Knicks · LeBron & Maverick Carter responds to Phil Jackson 'posse' reference... (page 9)

Should've just called them bitches instead because there would have been less confusion about his intent...and he wouldn't have been wrong there either. I am not giving anyone, especially a "grown man" like lebron and his "crew" or his "boys"( assuming those words are still ok?) a pass for being emotional. The main emotion lebron was showing was anger, at being called out as a prima donna and he took the easy route by playing the race card. You don't have to know my race because it just doesn't matter.

There is no need to have a dialogue or intervention or put phil on oprah's tender loving couch. Nor do we need a linguist or professor of whatever to explain the history of urban slang and how it can be used inappropriately and become hurtful to others. No, this is lebron using his power not to fight back but to bully.

nixluva wrote:I don't know why some are focusing on the racial aspect of this more than the fact that using the term Posse was not used a term of respect. It was used as a diss. If you have respect for someone then you would use more appropriate terms like Representatives, Team, Management etc. When you use a term like Posse that isn't an accurate word to describe these men nor one of respect for the positions they hold. It's not so much about RACE as it is about Respect.

I hear you nix, but would he have referred to a group of white men of similar age as a "posse?"

Something seems odd about the use of the word in context. It's subtle, but I'd argue there, and I know I'm not the only person who thinks this, and most who are against thinking this to be a problem, not all, are going to be white. Should that mean nothing at all then?

OasisBU wrote:Now Posse is racist? GTFO

My boss uses the term at work for his favorite crew to work with, of which I am a member. I have never once noted it as racist, it is a term that comes from the old west and has nothing to do with race.

What a joke.

It's not the word, it's the context in which it was said. Why is that difficult to understand?

Knixkik wrote:

PresIke wrote:The question to me is would Phil have used the word if he was referring to a bunch of white people?

I kind of doubt it.

I think it was a poor choice of words, speaking as a white person. Perhaps it is not my place perhaps to say how bad it is, but if I was Phil I'd apologize for the mistake and acknowledge the potential impact.

I'd argue pretty much all white people at some point have slipped in such a manner, including myself, in their past. Using it in this way, even if he didn't mean it this way, is what psychologists call a "microagression." The impact that racism/white supremacy/sexism, etc. has on us as a society is that, unfortunately, some words and phrases said by a person of the dominant cultural group (white people, men, straight identifying folks, etc.) can be a sign of our own stereotyping and/or when heard by others, especially a less powerful group/oppressed group member, as insensitive or lacking in empathy to even when we don't mean it.

martin, to answer your point about the word "posse," respectfully, the word was commonly used in the late 80's and early 90's to describe a group of young black men in hip-hop, right?

"My posse's always ready, and they're waitin' in my zone"
"The posse always ready - 98 at 98/My posse come quick, because my posse got velocity."

"Too Much Posse" - Public Enemy

"Posse" - Marvin Van Peebles 1993 "black" cowboy movie with Rakim and Big Daddy Kane titled quite clearly as a double entendre.

These are just some examples I can think of immediately.

I don't think it can be proven one way or another, but i also don't think "posse", "entourage", "crew", "group" or any other word that can be used in a similar fashion is specific to race. All of them can be used for any race without second thought. If i were to use any of those words in a sentence, i would not factor race into which word i used. I don't think he was either.

Can't be proven? If we are being honest with ourselves I think we know the answer. Denial is also one of the most common responses to racism, because there is so much stigma associated with it, and it's hard to accept that one can engage in racist activities when one sees themselves as a "good" person. Good people engage in microagressions and other forms of racism all of the time.

There are so many cases of white people saying words or phrases IN CONTEXT (especially) that they don't mean to be racist or offensive about people of color or other oppressed groups that I am quite sure you can ask practically anyone in such groups to provide examples. It happens ALL OF THE TIME.

"You are so well spoken"
Biden even did this once about Obama.

"You're one of the good ones"

Referring to groups of black people as "thugs"

There was even a recent movie, "Dear White People" intended to address this entire topic (microagressions).

Posse was a word used by the inner city back in the 1990s and 2000s to describe cliques or crews.

Phil is outdated and LeBron doesn't like being criticized

This is basic human interaction stuff. Lebron's jimmies were ruffled by Phil's use of the word posse. I don't see racial tones in Phil use of word posse. Group of friends, families, animals, whatever that hangs together and clearly make decisions together is a dear group aka posse. Anyone can have a posse. Phil hit this home to Lebron. It shows how irresponsible LBJ is and his reaction is because of racial tones from use of word posse? Crybaby like those easily offended by WORDS. Words are powerful my friends. Ask Phil

KNICKSdom wrote:This is basic human interaction stuff. Lebron's jimmies were ruffled by Phil's use of the word posse. I don't see racial tones in Phil use of word posse. Group of friends, families, animals, whatever that hangs together and clearly make decisions together is a dear group aka posse. Anyone can have a posse. Phil hit this home to Lebron. It shows how irresponsible LBJ is and his reaction is because of racial tones from use of word posse? Crybaby like those easily offended by WORDS. Words are powerful my friends. Ask Phil

If your argument and several others here is so accurate then where did Lebron this notion from? He made it up out of thin air?

http://time.com/4573913/phil-jackson-is-...

Jackson bares the blame here. According to academic experts who’ve closely studied race relations, James had every right to be offended. At its most benign, “posse” calls to mind hangers-on orbiting a celebrity or athlete, particularly an African-American basketball player. So by referring to James’ business team as a “posse,” Jackson linguistically derides their credentials, whether intentional or not.

A 2002 Sports Illustrated story exploring the growth and dynamics of NBA entourages noted that, “they’re often viewed with suspicion–and sometimes it’s justified–but many NBA players couldn’t cope without their posses.” The story touched on the racial elements:

Then there’s this nettlesome question: Would there be any such angst if the entourage members weren’t black and didn’t wear billowy jeans and copious jewelry? No, says [Alvin] Poussaint, the Harvard psychiatrist, “these are African-Americans making lots of money, and having these entourages looks like loose spending, and I think that turns people off.”

So who to believe when it comes to understanding human behavior, random folks on a message board or a Harvard psychiatrist??

Bottom line is many whites seek to avoid responsibility about our own participation in such behavior quite regularly. It is uncomfortable and often feels stigmatizing, so we prefer to deny at first.

PresIke wrote:

KNICKSdom wrote:This is basic human interaction stuff. Lebron's jimmies were ruffled by Phil's use of the word posse. I don't see racial tones in Phil use of word posse. Group of friends, families, animals, whatever that hangs together and clearly make decisions together is a dear group aka posse. Anyone can have a posse. Phil hit this home to Lebron. It shows how irresponsible LBJ is and his reaction is because of racial tones from use of word posse? Crybaby like those easily offended by WORDS. Words are powerful my friends. Ask Phil

If your argument and several others here is so accurate then where did Lebron this notion from? He made it up out of thin air?

http://time.com/4573913/phil-jackson-is-...

Jackson bares the blame here. According to academic experts who’ve closely studied race relations, James had every right to be offended. At its most benign, “posse” calls to mind hangers-on orbiting a celebrity or athlete, particularly an African-American basketball player. So by referring to James’ business team as a “posse,” Jackson linguistically derides their credentials, whether intentional or not.

A 2002 Sports Illustrated story exploring the growth and dynamics of NBA entourages noted that, “they’re often viewed with suspicion–and sometimes it’s justified–but many NBA players couldn’t cope without their posses.” The story touched on the racial elements:

Then there’s this nettlesome question: Would there be any such angst if the entourage members weren’t black and didn’t wear billowy jeans and copious jewelry? No, says [Alvin] Poussaint, the Harvard psychiatrist, “these are African-Americans making lots of money, and having these entourages looks like loose spending, and I think that turns people off.”

So who to believe when it comes to understanding human behavior, random folks on a message board or a Harvard psychiatrist??

Bottom line is many whites seek to avoid responsibility about our own participation in such behavior quite regularly. It is uncomfortable and often feels stigmatizing, so we prefer to deny at first.

How ironic (and pathetic) that the Time magazine writer (and editor), in an article lecturing on the meaning of the word "posse" undermine their credibility as a "word authority", by saying in the same breath that Jax "bares the blame" rather than the correct "bears". So what other finer nuances of language would you like to teach us about today?

Could've used a different word but man Maverick sounds like a huge baby like the world is going to end. He falls right in line with current American climate

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:entourage is the same as posse, I think they are way to sensitive.

No matter what word he used, they would have taken offense to it. Bottom line is they are insecure to the idea that they rode LeBron's coat-tails to get where they are today. While they deserve credit for taking advantage of a great opportunity, there is a 99.9999% chance we would not know who Maverick Carter is without LeBron's need to help out his buddies. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Sure sounds like it

martin wrote:

callmened wrote:wow! when my wife and I first heard the quote we were offended - but keep in mind the CONTEXT of things.

I don't get why you would feel offended. Here is the context:

"It had to hurt when they lost LeBron," Jackson said. "That was definitely a slap in the face. But there were a lot of little things that came out of that. When LeBron was playing with the Heat, they went to Cleveland, and he wanted to spend the night. They don't do overnights. Teams just don't. So now [coach Erik] Spoelstra has to text Riley and say, 'What do I do in this situation?' And Pat, who has iron-fist rules, answers, 'You are on the plane. You are with this team.' You can't hold up the whole team because you and your mom and your posse want to spend an extra night in Cleveland.

The context suggests that Phil was talking about the people LeBron was hanging out with, including his family (mom).

Why were you offended by this?

I've always had 2 definitions of the word posse. One was the old, western type, the other describes a group of friends or people that hang out together.

Thinking back to modern times the word Posse was used with a negative connotation by white anti nba folks when criticizing Allen Iverson and his hanger-ons. In essence his posse bankrupted him. Critics really wanted to call them ghetto gangtas. Posse was more politically correct. So I fully understand Mavericks point of view. Clearly Phil unintentionally hit a nerve. Maverick is overly sensitive about his role and standing in Lebron's life. "Business partners" vs "Fortunate Hang-on" All you have to do is read his words. Making a huge deal out something while real world problems mount around the globe. just. Now he and Bron will have to deal with the public backlash which is nothing new to Lebron. Always tripping over his words.

holfresh wrote:If Tom Brady had a group of friends he grew up with and they formed a business group and were successful as LeBron's group, they would never be referred to as a posse...Never..That's the difference..

Exactly that is the inferred connotation of the word posse in these modern times. Still they are being ridiculously sensitive and showing the world how soft they are. These are suppose to be successful grown men. They come out of this looking extremely small.

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:Insofar as I can tell, it is LeBron and Maverick who are injecting race into the term posse.

But maybe this is outside of my scope and understanding of the phrase posse. I've never heard it in the terms of trying to demean anyone or referring to specific race. That's new to me.

and thats where i disagree! i dont think racism is taking place so no need to inject race.

but then again, i understand WHY a black person would react like that right now! right now several (not all) black people are scared, pissed and sensitive and think everyone is trying to destroy us. that doesnt mean its correct or even rational but thats the reality right now

I can assure you Lebron and his peeps don't feel any of those feelings. This is a classic case of race baiting after being called out on something that is probably accurate judging by their sensitivity.

https://medium.com/next-impulse-sports/t...

Tom Brady’s Kentucky Derby Entourage Looks Like Fun

Courtesy of Tom Brady’s Facebook
The Kentucky Derby is taking place this weekend and Tom Brady and his posse of friends and teammates are ready to party.
Every person looks like they’re ready to attend the Derby except for Rob Gronkowski (and the khaki suited gentleman to Gronk’s left), who looks like he’s ready to attend a Miami Vice theme party.
Hopefully, Julian Edelman or Danny Amendola pulls Gronk aside and gives him some fashion tips this weekend. Because, damn does Amendola look fly.
Or, considering that ex-Patriots wide receiver Wes Welker is going to be returning to the Derby this year, perhaps Tom’s entire crew could get some fashion tips from the undisputed king of Kentucky Derby wear.

BRIGGS wrote:Arnold Palmer--yep he also has a posse

egend has it that one day at the height of his powers in the early 1960s, pro golfer Arnold Palmer was at the Cherry Hills Country Club in Cherry Hills, Colorado for one reason or another. Reportedly, Palmer asked one of the bartenders to mix him a special drink, the ingredients of which must have been so gauche that the Tom Cruise-wannabe behind the bar initially refused to sully his Boston shaker with the likes. At this, Palmer allegedly became so incensed with the mixologist’s cheek that he flew into a mild rage, threatened to get snooty, and, if his request was further denied, promised to get downright snotty.

Blanching at the prospects of facing down a murderously thirsty PGA Master and his posse, the barman wisely caved and quickly built Palmer’s beverage: a tall glass of ice, filled halfway with lemonade, and topped off with iced tea.

The drink has since earned the reputation of being the black-and-tan of the country club, the virgin Queen of 19th hole quaffers, and to this day, such a mixture is still known colloquially as an “Arnold Palmer.” Most barkeeps will know what you want when you order one by name, although some restaurant waitstaff may fix you with a funny look, since it is kind of a fusty old drink; something for teetotalers or closet lushes who want to keep their vice on the down-low. And while it hasn’t stopped marketers from pushing pre-packaged versions onto the masses, at least it comes with a readymade practical joke:

Yes I can buy Phil was thinking along those lines with absolutely no racial connotations whatsoever. Someone should get the Brady, Luck & Arnie posse articles over to Lebron and co asap before they dig a bigger hole for pea-size brained selves.

VCoug wrote:I'm a white guy and I totally get where Lebron is coming from. I highly doubt that if Lebron's agent and business manager were 50 year old white guys that Phil would be referring to them as a "posse". And, for the record, here's what Phil thinks of as a posse:

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/Rachel__Nichols/status/798637656603115520

Click here to view the Tweet

Ok that confirms this has nothing to do with race and everything to do with leeches and hangers-on and why Phil's words hit a delicate nerve

callmened wrote:

fishmike wrote:

callmened wrote:i think most people here think that the word "posse" wasn't a big deal (including myself). It might have been "dismissive" at worst but not OFFENSIVE or even RACIST

but what concerns me is folks here don't understand WHY LeBron is so sensitive. a lot of black people (not all) are upset, scared and on edge about the racial climate in this country. if this came up during some other time, he wouldn't care as much (he's been called worse). I just hope folks cut LeBron some slack for his emotional "outburst". that's not condoning his actions (implying that phil is a racist) but I hope people UNDERSTAND where hes coming from (a place of hurt, skeptism, fear etc)

again, when I first heard the phil quote, my wife and I were like WTFFF. why? cuz were emotional now! (i told the story of how we were watching family feud the other day. a man said "spain had the most beautiful looking people - our response was WTFFFFFFF. right now ANYTHING can send black people over the edge because were HIGHLY sensitive right now). after we cooled down, we concluded its not a big deal - probably a miscommunication and the 2 need to talk it out

#empathy - it hink this country needs more empathy to understand where another person is coming from, feeling etc. doesn't mean we need to agree - but just try to understand their point of view.

He should be sensitive. So should you. The smaller half of America elected a man who openly looks down on your race. Literally. Women should feel exactly the same.

My problem is this type of behavior is counterproductive. Does this help race relations? Or does it establish an egg shells type culture where the wrong choice of words taken out of context has simply unfair repercussions? Here is a case where Lebron could have used this to illuminate how words can imply the lack of respect for accomplished men (as Gustav mentioned above), given Phil a pass and said "we need to look deeper at this stuff and continue to strive for change" etc etc.. instead it pushed more people away and accomplished exactly the opposite of what Lebron says he wants.

great point!

well that's where we might be expecting TOO MUCH from LeBron and these athletes. Lebron isn't an expert in discussing race relations - and I doubt his PR team is. he just reacted and spoke out! hopefully both sides can talk because I do think this was a misunderstanding.

He already proved to us how small minded he is when it comes to racial and social issues. Quick to condemn and race bait on social media without having all the facts

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:From a coaching and GM/President view, a player whose needs are greater than others are not look upon favorably. Cav's were non too happy with Lebron at times in his first stint and Riles as well. Lebron has made his point many times that he is the one empowered with a franchise.
does that sit well with management at times? Likely not.
Has phil ever been "racist" in his career? if not, give him the benefit of the doubt.

I agree. Ask Clyde or Willis if they think Phil is a racist then put this to bed.

And ask Clyde what he thinks of Lebron. He's been a very harsh critic of his character outside of being the best basketball player in the universe

jrodmc wrote:I would have thought Lebron, at his current level of business and professional maturity, would be able to own up to his past of being a documented flopper, playoff quitter, and enabled Millennial who demanded special treatment at that time. He's alienated teammates and coaches everywhere he's been, and doesn't GAS.

This has nothing to do with race.

Phil's a left wing Zen goober who's lived most of his life on the West Coast and Montana hugging trees and writing books about his ego. I'm absolutely sure he's voted the Republican party line his entire life. He played during the '70's and I'm sure Clyde would have documented any racist tendencies pretty clearly, since he wrote about everything else with his roomie.

LeQ is portrayed in a 12 year old story as being a non-team oriented drama queen. Surprise Surprise Surprise.
So, of course Phil is the new David Duke, putting down the Shining Light of Incredible Capitalism of the 21st century and His Highly Esteemed Business Colleagues.

Oh wait, "colleagues"? Is that insinuating they should be white?

Phil hasn't voted since 1972. It has been well documented

martin wrote:

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:I am not at all trying to pretend that Phil wasn't trying to get under that skin. It's EXACTLY what he was doing. He was 100% pointing out that LeBron was getting special treatment. That was Phil's whole point. But inflammatory because of the use of the word posse? I find that a stretch.

Also, I am not presenting any type of plausible deniability. I am presenting different takes.

that's exactly it...and a sensitive LeBron (from the racial tension) interpreted that as something it wasnt

You know what would have been a great response from LeBron?

"You know, I don't really like the characterization of posse and would have preferred that Phil used a different term, these are both my business partners and friends and family and to me the word posse is a bit demeaning to me. But for real, me and my Cleveland Cavaliers posse are concentrating on repeating a championship so I don't worry about it too much and don't have too much time to put into the shit that comes out of Phil's mouth; Phil and his posse should spend more time worrying about getting over .500 and making it into the playoffs".

BAM

And he chose not to go that route because in his heart of hearts he knows, maybe even subconsciously, that those guys aren't really his business partners and colleagues. They are his childhood hometown friends or "posse"

martin wrote:

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:I am not at all trying to pretend that Phil wasn't trying to get under that skin. It's EXACTLY what he was doing. He was 100% pointing out that LeBron was getting special treatment. That was Phil's whole point. But inflammatory because of the use of the word posse? I find that a stretch.

Also, I am not presenting any type of plausible deniability. I am presenting different takes.

that's exactly it...and a sensitive LeBron (from the racial tension) interpreted that as something it wasnt

You know what would have been a great response from LeBron?

"You know, I don't really like the characterization of posse and would have preferred that Phil used a different term, these are both my business partners and friends and family and to me the word posse is a bit demeaning to me. But for real, me and my Cleveland Cavaliers posse are concentrating on repeating a championship so I don't worry about it too much and don't have too much time to put into the shit that comes out of Phil's mouth; Phil and his posse should spend more time worrying about getting over .500 and making it into the playoffs".

BAM

exactly. I think he went to far by saying "if he were white would that term be used?" but like I said, dude was emotionally hurt (especially during these recent events) + he's not a expertise in these things. he probably DID misinterpret it the wrong way because hes sensitive - and I really think he deserves a pass for that. but his response could've been better

yeah we get it, you think LeBron is the emotionally girly type

Dude is trying to portray his group (notices that I was being as PC as I could there) as a high level business team that should be respected... and his first response is an emotional one. That's not a good look and shows how far he has to go?

Ha exactly. I'm just getting caught here but that is exactly what was going on in my head some pages back. That harsh fact should put an end to this silly
Discussion here and in the national media