wants. Like Jimmie D, when it comes to basketball, I don't know sheehit in comparison.
And you really think our record is solely the result of Phil's executive decisions? You can't say he does really good things, but that they all really have sucky outcomes because of our record. We fielded an NBDL team, we tanked, and now he's rebuilt the whole franchise with unicorn, yoots and vets. This is MSG, not the Barklays or Philly. No time in 5 years to be an extended Hinkie here, except in the addled minds of some posters on here.
Phil's job is to get this franchise back at least to the 90's level of relevance, not make sure his HEAD COACH has an easy job. He took a shot at a Latvian that made little boy fans cry. He's kept all our first rounders. He's taken a shot on three reclamation jobs, and lots of Euros and backcourt yoots.
He's talking triangle and now want's better defense, now. Better Phil doing something than nothing. Starting off 4-16 while Horny finds his way is obviously not an option. Horny's not practicing defending the pick and roll? Really? And folks got problems with Phil butting in?
You have a very Dolanite view of running the Knicks. Its one thing to put loyalists in your organization, its another to keep hiring someone who has proven again and again that he is one of the worst at his job in the industry. In the history of said industry. With Rambis its more than Phil keeping one of his people around. How many chances does he get for you to say enough already? Not one better candidate out there to help Jeff with D but one of the worst coaches in NBA history and Phil's best friend? Just because he can keep his favorite crony around, doesn't mean he should.
As far as Phil's executive decisions not being responsible for their record. Who hired a rookie coach while he was still a player, to install a complicated offense? That was one bad executive decision. Hiring one of the worst coaches in NBA history as the follow up was another.
Again, Ive acknowleged repeatedly the good moves Phil has made, but this insistence on backseat driving is not helping the Knicks return to relevance, maybe through the draft, the way things are going.
As far as mentoring. Phil has spent almost 50 years in pro ball as a player, coach, and now executive. He knows the intracacies of NBA offenses as good as anyone. If he wanted to, he could help Jeff get the most out of his offense without mentioning the T word. It isnt just X and Os, its individual players, their game, what they can do to be more effective. Phil could help in that dept. Players have said that they want to see Phil around, just not trying to shove a triangle down their throats.
You're right, Phil has an enormous ego, so did Riley and Auerbach. But they learned as executives to strike the right balance between being a (former) coach, and an executive. Something that Phil has yet to do.
If I recall correctly, didn't Riley (the former coach) step back in and coach? I guess he didn't learn that balance too completely. And Auerbach said lots of things that betrayed the facade of having a huge ego. He could be an on-purpose azzhole, but he was quoted all along that it was players, not him (or his "system"), that won. Which was an honest take, because before Russell, the Celtics couldn't get the fuhuck out of their own way, despite having the premier PG in the league. He admitted as much regarding Havlicek as well.
Your "as far as mentoring" sentence doesn't make much sense after acknowledging Phil's monstrous ego and the fact that he's still preaching triangularly despite seeing 50 years of the intricacies of the NBA. Players are paid to play, so who really gives a sheehit what they want to see the $60 million dollar President doing? Phil has a huge ego, masturbates over triangles, but he's going to lay that all aside to do what you think he should do and the players think he should do.
Riley decided to go all in, not backseat drive, and it paid off. You really think what Phil is doing a better option? Its clear that he really misses coaching. I believe if Phil decided to coach again, Dolan (to his credit) would pull out all stops to make Phil as comfortable as possible. If Phil is indeed unable physically to coach again, then he needs to come to grips with that fact. Sure doesnt look that way.
Yes I am suggesting what I would like to see Phil do, just like any other suggestion posters make on this board as far as the direction of the team, the franchise. To quote one of my favorite films, thats like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500!
his back is shot, his hips are shot, his knees are shot, he has heart trouble. his last few seasons with the lakers he had a special chair he sat in for games.
give the man a break.
Get bent. You conveniently left out the part where I mentioned that Phil might not be physically able to coach anymore.
you say he's physically incapable of coaching and you seem to complain that he is meddling. how do you know that? have you had a chat with hornacek? all i can see is he laments the fact that modern players are fundamentally unsound. that is an indisputable fact. good news though: european players-- a focus of his tenure-- are in fact fundamentally sound.
all this foolishness about the triangle being outmoded is a coverup for the fact that the modern american player, a product of aau and ncaa conveyor belt basketball, is not prepared to play the beautiful game.
Again, get bent. I never said that Phil was or wasnt physically able to coach. I did say that if Phil can coach he should. If he cant, he should stop telling a coach who has already proven that he can succeed in this league, what to do.
A rookie coach like Fisher I understand. One of the worst coaches in NBA history, I understand. Not a coach who has shown that he can succeed in this league. Phil needs to let Hornacek run the team the way he wants to. Let Hornacek play to his strengths, not his own.
"While healthy debate and discussion is fine, please refrain from rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. If it's severe enough you will lose your account privileges."
i don't know what "get bent" means but perhaps martin or andrew would like to take you to task for your posts towards me. just a thought.
anyway, all i see is a straw man argument here. hornacek may have already found a solution thanks primarily to jackson's focus on acquiring european players and four-year guys like baker. my prediction is an uptick in minutes for said players, which will solve whatever foolish drama you are drumming up.
dk7th wrote:GustavBahler wrote:dk7th wrote:GustavBahler wrote:dk7th wrote:GustavBahler wrote:jrodmc wrote:GustavBahler wrote:jrodmc wrote:GustavBahler wrote:jrodmc wrote:GustavBahler wrote:jrodmc wrote:$12 million a year so he can fade into the bushes? Right. This is what you get with the Zenmaster.He wants the triangle, but he knows 'today's players' don't:
1) have the rudimentary skills to learn it
2) have the desire to slow the game down (Thank you bang bang bang Steph Curry, and NFL fullback wide receiver LeBron)So please just play it in your half court sets, should that ever happen to occur.
So if we could just stop people from scoring...we would never have to worry about running the triangle.
Quiet Eli. I dont want Phil to fade into the bushes. Would love for Phil to be a very visible presence, someone the players can go to for advice, or Phil can give advice to if he believes a player needs it. I believe Phil can have a positive influence on this team other than mandating what system they run, even when its clear that its not, nor will it ever be the best option. At that point you're hurting the team as much as you're helping it.
Yeah, I got it Winston; don't fade into the bushes, just be an overpaid giant fortune cookie. Tell the players all about how Clyde made out back in the day.
You believe Phil can have a positive influence? Like, drafting KP, keeping all of our first rounders, getting rid of a previous crop of head cases, even throw in a tank season bone to all the gm Hinkie wannabe's. That's a safe belief you have there.He's still a coach first, and an executive second. Guy has huge ego and a belief in his pet system. Good for him.
It's interesting that Pop wins rings and is called a fucqin genius, but Phil wins twice as many and is still a stooge.
You have a very cynical view of Phil's ability to mentor players. You might have noticed that I mentioned upthread the really good things Phil has done as far as building for future. If Phil really believes that he should approach the team as a coach, and not an executive, then that would explain our record since he took the job. The big decisions on coaching should be done by the HEAD COACH, and the executive decisions should be made by the highest ranking executive, which Phil is. Phil's job should be to help make Jeff's job easier. Phil giving the job of defense to one of his flunkies doesnt qualify.
You have a very naive view of Phil's ego. The guy's ego is monstrous. If he mentors players, what's he going to be mentoring them on as Prez? Investment options? Real estate? He's going to mentor them on what he knows and believes, which is his beloved geometric shape, right? What the eff else is he going to mentor them on? That great jump hook form he had? How to properly transition from the NBDL to the NBA? How to play '70's defense in the 21st century?
Sorry but as an exec, Phil gets to appoint his own flunkies, thought that would have been understood. Horny doesn't exactly have some HOF pedigree as a coach. You take a job under the living NBA coaching legend, you deal with the BS that comes along with that. I'm sure Horny's a big boy and gets that, as well as knowing Rambis is a career assistant who blew up the two times he sat down in the big chair. I'm sure Rambis must get that difference between him and Horny as well.
At his income level, and with the way he's come into this franchise, he can approach this position as coach, ball boy, GM, whatever the eff he wants. Like Jimmie D, when it comes to basketball, I don't know sheehit in comparison.
And you really think our record is solely the result of Phil's executive decisions? You can't say he does really good things, but that they all really have sucky outcomes because of our record. We fielded an NBDL team, we tanked, and now he's rebuilt the whole franchise with unicorn, yoots and vets. This is MSG, not the Barklays or Philly. No time in 5 years to be an extended Hinkie here, except in the addled minds of some posters on here.
Phil's job is to get this franchise back at least to the 90's level of relevance, not make sure his HEAD COACH has an easy job. He took a shot at a Latvian that made little boy fans cry. He's kept all our first rounders. He's taken a shot on three reclamation jobs, and lots of Euros and backcourt yoots.
He's talking triangle and now want's better defense, now. Better Phil doing something than nothing. Starting off 4-16 while Horny finds his way is obviously not an option. Horny's not practicing defending the pick and roll? Really? And folks got problems with Phil butting in?
You have a very Dolanite view of running the Knicks. Its one thing to put loyalists in your organization, its another to keep hiring someone who has proven again and again that he is one of the worst at his job in the industry. In the history of said industry. With Rambis its more than Phil keeping one of his people around. How many chances does he get for you to say enough already? Not one better candidate out there to help Jeff with D but one of the worst coaches in NBA history and Phil's best friend? Just because he can keep his favorite crony around, doesn't mean he should.
As far as Phil's executive decisions not being responsible for their record. Who hired a rookie coach while he was still a player, to install a complicated offense? That was one bad executive decision. Hiring one of the worst coaches in NBA history as the follow up was another.
Again, Ive acknowleged repeatedly the good moves Phil has made, but this insistence on backseat driving is not helping the Knicks return to relevance, maybe through the draft, the way things are going.
As far as mentoring. Phil has spent almost 50 years in pro ball as a player, coach, and now executive. He knows the intracacies of NBA offenses as good as anyone. If he wanted to, he could help Jeff get the most out of his offense without mentioning the T word. It isnt just X and Os, its individual players, their game, what they can do to be more effective. Phil could help in that dept. Players have said that they want to see Phil around, just not trying to shove a triangle down their throats.
You're right, Phil has an enormous ego, so did Riley and Auerbach. But they learned as executives to strike the right balance between being a (former) coach, and an executive. Something that Phil has yet to do.
If I recall correctly, didn't Riley (the former coach) step back in and coach? I guess he didn't learn that balance too completely. And Auerbach said lots of things that betrayed the facade of having a huge ego. He could be an on-purpose azzhole, but he was quoted all along that it was players, not him (or his "system"), that won. Which was an honest take, because before Russell, the Celtics couldn't get the fuhuck out of their own way, despite having the premier PG in the league. He admitted as much regarding Havlicek as well.
Your "as far as mentoring" sentence doesn't make much sense after acknowledging Phil's monstrous ego and the fact that he's still preaching triangularly despite seeing 50 years of the intricacies of the NBA. Players are paid to play, so who really gives a sheehit what they want to see the $60 million dollar President doing? Phil has a huge ego, masturbates over triangles, but he's going to lay that all aside to do what you think he should do and the players think he should do.
Riley decided to go all in, not backseat drive, and it paid off. You really think what Phil is doing a better option? Its clear that he really misses coaching. I believe if Phil decided to coach again, Dolan (to his credit) would pull out all stops to make Phil as comfortable as possible. If Phil is indeed unable physically to coach again, then he needs to come to grips with that fact. Sure doesnt look that way.
Yes I am suggesting what I would like to see Phil do, just like any other suggestion posters make on this board as far as the direction of the team, the franchise. To quote one of my favorite films, thats like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500!
his back is shot, his hips are shot, his knees are shot, he has heart trouble. his last few seasons with the lakers he had a special chair he sat in for games.
give the man a break.
Get bent. You conveniently left out the part where I mentioned that Phil might not be physically able to coach anymore.
you say he's physically incapable of coaching and you seem to complain that he is meddling. how do you know that? have you had a chat with hornacek? all i can see is he laments the fact that modern players are fundamentally unsound. that is an indisputable fact. good news though: european players-- a focus of his tenure-- are in fact fundamentally sound.
all this foolishness about the triangle being outmoded is a coverup for the fact that the modern american player, a product of aau and ncaa conveyor belt basketball, is not prepared to play the beautiful game.
Again, get bent. I never said that Phil was or wasnt physically able to coach. I did say that if Phil can coach he should. If he cant, he should stop telling a coach who has already proven that he can succeed in this league, what to do.
A rookie coach like Fisher I understand. One of the worst coaches in NBA history, I understand. Not a coach who has shown that he can succeed in this league. Phil needs to let Hornacek run the team the way he wants to. Let Hornacek play to his strengths, not his own.
"While healthy debate and discussion is fine, please refrain from rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. If it's severe enough you will lose your account privileges."
i don't know what "get bent" means but perhaps martin or andrew would like to take you to task for your posts towards me. just a thought.
anyway, all i see is a straw man argument here. hornacek may have already found a solution thanks primarily to jackson's focus on acquiring european players and four-year guys like baker. my prediction is an uptick in minutes for said players, which will solve whatever foolish drama you are drumming up.
Drama? Your "Melodrama" on this board disqualifies you from even using that GD word. I see someone playing word games to no effect. Again, get bent.