Knicks · Melo needs to realize he has a good team this year (page 3)

knicks1248 wrote:This team will have taken a step fwd when they learn to win games when melo has little to no impact

He will always have impact, he is either going to play well and they win or he will shoot until they cant win.1 up, 1 down its been that way his whole career. This team is going nowhere until they replace him with another talented wing

HofstraBBall wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Vmart wrote:Rose wasn't great either 6-20. Combined with Melo these two were a staggering 13-45.

Rose had 8 assists and 8 boards with just 1 TO his shooting I can live with. Melo is a waste of space if he isnt shooting well

Ummm, Melo the waste of space had 8 boards too. Funny how that stat shines for someone else, but not for Melo.
Yeah, yeah, I know, at 6'8" Melo should have 15 boards every night.

Oh wait, most of those rebounds were off his own misses, right? Because we all know following your own shot is for losers.

If Rose or no one else is getting it done, what would you rather have Melo do? Disappear like H20 used to?

Funny how we didn't see a shit load of Melo played great threads after Fridays game.

Because of consistent inconsistency, Melo gives you 13-20 for 32 points or 5-19 for 18

Jmpasq wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Vmart wrote:Rose wasn't great either 6-20. Combined with Melo these two were a staggering 13-45.

Rose had 8 assists and 8 boards with just 1 TO his shooting I can live with. Melo is a waste of space if he isnt shooting well

Ummm, Melo the waste of space had 8 boards too. Funny how that stat shines for someone else, but not for Melo.
Yeah, yeah, I know, at 6'8" Melo should have 15 boards every night.

Oh wait, most of those rebounds were off his own misses, right? Because we all know following your own shot is for losers.

If Rose or no one else is getting it done, what would you rather have Melo do? Disappear like H20 used to?

Funny how we didn't see a shit load of Melo played great threads after Fridays game.

Because of consistent inconsistency, Melo gives you 13-20 for 32 points or 5-19 for 18

Actually, what that means is he's a consistent 46% shooter.

What's more to the point of consistent inconsistency is how there were 0 Melo played great threads after the 13-20's as opposed to 4 Melo suhucks donkey kong threads after the 5-19's.

His shooting averages out to 46% - that doesn't make him a consistent 46% shooter. Clearly some posters here have no conception of statistics or how to use it. His inconsistency is costing us winnable games. Then he has one good shooting game and it brings his average back up. For a "franchise" player wannabe, he needs to show actual consistency in that range not average out.

You can have 3 bad games that you lose shooting in the high 20s to low 30s and two good games shooting at 65% and still average out to 45%, doesn't help the team in any way to lose 3 out of 5 close and very winnable games especially since we have to rely on him to account for at least 30% of the scoring opportunities.

meloshouldgo wrote:A great deal was made about his assist numbers last year. It was a sure sign that he had turned into a mature team player and blah blah blah. I would say reading between the lines he is still a dim witted low awareness one dimensional ball hog. Knicks will be bad for another 2 seasons after this. It is what it is.

Melo's assists are down to 2.6 this year, lowest mark of his career. 4.1 last year.

I find it disheartening. It's pretty clear Melo is no longer an elite athlete and he hasn't realized it yet. Still doesn't know when to pass, when to shoot, when he is doing too much iso/bully ball. And yet he is a pretty darn good passer but he gets locked in to his own play too often.

Melo said in his post game interview last night that "I can't stop taking those shots." He shot 4 for 19 in the game.

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:A great deal was made about his assist numbers last year. It was a sure sign that he had turned into a mature team player and blah blah blah. I would say reading between the lines he is still a dim witted low awareness one dimensional ball hog. Knicks will be bad for another 2 seasons after this. It is what it is.

Melo's assists are down to 2.6 this year, lowest mark of his career. 4.1 last year.

I find it disheartening. It's pretty clear Melo is no longer an elite athlete and he hasn't realized it yet. Still doesn't know when to pass, when to shoot, when he is doing too much iso/bully ball. And yet he is a pretty darn good passer but he gets locked in to his own play too often.

I think the assists percentage last year was a function of him having to play point forward quite a bit. Didn't make us better but gave him a good stat line - its silly to think his game actually changed. It was fool's hope, and I was guilty of it too.

Right now this dude is baggage and will be for the foreseeable future. I think this season has shown that he can't/ won't change. He is just not smart enough to see the obvious.

I don't know why you guys expect so much from Melo he was never an efficient player to begin with. He is a volume shooter always has been and always will be. I been saying he isn't efficient enough and then people put up misleading stats like TS%. In the course of the game are opponents looking and thinking about if it was a three he made or missed? The only thing that registers to players is make and a miss. If Melo is missing shots they are feeling good when he is making majority of his shot they are not feeling good.

My hope for Melo is that he waive the no trade clause in his contract and we bring in younger players that fit today's brand of NBA. Wishful thinking on my part. Another three years and the Knicks can move on.

I expect Melo to stop shooting when his shot isn't falling. It's just common sense and good basketball.

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:A great deal was made about his assist numbers last year. It was a sure sign that he had turned into a mature team player and blah blah blah. I would say reading between the lines he is still a dim witted low awareness one dimensional ball hog. Knicks will be bad for another 2 seasons after this. It is what it is.

Melo's assists are down to 2.6 this year, lowest mark of his career. 4.1 last year.

I find it disheartening. It's pretty clear Melo is no longer an elite athlete and he hasn't realized it yet. Still doesn't know when to pass, when to shoot, when he is doing too much iso/bully ball. And yet he is a pretty darn good passer but he gets locked in to his own play too often.

super disheartening, rather than keep moving the ball looking for an opening Melo holds it, pounds it and take a forced jumper defended by one of the better NBA defender or he takes it into a forest of bigs where he cant finish. There is a place for iso ball, and those can be important shots and possessions over the course of a game. Last night was a perfect example of the downside of it, and what happens when it doesnt work and we kept going back to it. Hey.. Melo is hearing it. People at the garden are seeing the same thing.

reub wrote:I expect Melo to stop shooting when his shot isn't falling. It's just common sense and good basketball.

I'd expect people to look at the shot chart for the 4th quarter and see that Melo did exactly that. Two whole shots in the 4th quarter. It's just intelligent posting and leads to better BBIQ.

Oh wait, that's two shots too many

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:A great deal was made about his assist numbers last year. It was a sure sign that he had turned into a mature team player and blah blah blah. I would say reading between the lines he is still a dim witted low awareness one dimensional ball hog. Knicks will be bad for another 2 seasons after this. It is what it is.

Melo's assists are down to 2.6 this year, lowest mark of his career. 4.1 last year.

I find it disheartening. It's pretty clear Melo is no longer an elite athlete and he hasn't realized it yet. Still doesn't know when to pass, when to shoot, when he is doing too much iso/bully ball. And yet he is a pretty darn good passer but he gets locked in to his own play too often.

Disheartening is the right word. That has been my feeling watching this unfold. I really thought Melo had taken a step as a player last year. He was playing fantastic. Looking to get everyone going. This year he should have done the same. He's best as a scoring threat who passses vs complete vortext and in bully mode. He's a one in every third or fourth game, dominant scoring type of player. If he could have those games 75% of the time, I could support it. For every great game like Friday he has playing that way, he has a few more than that where he can not play as well and shoots his team out of it. He has to pass the ball and he has to set up teammates because right now he has good teammates. 2 of his teammates are even more effective than him in some situations. Rose is getting to the basket at will and finishing better now than at season's start. KP has been playing like an all-star and when given even a little bit of space is an outstanding scorer. Lee can shoot open looks as can Holiday (his backup).

For Melo to operate this way is inexcusable. This isn't a team with role players and 1 star. It's a team with 3 legitimate star level shot creators and makers and some good outside shooters at the wing (Lee/Holiday). It may not seem that important, but in my opinion the difference in Melo playing more like a point forward and Melo playing purely as a scorer is this team being a 37 win lottery team or a 45 win 6th seed. How Melo plays will distinguish whether this team can make the playoffs or not. As he is playing right now and as much of a liabilty Noah is, I think we'll just miss out (unless everyone current below us at 9, 10, 11 all continue to play without improvement).

jrodmc wrote:

reub wrote:I expect Melo to stop shooting when his shot isn't falling. It's just common sense and good basketball.

I'd expect people to look at the shot chart for the 4th quarter and see that Melo did exactly that. Two whole shots in the 4th quarter. It's just intelligent posting and leads to better BBIQ.

He had a stretch where he missed 10 of 11 shots. If those misses were on jumpers in the flow off the offense fine.. sometimes they dont go down. Melo missed time and time down the floor. Time and time he asked for the ball 18-20 feet away so he could pound it and force whatever shot he could get off. Did you watch the game? The offense was brutal. Others stunk also, Melo was a biggest culprit. He also didnt play any defense at all. Also while we know Melo can score at the 3 he cant defend there. At all. Its at the point where every team knows. Those 3s Robertson hit last night were daggers. Melo was nowhere near the play.

Jmpasq wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Vmart wrote:Rose wasn't great either 6-20. Combined with Melo these two were a staggering 13-45.

Rose had 8 assists and 8 boards with just 1 TO his shooting I can live with. Melo is a waste of space if he isnt shooting well

Ummm, Melo the waste of space had 8 boards too. Funny how that stat shines for someone else, but not for Melo.
Yeah, yeah, I know, at 6'8" Melo should have 15 boards every night.

Oh wait, most of those rebounds were off his own misses, right? Because we all know following your own shot is for losers.

If Rose or no one else is getting it done, what would you rather have Melo do? Disappear like H20 used to?

Funny how we didn't see a shit load of Melo played great threads after Fridays game.

Because of consistent inconsistency, Melo gives you 13-20 for 32 points or 5-19 for 18

when your best guy goes 12-19 one night and 7-24 the next with no other intangibles its hard to win. I think he could be used really well in Boston as a 4

Here is Melo this year:

FG	FGA	FG%
8	18	0.444
5	15	0.333
8	17	0.471
8	15	0.533
9	22	0.409
12	20	0.6
9	22	0.409
5	8	0.625
10	21	0.476
8	18	0.444
9	17	0.529
7	17	0.412
12	22	0.545
7	22	0.318
14	25	0.56
7	25	0.28
4	19	0.211

Guys have good nights, they have bad ones. The problem with what I see here is his bad games are also the games he shoots the most. 7-22, 7-25, 4-19... those are the types of nights he's hurting his team and I think thats a fair knock on Melo.

This coach wont survive benching Melo or "forcing him" to change his game. I dont know what the solution is. Noah can cry unselfish all he wants but he's done nothing to elevate the team's play either. Effort is there but effective play has not been. Whats the solution? This strikes me as something Phil should discuss over a steak? Hey Carmelo... how long before we realize this isnt working? I mean Melo has a no trade clause and 2 years left after this one.

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

reub wrote:I expect Melo to stop shooting when his shot isn't falling. It's just common sense and good basketball.

I'd expect people to look at the shot chart for the 4th quarter and see that Melo did exactly that. Two whole shots in the 4th quarter. It's just intelligent posting and leads to better BBIQ.

He had a stretch where he missed 10 of 11 shots. If those misses were on jumpers in the flow off the offense fine.. sometimes they dont go down. Melo missed time and time down the floor. Time and time he asked for the ball 18-20 feet away so he could pound it and force whatever shot he could get off. Did you watch the game? The offense was brutal. Others stunk also, Melo was a biggest culprit. He also didnt play any defense at all. Also while we know Melo can score at the 3 he cant defend there. At all. Its at the point where every team knows. Those 3s Robertson hit last night were daggers. Melo was nowhere near the play.

So he's supposed to stop shooting in the second quarter? After the first 5 misses? What exactly? Was he hoisting up threes three seconds into the clock? No, I didn't see the game, but you just said the whole offense was brutal, others being stinky as well.
Try and stay on topic. We're talking about him not shooting when he's off, not his inability to be Kwami Leonard. He played almost the entire fourth quarter and put up two shots. WTF else was he supposed to do? Ask to be benched? Contact BRIGGS and get Phil to have an in-game trade to Boston done?

fishmike wrote:Here is Melo this year:

FG	FGA	FG%
8	18	0.444
5	15	0.333
8	17	0.471
8	15	0.533
9	22	0.409
12	20	0.6
9	22	0.409
5	8	0.625
10	21	0.476
8	18	0.444
9	17	0.529
7	17	0.412
12	22	0.545
7	22	0.318
14	25	0.56
7	25	0.28
4	19	0.211

Guys have good nights, they have bad ones. The problem with what I see here is his bad games are also the games he shoots the most. 7-22, 7-25, 4-19... those are the types of nights he's hurting his team and I think thats a fair knock on Melo.

This coach wont survive benching Melo or "forcing him" to change his game. I dont know what the solution is. Noah can cry unselfish all he wants but he's done nothing to elevate the team's play either. Effort is there but effective play has not been. Whats the solution? This strikes me as something Phil should discuss over a steak? Hey Carmelo... how long before we realize this isnt working? I mean Melo has a no trade clause and 2 years left after this one.

Yes, we know Melo is into hero ball. The mf wants to win, I think, or at least that's what I think he wants to do, and he actually sees himself as integral to that happening. So he most likely sees himself shooting the team back into games, because what do you know, sometimes that actually happens!
Another thing you don't mention while channeling dk7th's and BRIGGS wet dreams about the trade that's not happening, is he doesn't get any calls. Look at the shots he took. How many times around the basket does he get hacked? Or did that not happen this game? Fuhuck, they whine and cry more on anti-homer ESPN radio about it then almost anything else.

So let's trade him, because we're around a .500 team.

If Melo wanted to win he'd stop shooting when his shots aren't falling. And not just after the first 20 or 25 of them miss. He's got to realize that he's hurting the team when he does this.

BRIGGS wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Vmart wrote:Rose wasn't great either 6-20. Combined with Melo these two were a staggering 13-45.

Rose had 8 assists and 8 boards with just 1 TO his shooting I can live with. Melo is a waste of space if he isnt shooting well

Ummm, Melo the waste of space had 8 boards too. Funny how that stat shines for someone else, but not for Melo.
Yeah, yeah, I know, at 6'8" Melo should have 15 boards every night.

Oh wait, most of those rebounds were off his own misses, right? Because we all know following your own shot is for losers.

If Rose or no one else is getting it done, what would you rather have Melo do? Disappear like H20 used to?

Funny how we didn't see a shit load of Melo played great threads after Fridays game.

Because of consistent inconsistency, Melo gives you 13-20 for 32 points or 5-19 for 18

when your best guy goes 12-19 one night and 7-24 the next with no other intangibles its hard to win. I think he could be used really well in Boston as a 4

And why is that? Because the baskets are larger in Boston? Because Melo's suddenly going to get Harden calls? What changes by moving north, exactly?

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

reub wrote:I expect Melo to stop shooting when his shot isn't falling. It's just common sense and good basketball.

I'd expect people to look at the shot chart for the 4th quarter and see that Melo did exactly that. Two whole shots in the 4th quarter. It's just intelligent posting and leads to better BBIQ.

He had a stretch where he missed 10 of 11 shots. If those misses were on jumpers in the flow off the offense fine.. sometimes they dont go down. Melo missed time and time down the floor. Time and time he asked for the ball 18-20 feet away so he could pound it and force whatever shot he could get off. Did you watch the game? The offense was brutal. Others stunk also, Melo was a biggest culprit. He also didnt play any defense at all. Also while we know Melo can score at the 3 he cant defend there. At all. Its at the point where every team knows. Those 3s Robertson hit last night were daggers. Melo was nowhere near the play.

So he's supposed to stop shooting in the second quarter? After the first 5 misses? What exactly? Was he hoisting up threes three seconds into the clock? No, I didn't see the game, but you just said the whole offense was brutal, others being stinky as well.
Try and stay on topic. We're talking about him not shooting when he's off, not his inability to be Kwami Leonard. He played almost the entire fourth quarter and put up two shots. WTF else was he supposed to do? Ask to be benched? Contact BRIGGS and get Phil to have an in-game trade to Boston done?

Go back and read the bold. The answer is yes... at some point he should stop taking THOSE shots. I always give guys a pass for bad shooting nights. It happens. Guys miss shots. The question is as a player what do you do when you start missing? Melo takes more and more of the same shots he's missing.

Stay on topic. How many iso plays vs. Robertson need to end in misses before you are comfortably with Melo changing his approach? You keep harping on the 4th qtr... the question is does Melo's style of play hurt the team? I mean how many times down the floor of watching 4 guys stand around while Melo forces a bad shot against a more athletic defender to realize this is bad basketball? Again... 11 misses in 12 shots, and if you watched it wasnt that he was missing the jumper when the ball swung to him (see John Starks game 7). These were give me the ball because there is no way I am missing this time. Or this. Or this. Or now. Or this time. Got one! Not missing this... or this, or this, or that, or this, or this, or this... thats what missing 10 of 11 sounds like.

My problem isnt the misses, its the type of shot. Iso, 1-1, stand back guys I got this type of play, and he didnt got it. At all.