Knicks · D.Rose or B.Jennings or both? (page 2)
fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:I dont believe that is the case at all... Jennings has no bird rights. He's a 1 year rental. If we resign him it means using cap space which means renouncing Rose. This is what makes this a tough decision. If we make a FA splash its because we dont bring back Rose OR Jennings.fishmike wrote:its a good question. The problem with Rose is if he doesnt have those mad hops and quickness he's a pretty bad basketball player.I think what we are seeing with Jennings is he can stink shooting the ball (2-6, 0-4 from downtown last night) but still be a high impact player. Rose however needs to score, something he is very good at.
There is a money crunch also... based on last year's market Jennings is playing himself into a big payday. When guys like Turner and Crabbe are getting $15-$18mm what is Jennings worth? I think his current contract means we cant keep both.
The nice thing about having them under contract is that we can go over the cap to keep them.I'd be in favor of keeping both on reasonable contracts - but it's very early. Let's see how they hold up over a full season. Time will tell.
This season to me is about enjoying what we have. It might be Melo's last really good season. It reminds me of the 2012-3 season where it was pretty obvious it was a one season run. Maybe it can be two. Maybe DRose learns how to be a great point guard without needing to dunk. His quickness is still there, as is his bball skill.
I'm just in the wait and see camp. I could see a scenario where we make the ECF and I could see a scenario where we get bounced in the first round. Just enjoy the ride.
Yeah the cap is going up so we will have no problem bringing both back if we chose, but we won't be able to sign another big free agent if we do.
With Rose it's more complicated, he's not as smart and makes a lot of stupid plays as well as spectacular. He is still adjusting to a more team ball approach so it remains to be seen how he meshes long term, and if he can tighten up some of his ghastly passing and decisions. However he is a certified killer and blur on the court, and that is not to be undervalued. Plus with his athleticism where it is currently, he is exactly the type of driving threat and shot maker that you ultimately need on your team at the guard position. Trouble with him is that he'll likely want a max contract, which is a totally reasonable expectation from his perspective given the current market, and I'm not convinced I'd want to tie up that much money in him. I think the Knicks have to closely monitor what surfaces in the market and give consideration to going that route. This of course assuming they have a reasonably successful but not miraculous season.
Knixkik wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:I dont believe that is the case at all... Jennings has no bird rights. He's a 1 year rental. If we resign him it means using cap space which means renouncing Rose. This is what makes this a tough decision. If we make a FA splash its because we dont bring back Rose OR Jennings.fishmike wrote:its a good question. The problem with Rose is if he doesnt have those mad hops and quickness he's a pretty bad basketball player.I think what we are seeing with Jennings is he can stink shooting the ball (2-6, 0-4 from downtown last night) but still be a high impact player. Rose however needs to score, something he is very good at.
There is a money crunch also... based on last year's market Jennings is playing himself into a big payday. When guys like Turner and Crabbe are getting $15-$18mm what is Jennings worth? I think his current contract means we cant keep both.
The nice thing about having them under contract is that we can go over the cap to keep them.I'd be in favor of keeping both on reasonable contracts - but it's very early. Let's see how they hold up over a full season. Time will tell.
This season to me is about enjoying what we have. It might be Melo's last really good season. It reminds me of the 2012-3 season where it was pretty obvious it was a one season run. Maybe it can be two. Maybe DRose learns how to be a great point guard without needing to dunk. His quickness is still there, as is his bball skill.
I'm just in the wait and see camp. I could see a scenario where we make the ECF and I could see a scenario where we get bounced in the first round. Just enjoy the ride.
Yeah the cap is going up so we will have no problem bringing both back if we chose, but we won't be able to sign another big free agent if we do.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2016/07/07/nba-salary-cap-projections-lebron-james/86808464/
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york_knicks/
We are at $76mm with no Jennings, Rose or Holiday next year. Cap is projected to be $108mm... so we are looking at just above $30mm. Considering what guys were paid last offseason how we sign Rose for less than $20mm per and Jennings less than $12mm per? Those strike me as BARE minimum and that doesnt include Holiday. Its not a given... not at all.
fishmike wrote:Knixkik wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:I dont believe that is the case at all... Jennings has no bird rights. He's a 1 year rental. If we resign him it means using cap space which means renouncing Rose. This is what makes this a tough decision. If we make a FA splash its because we dont bring back Rose OR Jennings.fishmike wrote:its a good question. The problem with Rose is if he doesnt have those mad hops and quickness he's a pretty bad basketball player.I think what we are seeing with Jennings is he can stink shooting the ball (2-6, 0-4 from downtown last night) but still be a high impact player. Rose however needs to score, something he is very good at.
There is a money crunch also... based on last year's market Jennings is playing himself into a big payday. When guys like Turner and Crabbe are getting $15-$18mm what is Jennings worth? I think his current contract means we cant keep both.
The nice thing about having them under contract is that we can go over the cap to keep them.I'd be in favor of keeping both on reasonable contracts - but it's very early. Let's see how they hold up over a full season. Time will tell.
This season to me is about enjoying what we have. It might be Melo's last really good season. It reminds me of the 2012-3 season where it was pretty obvious it was a one season run. Maybe it can be two. Maybe DRose learns how to be a great point guard without needing to dunk. His quickness is still there, as is his bball skill.
I'm just in the wait and see camp. I could see a scenario where we make the ECF and I could see a scenario where we get bounced in the first round. Just enjoy the ride.
Yeah the cap is going up so we will have no problem bringing both back if we chose, but we won't be able to sign another big free agent if we do.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2016/07/07/nba-salary-cap-projections-lebron-james/86808464/
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york_knicks/We are at $76mm with no Jennings, Rose or Holiday next year. Cap is projected to be $108mm... so we are looking at just above $30mm. Considering what guys were paid last offseason how we sign Rose for less than $20mm per and Jennings less than $12mm per? Those strike me as BARE minimum and that doesnt include Holiday. Its not a given... not at all.
Good point. It's not as obvious as i thought. Might have to try to move a guy like O'Quinn for starters.
Knixkik wrote:I am confident if we have a good year, and both seem to enjoy playing here, we can resign both. I think both will make it work and want to come back as long as they get a contract within reason of what they can get in the open market. If i had to chose between the 2, i would pick Jennings because he will come a little cheaper, has proven his willingness to play as a starter or 6th man, fits better with different lineups, and is more of a "pure" PG. He is also a year younger as a bonus. But unless there is an obvious upgrade available, i would say resign both because it is proving to be a solid combo and both are even capable of playing together. Plus i think both are capable of playing 4 more years of good basketball at the level they are at.
Yeah i actually love when JH has them both on the court together in a small ball lineup of BJ, DR, CL, Melo and KP. They both can easily play 4 more years of really good basketball, D.Rose is only like 27 which seems like he's been around so much longer.
Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Yeah, we'll worry about PGs next summer when the time comes. But remember, all it takes is one irrational owner to get someone paid.
Is it Jennings, or the system?
I like the kid and what he is doing. "for the money" is a factor and it depends on the market. Does he get "starter money" or not?
As for Rose, same thing: "is he a max player". I don't care what he wants, what would the market pay him?And where would he go? Who has the money and the need for the position or desire to upgrade?
Like wise, who would be our alternative?Kudo's to phil for all the crying fans did last year to upgrade from Jose, a little patience gave us two Pg's much better than Jose, and it only cost us Ropez (basically).
Im going to just enjoy this tandem until July 1st and perhaps it all gets sorted out by then.
If they both finish this season healthy then both will get paid and Rose will absolutely get max if not from us then from other teams. This is where having our owner is a great thing for us cause he'll pay whatever luxury tax he needs to if it means winning.
BRIGGS wrote:Continuity is great. I would not sign D Rose to a max contract. If he likes it here4 years 68mm is fair
Jennings 3 years 27mm$
17mm per and 9 mm per is fair
Well if those numbers were the case then we won't be re-signing either one of them cause both will get a considerable amount more than that.
newyorker4ever wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Continuity is great. I would not sign D Rose to a max contract. If he likes it here4 years 68mm is fair
Jennings 3 years 27mm$
17mm per and 9 mm per is fairWell if those numbers were the case then we won't be re-signing either one of them cause both will get a considerable amount more than that.
Those are still big offers 17 mm per and 9 mm per isn't a slap in the face. To have a good long lasting team guys need to take a little less-- maybe they will? One thing we do know is that if we are good Dolan will pay
BRIGGS wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Continuity is great. I would not sign D Rose to a max contract. If he likes it here4 years 68mm is fair
Jennings 3 years 27mm$
17mm per and 9 mm per is fairWell if those numbers were the case then we won't be re-signing either one of them cause both will get a considerable amount more than that.
Those are still big offers 17 mm per and 9 mm per isn't a slap in the face. To have a good long lasting team guys need to take a little less-- maybe they will? One thing we do know is that if we are good Dolan will pay
Has any other team outside of Spurs been able to make significant less than market offers to keep players?
They may be big offers in non-NBA workplace, but that isn't what we are talking about, and it would be a slap in the face to both I'd guess.
BRIGGS wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Continuity is great. I would not sign D Rose to a max contract. If he likes it here4 years 68mm is fair
Jennings 3 years 27mm$
17mm per and 9 mm per is fairWell if those numbers were the case then we won't be re-signing either one of them cause both will get a considerable amount more than that.
Those are still big offers 17 mm per and 9 mm per isn't a slap in the face. To have a good long lasting team guys need to take a little less-- maybe they will? One thing we do know is that if we are good Dolan will pay
No, this is an out-of-touch-with-reality perspective, pure wishful thinking not grounded in realism. Sorry. Wish it were feasible, but you're a few years too late with those numbers.
nychamp wrote:BRIGGS wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Continuity is great. I would not sign D Rose to a max contract. If he likes it here4 years 68mm is fair
Jennings 3 years 27mm$
17mm per and 9 mm per is fairWell if those numbers were the case then we won't be re-signing either one of them cause both will get a considerable amount more than that.
Those are still big offers 17 mm per and 9 mm per isn't a slap in the face. To have a good long lasting team guys need to take a little less-- maybe they will? One thing we do know is that if we are good Dolan will pay
No, this is an out-of-touch-with-reality perspective, pure wishful thinking not grounded in realism. Sorry. Wish it were feasible, but you're a few years too late with those numbers.
Yeah if Briggs was close to the prices that players at their level just got then i'd give it a maybe but he's not even really that close. Just look at the money some of these guys just got last off season and that tells you how much B.Jennings and D.Rose will be worth. Evan Turner-4 years $70 mil, E.Foournier--5 years $85 mil, A.Rivers--3 years $35 mil, A.Crabbe--4 years $75 mil, T.Johnson--4 years $50 mil....and the list goes on.
Knicks67 wrote:Personally inclined to resigning Jennings and nabbing a young Pg prospect in the draft, however if Rose and Jennings come cheap enough for a couple more years there is something to be said for keeping that tandem together. No part of me wants Rose back on a max for 4 years, it doesn't make sense with that injury history to tie him down for years.
Generally speaking it takes PGs 3-5 years to mature in the league unless you get a guy who is a top 3 pick who can come in and dominate with athleticism (think Wall, Kyrie, Lillard). Stephen Curry took 4 years to mature, Westbrook didn't explode til 3rd year. All of those guys are top 6 picks. There are a TON of guys who failed as PG drafted from 1-15.
If Rose makes it through the whole year, it'll be a tough decision as to what to offer and for how long. The market is thin for 2017 CP3 (opt out), Lowry (opt out), Jeff Teague, Justin Holiday, Patty Mills. After Rose, CP3 and Lowry you have very flawed guys or a draft pick route. And it'll be a crap shoot every offseason to wait on a front line PG.
Jennings is not on Bird rights so that's a tough position for the Knicks.
Knicks will have about $30M to sign Rose, Jennings, Holiday, 1st round pick.
LT ($6.6M), KOQ ($4.5), Kuz ($3M) have very moveable contracts.
Unless Knicks can get CP3 I think Rose will be back.
martin wrote:I think the ideal play is Rose plays well and gives you 75 games, you give him the 4 years and hope you draft his replacement. KP is 25 at the end of the deal. Whoop de do. You can rebuild around KP/Willy/pick, etc... guys will be 25-26 years old. Keep any talent you can keep.Knicks67 wrote:Personally inclined to resigning Jennings and nabbing a young Pg prospect in the draft, however if Rose and Jennings come cheap enough for a couple more years there is something to be said for keeping that tandem together. No part of me wants Rose back on a max for 4 years, it doesn't make sense with that injury history to tie him down for years.Generally speaking it takes PGs 3-5 years to mature in the league unless you get a guy who is a top 3 pick who can come in and dominate with athleticism (think Wall, Kyrie, Lillard). Stephen Curry took 4 years to mature, Westbrook didn't explode til 3rd year. All of those guys are top 6 picks. There are a TON of guys who failed as PG drafted from 1-15.
If Rose makes it through the whole year, it'll be a tough decision as to what to offer and for how long. The market is thin for 2017 CP3 (opt out), Lowry (opt out), Jeff Teague, Justin Holiday, Patty Mills. After Rose, CP3 and Lowry you have very flawed guys or a draft pick route. And it'll be a crap shoot every offseason to wait on a front line PG.
Jennings is not on Bird rights so that's a tough position for the Knicks.
Knicks will have about $30M to sign Rose, Jennings, Holiday, 1st round pick.
LT ($6.6M), KOQ ($4.5), Kuz ($3M) have very moveable contracts.
Unless Knicks can get CP3 I think Rose will be back.
martin wrote:Knicks67 wrote:Personally inclined to resigning Jennings and nabbing a young Pg prospect in the draft, however if Rose and Jennings come cheap enough for a couple more years there is something to be said for keeping that tandem together. No part of me wants Rose back on a max for 4 years, it doesn't make sense with that injury history to tie him down for years.Generally speaking it takes PGs 3-5 years to mature in the league unless you get a guy who is a top 3 pick who can come in and dominate with athleticism (think Wall, Kyrie, Lillard). Stephen Curry took 4 years to mature, Westbrook didn't explode til 3rd year. All of those guys are top 6 picks. There are a TON of guys who failed as PG drafted from 1-15.
If Rose makes it through the whole year, it'll be a tough decision as to what to offer and for how long. The market is thin for 2017 CP3 (opt out), Lowry (opt out), Jeff Teague, Justin Holiday, Patty Mills. After Rose, CP3 and Lowry you have very flawed guys or a draft pick route. And it'll be a crap shoot every offseason to wait on a front line PG.
Jennings is not on Bird rights so that's a tough position for the Knicks.
Knicks will have about $30M to sign Rose, Jennings, Holiday, 1st round pick.
LT ($6.6M), KOQ ($4.5), Kuz ($3M) have very moveable contracts.
Unless Knicks can get CP3 I think Rose will be back.
I did hear something but can't remember where about maybe 3 weeks ago that Lowry wasn't gonna re-sign with Toronto next season so there's that and then there's the CP3/Melo friend and wedding toast connection and then i see no reason why if we have a good year this year that why D.Rose wouldn't want to stay here so as long as we don't mind going max we'll have our options or should anyway.
martin wrote:Knicks67 wrote:Personally inclined to resigning Jennings and nabbing a young Pg prospect in the draft, however if Rose and Jennings come cheap enough for a couple more years there is something to be said for keeping that tandem together. No part of me wants Rose back on a max for 4 years, it doesn't make sense with that injury history to tie him down for years.Generally speaking it takes PGs 3-5 years to mature in the league unless you get a guy who is a top 3 pick who can come in and dominate with athleticism (think Wall, Kyrie, Lillard). Stephen Curry took 4 years to mature, Westbrook didn't explode til 3rd year. All of those guys are top 6 picks. There are a TON of guys who failed as PG drafted from 1-15.
If Rose makes it through the whole year, it'll be a tough decision as to what to offer and for how long. The market is thin for 2017 CP3 (opt out), Lowry (opt out), Jeff Teague, Justin Holiday, Patty Mills. After Rose, CP3 and Lowry you have very flawed guys or a draft pick route. And it'll be a crap shoot every offseason to wait on a front line PG.
Jennings is not on Bird rights so that's a tough position for the Knicks.
Knicks will have about $30M to sign Rose, Jennings, Holiday, 1st round pick.
LT ($6.6M), KOQ ($4.5), Kuz ($3M) have very moveable contracts.
Unless Knicks can get CP3 I think Rose will be back.
Considering the cap situation, we will probably lose Holiday who will play himself into a nice contract, and try to replace his production on a cheap contract and in the draft. We will probably try to fit rose and jennings into the available cap space.
martin wrote:I don't think the Pelicans have lost since Holiday has come back. If the Knicks pass on Rose I think Holiday would be a great pick up. Nola has Frazier and Moore so they might let him go. I think he probably stays there though. They seemed to be very supportive of his family situation.Knicks67 wrote:Personally inclined to resigning Jennings and nabbing a young Pg prospect in the draft, however if Rose and Jennings come cheap enough for a couple more years there is something to be said for keeping that tandem together. No part of me wants Rose back on a max for 4 years, it doesn't make sense with that injury history to tie him down for years.Generally speaking it takes PGs 3-5 years to mature in the league unless you get a guy who is a top 3 pick who can come in and dominate with athleticism (think Wall, Kyrie, Lillard). Stephen Curry took 4 years to mature, Westbrook didn't explode til 3rd year. All of those guys are top 6 picks. There are a TON of guys who failed as PG drafted from 1-15.
If Rose makes it through the whole year, it'll be a tough decision as to what to offer and for how long. The market is thin for 2017 CP3 (opt out), Lowry (opt out), Jeff Teague, Justin Holiday, Patty Mills. After Rose, CP3 and Lowry you have very flawed guys or a draft pick route. And it'll be a crap shoot every offseason to wait on a front line PG.
Jennings is not on Bird rights so that's a tough position for the Knicks.
Knicks will have about $30M to sign Rose, Jennings, Holiday, 1st round pick.
LT ($6.6M), KOQ ($4.5), Kuz ($3M) have very moveable contracts.
Unless Knicks can get CP3 I think Rose will be back.
CrushAlot wrote:martin wrote:I don't think the Pelicans have lost since Holiday has come back. If the Knicks pass on Rose I think Holiday would be a great pick up. Nola has Frazier and Moore so they might let him go. I think he probably stays there though. They seemed to be very supportive of his family situation.Knicks67 wrote:Personally inclined to resigning Jennings and nabbing a young Pg prospect in the draft, however if Rose and Jennings come cheap enough for a couple more years there is something to be said for keeping that tandem together. No part of me wants Rose back on a max for 4 years, it doesn't make sense with that injury history to tie him down for years.Generally speaking it takes PGs 3-5 years to mature in the league unless you get a guy who is a top 3 pick who can come in and dominate with athleticism (think Wall, Kyrie, Lillard). Stephen Curry took 4 years to mature, Westbrook didn't explode til 3rd year. All of those guys are top 6 picks. There are a TON of guys who failed as PG drafted from 1-15.
If Rose makes it through the whole year, it'll be a tough decision as to what to offer and for how long. The market is thin for 2017 CP3 (opt out), Lowry (opt out), Jeff Teague, Justin Holiday, Patty Mills. After Rose, CP3 and Lowry you have very flawed guys or a draft pick route. And it'll be a crap shoot every offseason to wait on a front line PG.
Jennings is not on Bird rights so that's a tough position for the Knicks.
Knicks will have about $30M to sign Rose, Jennings, Holiday, 1st round pick.
LT ($6.6M), KOQ ($4.5), Kuz ($3M) have very moveable contracts.
Unless Knicks can get CP3 I think Rose will be back.
No way they let him go. You said it yourself, they haven't lost. He brings it together there. They will let Evans go and keep holiday at the max.
Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Knicks67 wrote:Personally inclined to resigning Jennings and nabbing a young Pg prospect in the draft, however if Rose and Jennings come cheap enough for a couple more years there is something to be said for keeping that tandem together. No part of me wants Rose back on a max for 4 years, it doesn't make sense with that injury history to tie him down for years.Generally speaking it takes PGs 3-5 years to mature in the league unless you get a guy who is a top 3 pick who can come in and dominate with athleticism (think Wall, Kyrie, Lillard). Stephen Curry took 4 years to mature, Westbrook didn't explode til 3rd year. All of those guys are top 6 picks. There are a TON of guys who failed as PG drafted from 1-15.
If Rose makes it through the whole year, it'll be a tough decision as to what to offer and for how long. The market is thin for 2017 CP3 (opt out), Lowry (opt out), Jeff Teague, Justin Holiday, Patty Mills. After Rose, CP3 and Lowry you have very flawed guys or a draft pick route. And it'll be a crap shoot every offseason to wait on a front line PG.
Jennings is not on Bird rights so that's a tough position for the Knicks.
Knicks will have about $30M to sign Rose, Jennings, Holiday, 1st round pick.
LT ($6.6M), KOQ ($4.5), Kuz ($3M) have very moveable contracts.
Unless Knicks can get CP3 I think Rose will be back.
Considering the cap situation, we will probably lose Holiday who will play himself into a nice contract, and try to replace his production on a cheap contract and in the draft. We will probably try to fit rose and jennings into the available cap space.
Really don't want to lose Holiday honestly. He plays sharp D on good players and is versatile. His shot is handy as well. If getting both means losing out on good developing pieces like that I'd just pick one or the other and lock down players we have like Kuz and Willy for the future.
Realistically that will not happen, so with regards to Jennings and Rose I want to see how the season folds out first. Who holds up the year and how. Additionally what is the asking price.A few years ago Rose was looking for the max. If he is still looking for the max, that is for him something like 30 million a year, I pass. If he is able to hold up this season at 16/5 a night and play 70+ games, I would be willing to do 20 million a year at 4 years, with a player opt out after 3. For Jennings, same deal length at 10 million per year. Have to see fist what the team results are, and where these guys are in April. Can they keep this up (and improve) all year? Lets see.