reason I ask is cause I'm baffled a guy with derrick roses athleticism is a bad defender. Staying in front of a guy takes speed,doesn't it? I mean, by that logic Ricky Rubio should be a worse defender than derrick because he's def less athletic. But its not true, Rubio is a much better defender. Maybe derrick just doesn't have the mind for it? Being able to predict a players moves and remember his tendencies. Maybe its just a lack of will?
It's something we've discussed on this board many times. There are different aspects of defense though so it depends on which one you want to talk about? Honestly, there are too many aspects for me to list so which one do you have in mind? Perimeter one on one? Low post one on one? Help? Getting around screens? Shot blocking? Rebounding?
Keep in mind, being a consistent great defender requires IQ, great fitness, at least some athleticism, determination, timing, a good sense of awareness as well as communication. It all might as well be a skill even though some of the aspects of defense doesn't require a skill level like shooting. So in a sense, yes, it is a skill.
With that said, you still need to put the effort in so if you have all those good qualities but don't try, you might as well just be Homer Simpson on defense. Kind of like Stephon Marbury back in the day.
Both.
I hated Larry Bird. But he was a great defender. Probably better in terms of team d, but still a solid 1 on 1 defender.
It's taking the right angles, knowing how to position yourself vs. the ball.
franco12 wrote:Both.I hated Larry Bird. But he was a great defender. Probably better in terms of team d, but still a solid 1 on 1 defender.
It's taking the right angles, knowing how to position yourself vs. the ball.
It's reaction time also. The brain has to identify and respond to what's happening instantly.
100% Desire... basketball it's a team sports. Everyone has to want to play defense. have 2 or three guys giving their attention and the other 2 staring off hoping their guy doesn't get the ball.
If you want to be a great defender, you need exceptional lateral movement IMO. So many players in the NBA can go north and south, but dont work on going east/west. Also good to be able to know when to move closer to the player with the ball and when to move back, keep them off balance. Also have to press the opponent the split second they pick up their dribble.
Its also about pride. You have to develop the same pleasure from making a stop that you have draining a jumper, or dunking the ball. Have to feel the same way about a miss as you do a blown assignment.
GustavBahler wrote:If you want to be a great defender, you need exceptional lateral movement IMO. So many players in the NBA can go north and south, but dont work on going east/west. Also good to be able to know when to move closer to the player with the ball and when to move back, keep them off balance. Also have to press the opponent the split second they pick up their dribble. Its also about pride. You have to develop the same pleasure from making a stop that you have draining a jumper, or dunking the ball. Have to feel the same way about a miss as you do a blown assignment.
Its not always about lateral movement. Show me a guy with great lateral movement and I'll show you a guy that's liable to get his ankles broke....
It's about positioning, timing and patience....
Pride is a definite though. I say desire... all the same thing. Some guys don't care. They just want the ball back so they can try to score back.
The easiest thing to teach in my opinion is defense. That's why everyone sucks at it. Nobody is teaching defense, but there is a million coaches out there with ball handling camps.
One thing I can't stand about coaches? They always tell the kids to stay down and move your feet.... but what do you do with your hands? Where are your eyes? I see guys staring at the guy the are defending in the eyes like they are about to kiss the fuck out of them. How are you defending anyone when you are trying to get freaky with them. Hands need to be busy making yourself bigger and ready when the ball is open to deflect.
Whew....
EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If you want to be a great defender, you need exceptional lateral movement IMO. So many players in the NBA can go north and south, but dont work on going east/west. Also good to be able to know when to move closer to the player with the ball and when to move back, keep them off balance. Also have to press the opponent the split second they pick up their dribble. Its also about pride. You have to develop the same pleasure from making a stop that you have draining a jumper, or dunking the ball. Have to feel the same way about a miss as you do a blown assignment.
Its not always about lateral movement. Show me a guy with great lateral movement and I'll show you a guy that's liable to get his ankles broke....
It's about positioning, timing and patience....
Pride is a definite though. I say desire... all the same thing. Some guys don't care. They just want the bask back so they can try to score back.
That makes no sense whatsover. No one ever broke my ankles that way (hardly ever in my 20s through later 30s) because they couldnt get around me most of the time, and I went up against some fast SOBs.
That happened because I spent hours working specifically on my lateral movement. Doing drills, calesthenics, it worked. They can't get by you if they cant get around you. It also helps in taking charges, moving in front of the ball handler, having the time to establish yourself, to get the call.
GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If you want to be a great defender, you need exceptional lateral movement IMO. So many players in the NBA can go north and south, but dont work on going east/west. Also good to be able to know when to move closer to the player with the ball and when to move back, keep them off balance. Also have to press the opponent the split second they pick up their dribble. Its also about pride. You have to develop the same pleasure from making a stop that you have draining a jumper, or dunking the ball. Have to feel the same way about a miss as you do a blown assignment.
Its not always about lateral movement. Show me a guy with great lateral movement and I'll show you a guy that's liable to get his ankles broke....
It's about positioning, timing and patience....
Pride is a definite though. I say desire... all the same thing. Some guys don't care. They just want the bask back so they can try to score back.
That makes no sense whatsover. No one ever broke my ankles that way (hardly ever in my 20s through later 30s) because they couldnt get around me most of the time, and I went up against some fast SOBs.
That happened because I spent hours working specifically on my lateral movement. Doing drills, calesthenics, it worked. They can't get by you if they cant get around you. It also helps in taking charges, moving in front of the ball handler, having the time to establish yourself, to get the call.
Are you taking about lateral movement or positioning? Sounds like positioning to me. They couldn't get around you because you had great positioning. Being in shape will help that and you described that you were. Makes perfect sense in every way.
EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If you want to be a great defender, you need exceptional lateral movement IMO. So many players in the NBA can go north and south, but dont work on going east/west. Also good to be able to know when to move closer to the player with the ball and when to move back, keep them off balance. Also have to press the opponent the split second they pick up their dribble. Its also about pride. You have to develop the same pleasure from making a stop that you have draining a jumper, or dunking the ball. Have to feel the same way about a miss as you do a blown assignment.
Its not always about lateral movement. Show me a guy with great lateral movement and I'll show you a guy that's liable to get his ankles broke....
It's about positioning, timing and patience....
Pride is a definite though. I say desire... all the same thing. Some guys don't care. They just want the bask back so they can try to score back.
That makes no sense whatsover. No one ever broke my ankles that way (hardly ever in my 20s through later 30s) because they couldnt get around me most of the time, and I went up against some fast SOBs.
That happened because I spent hours working specifically on my lateral movement. Doing drills, calesthenics, it worked. They can't get by you if they cant get around you. It also helps in taking charges, moving in front of the ball handler, having the time to establish yourself, to get the call.
Are you taking about lateral movement or positioning? Sounds like positioning to me. They couldn't get around you because you had great positioning. Being in shape will help that and you described that you were. Makes perfect sense in every way.
Im talking about a player bringing up the ball, or dribbling the ball in place in a half court set. Every time he tries to go left or right, you are able to stay in front of him no matter what they do try to get around you. Having good lateral movement allows you to push off quickly to the left or right, stay in front of someone. Other skills needed in the paint, but Lateral movement can make a whole world of difference when you are dealing with a speedy ballhandler.
Lots of NBA players in great shape with lousy lateral movement.
GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If you want to be a great defender, you need exceptional lateral movement IMO. So many players in the NBA can go north and south, but dont work on going east/west. Also good to be able to know when to move closer to the player with the ball and when to move back, keep them off balance. Also have to press the opponent the split second they pick up their dribble. Its also about pride. You have to develop the same pleasure from making a stop that you have draining a jumper, or dunking the ball. Have to feel the same way about a miss as you do a blown assignment.
Its not always about lateral movement. Show me a guy with great lateral movement and I'll show you a guy that's liable to get his ankles broke....
It's about positioning, timing and patience....
Pride is a definite though. I say desire... all the same thing. Some guys don't care. They just want the bask back so they can try to score back.
That makes no sense whatsover. No one ever broke my ankles that way (hardly ever in my 20s through later 30s) because they couldnt get around me most of the time, and I went up against some fast SOBs.
That happened because I spent hours working specifically on my lateral movement. Doing drills, calesthenics, it worked. They can't get by you if they cant get around you. It also helps in taking charges, moving in front of the ball handler, having the time to establish yourself, to get the call.
Are you taking about lateral movement or positioning? Sounds like positioning to me. They couldn't get around you because you had great positioning. Being in shape will help that and you described that you were. Makes perfect sense in every way.
Im talking about a player bringing up the ball, or dribbling the ball in place in a half court set. Every time he tries to go left or right, you are able to stay in front of him no matter what they do try to get around you. Having good lateral movement allows you to push off quickly to the left or right, stay in front of someone. Other skills needed in the paint, but Lateral movement can make a whole world of difference when you are dealing with a speedy ballhandler.
Lots of NBA players in great shape with lousy lateral movement.
Were talking basketball. Bringing up the ball and half court sets is all basketball. I'm not talking about anything specific.
You are obsessed with lateral movement. I agree it's important but if you have poor lateral movement you still can be an effect defender if you position yourself properly.
I tore my acl playing ball when i was 25 and never was the same. I tell you this. I used to salivate when guys thought they could stay with me. I was crossing you up and spinning on you all day long. You were playing right infi my hands. That's why my knees are shot now. One thing that I hated was guys with funky positioning. Usually older players. It throws your rythmn off.
if you look at the greatest on-ball defenders seems to possess bother elite athleticism AND skill/will. Think about it, Kawai Leonard, Paul George, Lebron, Winslow.
All incredible athletes, but then you got guys like Rose, who were never really great on-ball defenders, even before his injury. It makes no sense to me, I guess he just doesn't have the mind for it. But then a guy like Kirk Heinrich or even Stockton, both average athletes, but were very good defenders.
It's very puzzling to me. I actually enjoy playing defense when I play basketball. Its the best way to get in shape by far, way harder on cardio then offense. I'm just a average to below average athlete so it's super hard for me to stay in front of drives.
EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If you want to be a great defender, you need exceptional lateral movement IMO. So many players in the NBA can go north and south, but dont work on going east/west. Also good to be able to know when to move closer to the player with the ball and when to move back, keep them off balance. Also have to press the opponent the split second they pick up their dribble. Its also about pride. You have to develop the same pleasure from making a stop that you have draining a jumper, or dunking the ball. Have to feel the same way about a miss as you do a blown assignment.
Its not always about lateral movement. Show me a guy with great lateral movement and I'll show you a guy that's liable to get his ankles broke....
It's about positioning, timing and patience....
Pride is a definite though. I say desire... all the same thing. Some guys don't care. They just want the bask back so they can try to score back.
That makes no sense whatsover. No one ever broke my ankles that way (hardly ever in my 20s through later 30s) because they couldnt get around me most of the time, and I went up against some fast SOBs.
That happened because I spent hours working specifically on my lateral movement. Doing drills, calesthenics, it worked. They can't get by you if they cant get around you. It also helps in taking charges, moving in front of the ball handler, having the time to establish yourself, to get the call.
Are you taking about lateral movement or positioning? Sounds like positioning to me. They couldn't get around you because you had great positioning. Being in shape will help that and you described that you were. Makes perfect sense in every way.
Im talking about a player bringing up the ball, or dribbling the ball in place in a half court set. Every time he tries to go left or right, you are able to stay in front of him no matter what they do try to get around you. Having good lateral movement allows you to push off quickly to the left or right, stay in front of someone. Other skills needed in the paint, but Lateral movement can make a whole world of difference when you are dealing with a speedy ballhandler.
Lots of NBA players in great shape with lousy lateral movement.
Were talking basketball. Bringing up the ball and half court sets is all basketball. I'm not talking about anything specific.
You are obsessed with lateral movement. I agree it's important but if you have poor lateral movement you still can be an effect defender if you position yourself properly.
I tore my acl playing ball when i was 25 and never was the same. I tell you this. I used to salivate when guys thought they could stay with me. I was crossing you up and spinning on you all day long. You were playing right infi my hands. That's why my knees are shot now. One thing that I hated was guys with funky positioning. Usually older players. It throws your rythmn off.
You were asking me to be more specific, dont blame me for doing exactly what you asked. I have a limb discrepancy between my left and right leg. Chiropractor said it was pretty bad. Caused me all sorts of problems with my back as I got older, also put me at a big disadvantage in sports.
Its tough moving laterally without this problem. By the time I had finished working on my lateral movement in my mid 20s, I could shut down almost anyone, guys with NBA level speed. If Im harping on it, its because it allowed me to play D better than most. Thats what really gets your ankles broken, not being able to move well laterally.
Defense is a mentally everyone in the NBA can be a great defender... they have to believe as a collective group that no one is going to score without a hand in there face... look at the pistons team with Wallace and Rasheed they weren't the most talented or athletic group they bought in as a collective group to work harder then any team on defense or we aren't going to loose one game because we played bad defense... once horny installs that kind of mentality defensively this team is going to be dangerous
KP4Life wrote:if you look at the greatest on-ball defenders seems to possess bother elite athleticism AND skill/will. Think about it, Kawai Leonard, Paul George, Lebron, Winslow. All incredible athletes, but then you got guys like Rose, who were never really great on-ball defenders, even before his injury. It makes no sense to me, I guess he just doesn't have the mind for it. But then a guy like Kirk Heinrich or even Stockton, both average athletes, but were very good defenders.
It's very puzzling to me. I actually enjoy playing defense when I play basketball. Its the best way to get in shape by far, way harder on cardio then offense. I'm just a average to below average athlete so it's super hard for me to stay in front of drives.
Where do guys like Bruce Bowen, Alvin Robertson, Metta World peace, raja bell, John starks, Derek Harper, Tony Allen etc fit in the discussion?
Like the point you made with Hinrich and Stockton... it's not about athleticism. Guys got to have the desire and they have to know how to position themselves hide their shortcomings
GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If you want to be a great defender, you need exceptional lateral movement IMO. So many players in the NBA can go north and south, but dont work on going east/west. Also good to be able to know when to move closer to the player with the ball and when to move back, keep them off balance. Also have to press the opponent the split second they pick up their dribble. Its also about pride. You have to develop the same pleasure from making a stop that you have draining a jumper, or dunking the ball. Have to feel the same way about a miss as you do a blown assignment.
Its not always about lateral movement. Show me a guy with great lateral movement and I'll show you a guy that's liable to get his ankles broke....
It's about positioning, timing and patience....
Pride is a definite though. I say desire... all the same thing. Some guys don't care. They just want the bask back so they can try to score back.
That makes no sense whatsover. No one ever broke my ankles that way (hardly ever in my 20s through later 30s) because they couldnt get around me most of the time, and I went up against some fast SOBs.
That happened because I spent hours working specifically on my lateral movement. Doing drills, calesthenics, it worked. They can't get by you if they cant get around you. It also helps in taking charges, moving in front of the ball handler, having the time to establish yourself, to get the call.
Are you taking about lateral movement or positioning? Sounds like positioning to me. They couldn't get around you because you had great positioning. Being in shape will help that and you described that you were. Makes perfect sense in every way.
Im talking about a player bringing up the ball, or dribbling the ball in place in a half court set. Every time he tries to go left or right, you are able to stay in front of him no matter what they do try to get around you. Having good lateral movement allows you to push off quickly to the left or right, stay in front of someone. Other skills needed in the paint, but Lateral movement can make a whole world of difference when you are dealing with a speedy ballhandler.
Lots of NBA players in great shape with lousy lateral movement.
Were talking basketball. Bringing up the ball and half court sets is all basketball. I'm not talking about anything specific.
You are obsessed with lateral movement. I agree it's important but if you have poor lateral movement you still can be an effect defender if you position yourself properly.
I tore my acl playing ball when i was 25 and never was the same. I tell you this. I used to salivate when guys thought they could stay with me. I was crossing you up and spinning on you all day long. You were playing right infi my hands. That's why my knees are shot now. One thing that I hated was guys with funky positioning. Usually older players. It throws your rythmn off.
You were asking me to be more specific, dont blame me for doing exactly what you asked. I have a limb discrepancy between my left and right leg. Chiropractor said it was pretty bad. Caused me all sorts of problems with my back as I got older, also put me at a big disadvantage in sports.
Its tough moving laterally without this problem. By the time I had finished working on my lateral movement in my mid 20s, I could shut down almost anyone, guys with NBA level speed. If Im harping on it, its because it allowed me to play D better than most. Thats what really gets your ankles broken, not being able to move well laterally.
I didn't ask you to be more specific, lol... I mean you can scroll up and see if didn't ask you anything other than admit the lateral movement/positioning point.
Getting crossed up has every thing to do with overzealous defenders. If you are quick to cut me off then you will not stop the combo move that's coming your way.
I loved defense too though. Stopping the initial move is not the problem one on one. It's the second and third counter moved that will get you.
EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EnySpree wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If you want to be a great defender, you need exceptional lateral movement IMO. So many players in the NBA can go north and south, but dont work on going east/west. Also good to be able to know when to move closer to the player with the ball and when to move back, keep them off balance. Also have to press the opponent the split second they pick up their dribble. Its also about pride. You have to develop the same pleasure from making a stop that you have draining a jumper, or dunking the ball. Have to feel the same way about a miss as you do a blown assignment.
Its not always about lateral movement. Show me a guy with great lateral movement and I'll show you a guy that's liable to get his ankles broke....
It's about positioning, timing and patience....
Pride is a definite though. I say desire... all the same thing. Some guys don't care. They just want the bask back so they can try to score back.
That makes no sense whatsover. No one ever broke my ankles that way (hardly ever in my 20s through later 30s) because they couldnt get around me most of the time, and I went up against some fast SOBs.
That happened because I spent hours working specifically on my lateral movement. Doing drills, calesthenics, it worked. They can't get by you if they cant get around you. It also helps in taking charges, moving in front of the ball handler, having the time to establish yourself, to get the call.
Are you taking about lateral movement or positioning? Sounds like positioning to me. They couldn't get around you because you had great positioning. Being in shape will help that and you described that you were. Makes perfect sense in every way.
Im talking about a player bringing up the ball, or dribbling the ball in place in a half court set. Every time he tries to go left or right, you are able to stay in front of him no matter what they do try to get around you. Having good lateral movement allows you to push off quickly to the left or right, stay in front of someone. Other skills needed in the paint, but Lateral movement can make a whole world of difference when you are dealing with a speedy ballhandler.
Lots of NBA players in great shape with lousy lateral movement.
Were talking basketball. Bringing up the ball and half court sets is all basketball. I'm not talking about anything specific.
You are obsessed with lateral movement. I agree it's important but if you have poor lateral movement you still can be an effect defender if you position yourself properly.
I tore my acl playing ball when i was 25 and never was the same. I tell you this. I used to salivate when guys thought they could stay with me. I was crossing you up and spinning on you all day long. You were playing right infi my hands. That's why my knees are shot now. One thing that I hated was guys with funky positioning. Usually older players. It throws your rythmn off.
You were asking me to be more specific, dont blame me for doing exactly what you asked. I have a limb discrepancy between my left and right leg. Chiropractor said it was pretty bad. Caused me all sorts of problems with my back as I got older, also put me at a big disadvantage in sports.
Its tough moving laterally without this problem. By the time I had finished working on my lateral movement in my mid 20s, I could shut down almost anyone, guys with NBA level speed. If Im harping on it, its because it allowed me to play D better than most. Thats what really gets your ankles broken, not being able to move well laterally.
I didn't ask you to be more specific, lol... I mean you can scroll up and see if didn't ask you anything other than admit the lateral movement/positioning point.
Getting crossed up has every thing to do with overzealous defenders. If you are quick to cut me off then you will not stop the combo move that's coming your way.
I loved defense too though. Stopping the initial move is not the problem one on one. It's the second and third counter moved that will get you.
Didn't matter how many moves they had when I was defending them. 
2 way players are rare. An elite scorer might be more valuable expending energy on offense where a player with limited skill can have a career using a high motor, desire and skill.
Can Melo be a better defender? perhaps, but at what cost?
Also, those guys don't make max money.
Maybe my argument is weak because there are great 2 way players? Yes, they are special.
Will, position, leverage and angles. Having the will and knowledge of the rest will make you a very good defender. Of course you will also need adequate lateral movement with good hips. If you can't turn your hips fluidly then defense will be hard.
