Knicks · Jennings over Rose as starter (page 1)
several videos here.
The main thing missing with Rose right now is his pick and roll partner. I think he's always played with rollers. He's used to Noah, Gibson and all those Bulls bigs setting him hard picks and rolling quickly. KP is more of a soft screen setter who plays like Dirk in those screen/roll situations and Rose is lost what to do. Jennings on the other hand doesn't wait or pause, he's insant with his decision making and goes straight for a play. He'll pass it to KP or an open shooter or take a shot himself.
To me I feel Rose has never played for a good coach on offense in the pros like Hornachek. He's become so accustomed to Thibs style, with Thibs just letting him run play after play, hold the ball on for long stretches, that Rose is still learning how to play in a different style. He keeps on looking for KP to roll, and KP should roll, but KP is also fantastic as staying out after the screen to keep the spacing and spreading the floor. Rose then has to make the pass right away to KP. He pauses. For whatever reason Rose is just not used to playing a high paced stretch offense, where guys are not rolling hard to the basket. He is expecting guys in the paint. The paint is there for him to make the drive. If he doesn't have a good look, he needs to kick it out. The ball needs to leave his hands sooner or the shot go up sooner. That's all it's about for Rose.
Defenitely Jennings is more of a natural fit in Hornachek's offense and playing with KP. That was evident in preseason. Rose has more scoring talent. You can't just dump and give up on Rose right now. What you do is go over the tape with him and show him how he's not making quick enough decisions. He's stalling. On KP's end, KP needs to roll harder at times. Rose and KP need to talk a ton about where they want to be once KP sets a screen.
If you look at Melo, I'm sure he saw the game against OKC on tape. Once he saw what he was doing, the next game he came out and played a completely different game. Less isolation, much quicker release of the ball. Hornachek wants guys to get quick good looks or move the ball. The thing with Melo and Rose is they are the two best shot creators on the team from the perimeter so they can hold on to the ball too long. That is what they have to work on this season. I give this team until the all-star break. If they're still hovering at .500 then that's just what they'll be and Melo/Rose are what they are. For now I want to see if we can get longer stretches of that great play I see at times.
holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??
is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
nyknickzingis wrote:I believe before giving up on Rose, you have to give him more time to play a more fitting role. I've seen enough of him to know he is not a true point guard. He's more of a shooting guard with point guard skills or a combo guard. He's a shoot first ball dominant type. He has great ability to get to the basket and finish. So what I'd do is play both of them together more often,The main thing missing with Rose right now is his pick and roll partner. I think he's always played with rollers. He's used to Noah, Gibson and all those Bulls bigs setting him hard picks and rolling quickly. KP is more of a soft screen setter who plays like Dirk in those screen/roll situations and Rose is lost what to do. Jennings on the other hand doesn't wait or pause, he's insant with his decision making and goes straight for a play. He'll pass it to KP or an open shooter or take a shot himself.
To me I feel Rose has never played for a good coach on offense in the pros like Hornachek. He's become so accustomed to Thibs style, with Thibs just letting him run play after play, hold the ball on for long stretches, that Rose is still learning how to play in a different style. He keeps on looking for KP to roll, and KP should roll, but KP is also fantastic as staying out after the screen to keep the spacing and spreading the floor. Rose then has to make the pass right away to KP. He pauses. For whatever reason Rose is just not used to playing a high paced stretch offense, where guys are not rolling hard to the basket. He is expecting guys in the paint. The paint is there for him to make the drive. If he doesn't have a good look, he needs to kick it out. The ball needs to leave his hands sooner or the shot go up sooner. That's all it's about for Rose.
Defenitely Jennings is more of a natural fit in Hornachek's offense and playing with KP. That was evident in preseason. Rose has more scoring talent. You can't just dump and give up on Rose right now. What you do is go over the tape with him and show him how he's not making quick enough decisions. He's stalling. On KP's end, KP needs to roll harder at times. Rose and KP need to talk a ton about where they want to be once KP sets a screen.
If you look at Melo, I'm sure he saw the game against OKC on tape. Once he saw what he was doing, the next game he came out and played a completely different game. Less isolation, much quicker release of the ball. Hornachek wants guys to get quick good looks or move the ball. The thing with Melo and Rose is they are the two best shot creators on the team from the perimeter so they can hold on to the ball too long. That is what they have to work on this season. I give this team until the all-star break. If they're still hovering at .500 then that's just what they'll be and Melo/Rose are what they are. For now I want to see if we can get longer stretches of that great play I see at times.
yes. good stuff
martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
Right, that is not what the starting team needs..Melo and KP are dynamic scorers and needs space not someone to create shots for them....Melo led the league in scoring with no one creating shots for him...
Every team does not need a dynamic PG..Cleveland doesn't need a dynamic PG..GS doesn't need a dynamic PG...Old Heat teams didn't need a dynamic PG..Knicks starting team doesn't need a dynamic PG...
holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
Right, that is not what the starting team needs..Melo and KP are dynamic scorers and needs space not someone to create shots for them....Melo led the league in scoring with no one creating shots for him...
Every team does not need a dynamic PG..Cleveland doesn't need a dynamic PG..GS doesn't need a dynamic PG...Old Heat teams didn't need a dynamic PG..Knicks starting team doesn't need a dynamic PG...
Well then you are advocating iso ball, I'm pushing more ball movement and passing.
Also, I never said that the Knicks DON'T need a dynamic PG ala Cleveland or GS or old Heat teams. We are talking about what style of PG fits best with different players.
You seem to be taking the context and moving it to something it is not.
I do think the Knicks will need exactly what Rose brings when/if they get to the playoffs: a player who can flat out break down the defense and get a bucket. Melo can sorta, kinda do that but his best days are behind him; KP is ready for that yet.
martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
you forgot to add that Rose is trying to prove that he is still a penetrator and a scorer so he will get paid...
SupremeCommander wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
you forgot to add that Rose is trying to prove that he is still a penetrator and a scorer so he will get paid...
Not for nothing but every player is trying to get paid, you can make that argument at any time but for the guys that are obviously headed to retirement.
And Rose himself has stated the obvious too, everyone knows it. I don't think he has done anything out of norm, do you?
The guy is still trying to get his form back: driving to the basket, making the mid-range, playing defense, surviving games, figuring out what and where to be within the team.
holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
But the 1st unit and 2nd unit are two totally different types of players on the court so it Jennings won't look the same with both units. The 1st unit is older slower guys in Melo, Rose and Noah and KP is slower as well and the 2nd unit is all young kids that have the energy to run all over the court and make things faster for Jennings to work with. Melo definitely isn't gonna be out there running around at his age even though he needs to be and we all know how the ball stops when Melo gets it except for a few rare occasions that he comes into the game with the pass first mentality.
martin wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
you forgot to add that Rose is trying to prove that he is still a penetrator and a scorer so he will get paid...
Not for nothing but every player is trying to get paid, you can make that argument at any time but for the guys that are obviously headed to retirement.
And Rose himself has stated the obvious too, everyone knows it. I don't think he has done anything out of norm, do you?
The guy is still trying to get his form back: driving to the basket, making the mid-range, playing defense, surviving games, figuring out what and where to be within the team.
not out of the norm but the numbers demonstrate a negative correlation between Rose getting more shots and scoring more to the Knicks winning. So in short: I think he had put himself before the team, but not necessarily in a Marbury way (yet)
SupremeCommander wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
you forgot to add that Rose is trying to prove that he is still a penetrator and a scorer so he will get paid...
Rose has already proven that when healthy he's still a great PG in this league and if he ends the year healthy with his stats being at what they are right now he's gonna get paid without a doubt.
newyorker4ever wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
you forgot to add that Rose is trying to prove that he is still a penetrator and a scorer so he will get paid...
Rose has already proven that when healthy he's still a great PG in this league and if he ends the year healthy with his stats being at what they are right now he's gonna get paid without a doubt.
I'm not arguing that... what I've been suggesting is the Jennings is a better fit for how this team is constructed.
In other words: does what Rose brings to the table benefit the Knicks? Is this Melo + Amar'e pt II? You can't see the redundancy of Melo and Rose? If he's going to get paid truthfully I'd rather reallocate that $25 million or whatever he's going to get to other positions.
Rose’s presence on the floor elevates the team (the Knicks are 6.4 points per 100 possessions better when he plays), despite what you may be hearing on Twitter or in local bars. Nuance, after all, has never been the sports fan’s strength.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26790...
I was actually somewhat surprised by this stat.
SupremeCommander wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
you forgot to add that Rose is trying to prove that he is still a penetrator and a scorer so he will get paid...
Rose has already proven that when healthy he's still a great PG in this league and if he ends the year healthy with his stats being at what they are right now he's gonna get paid without a doubt.
I'm not arguing that... what I've been suggesting is the Jennings is a better fit for how this team is constructed.
In other words: does what Rose brings to the table benefit the Knicks? Is this Melo + Amar'e pt II? You can't see the redundancy of Melo and Rose? If he's going to get paid truthfully I'd rather reallocate that $25 million or whatever he's going to get to other positions.
Jennings plus a quality backup PG should make combined less money than Rose will by himself. That should definitely be taken into account. If we give Rose a long-term contract at 25m+ per year, we have to be sure he makes a huge difference on this team. Right now, i can't see us being a worst team with Jennings playing the bulk of the minutes, but things can always change, it's too early to determine that.
martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?
Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.
But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...
I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.
Right, that is not what the starting team needs..Melo and KP are dynamic scorers and needs space not someone to create shots for them....Melo led the league in scoring with no one creating shots for him...
Every team does not need a dynamic PG..Cleveland doesn't need a dynamic PG..GS doesn't need a dynamic PG...Old Heat teams didn't need a dynamic PG..Knicks starting team doesn't need a dynamic PG...Well then you are advocating iso ball, I'm pushing more ball movement and passing.
Also, I never said that the Knicks DON'T need a dynamic PG ala Cleveland or GS or old Heat teams. We are talking about what style of PG fits best with different players.
You seem to be taking the context and moving it to something it is not.
I do think the Knicks will need exactly what Rose brings when/if they get to the playoffs: a player who can flat out break down the defense and get a bucket. Melo can sorta, kinda do that but his best days are behind him; KP is ready for that yet.
No...Not at all..One thing doesn't mean an endorsement for ISO ball...You have witnessed with your own eyes the first unit offense flows better with Rose than Jennings..You have seen it..On paper, you think it will be better but in reality it hasn't happened..So dynamic and non dynamic doesn't matter...