Cartman718 wrote:nixluva wrote:I just watched the Game again and 28 of the Knicks 44 made baskets came out of 4 Out Style sets. Most were started with a High PnR and I saw no Pure Triangle sets. This was a major shift away from the Triangle and can't be accidental. It's literally what i've been screaming for Jeff to do and I hope he sticks with this. It's clearly more PnR from Melo than we've seen in recent times.
When the rest of the board kept telling you we need more PNR last season, you couldn't react to it positively. I don't care about how many screenshots you post. Anyone who has watched even the first 10-15 games of the season will concede that the triangle is not a fit for these players. As far as Jeff running more PNR than anything else...it may be a recent occurrence because Phil may have finally conceded to Jeff that we can't play triangle with these guys that he himself brought in.
You misunderstood what I was saying! I actually pointed out that you can run PnR out of the Triangle in addition to 4 Out!!! I even posted images to PROVE how easy it is to do. Only change is to move one forward out of the Pinch Post and then you have a 4 Out look.
In fact Tex Winter had a 4 Out look in his playbook in his own hand writing. He made it easy to flow in and out of that look at any time. THAT is what I was saying! I'm not against PnR ball which you would know from my support of MDA's offense!
Just cuz guys didn't follow what I've been saying doesn't mean I've changed my views. Also I felt with Rose, Noah, Jennings added it made more sense to run MORE PnR than pure Triangle with this team and Jeff talked about doing that from the start.
Hornacek switching up going real well in its 2nd game.
As suggested numerous times on Thursday night it was far more the Bulls being even worse than us than anything to look forward to with this Knicks team.
Lose tomorrow against Atlanta with a certain defeat in Boston to come on Wednesday we should be in full blow up mode. This season is a shambles and we should do everything we can to get an early pick and trade for others.
magicTs wrote:Hornacek switching up going real well in its 2nd game.As suggested numerous times on Thursday night it was far more the Bulls being even worse than us than anything to look forward to with this Knicks team.
Lose tomorrow against Atlanta with a certain defeat in Boston to come on Wednesday we should be in full blow up mode. This season is a shambles and we should do everything we can to get an early pick and trade for others.
Switching off will be the best strategy... and it does not need any effort to implement.
It will come naturally.
It came to me today at the beginning of the 3rd.
It can be a trouble to switch it on tomorrow...
A win tends to distort one perception of the team. Don't fall for it one game is one game. The thing with a Knicks win is I think the opponent had an off night.
I really am disappointed in some of the responses on this thread. Was the point of this thread made invalid after one loss? Somehow it always seems like a good idea by some to try and say I told you so even when it's not relevant.
Was my point that the Knicks had SOLVED ALL THEIR PROBLEMS??? It didn't suddenly make all the Knicks issues disappear.
You guys that jumped on here after the loss TOTALLY miss the point of this thread. The point was that Jeff has moved on from the Triangle heavy offense and is playing a spread PnR offense! I think LONG TERM that this is the right move!!! Will they win EVERY GAME??? Hell No. Let's not be unreasonable. None of you actually refuted my point but rather just took an opportunity to gloat after a loss. It wasn't about the WIN over the Bulls. It was about the change in style of play!!!
OF COURSE they still need to improve defensively, to get more consistent with what they do on both ends and they need to get healthy. It's not like the point of this thread was that this team was going to suddenly win every game! This thread wasn't about addressing the defense or lineups or injuries or anything else.
Nix, I don't think any of that matters now even if it has merit..This team now looks like all the other Knick teams that have unraveled..
nixluva wrote:I really am disappointed in some of the responses on this thread. Was the point of this thread made invalid after one loss? Somehow it always seems like a good idea by some to try and say I told you so even when it's not relevant. Was my point that the Knicks had SOLVED ALL THEIR PROBLEMS??? It didn't suddenly make all the Knicks issues disappear. You guys that jumped on here after the loss TOTALLY miss the point of this thread. The point was that Jeff has moved on from the Triangle heavy offense and is playing a spread PnR offense! I think LONG TERM that this is the right move!!! Will they win EVERY GAME??? Hell No. Let's not be unreasonable. None of you actually refuted my point but rather just took an opportunity to gloat after a loss. It wasn't about the WIN over the Bulls. It was about the change in style of play!!!
OF COURSE they still need to improve defensively, to get more consistent with what they do on both ends and they need to get healthy. It's not like the point of this thread was that this team was going to suddenly win every game! This thread wasn't about addressing the defense or lineups or injuries or anything else.
Well you kinda did a lot of i told you so in this thread after the Bulls win soooo....................
I don't think Hornacek ever had us playing a triangle heavy offense sooooo....................
newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:I really am disappointed in some of the responses on this thread. Was the point of this thread made invalid after one loss? Somehow it always seems like a good idea by some to try and say I told you so even when it's not relevant. Was my point that the Knicks had SOLVED ALL THEIR PROBLEMS??? It didn't suddenly make all the Knicks issues disappear. You guys that jumped on here after the loss TOTALLY miss the point of this thread. The point was that Jeff has moved on from the Triangle heavy offense and is playing a spread PnR offense! I think LONG TERM that this is the right move!!! Will they win EVERY GAME??? Hell No. Let's not be unreasonable. None of you actually refuted my point but rather just took an opportunity to gloat after a loss. It wasn't about the WIN over the Bulls. It was about the change in style of play!!!
OF COURSE they still need to improve defensively, to get more consistent with what they do on both ends and they need to get healthy. It's not like the point of this thread was that this team was going to suddenly win every game! This thread wasn't about addressing the defense or lineups or injuries or anything else.
Well you kinda did a lot of i told you so in this thread after the Bulls win soooo....................
I don't think Hornacek ever had us playing a triangle heavy offense sooooo....................
This is the kind of PETTY SHYTE that makes people not want to post on this forum. I wasn't doing an I TOLD YOU SO! The perception of some posters has always been WAY OFF. I was pointing out that Jeff had them play an entire game and they barely did any Triangle. That to me was a good move for the LONG TERM and not just the last 2 games!
In terms of the amount of Triangle the Knicks were playing, I can tell you that they were in FACT running more Triangle previous to the last 2 games and I even posted example from the Sixers game. These examples show the Triangle Spacing and not the 4 Out spacing they've since been featuring more often:
I actually rewatched the Bulls game and I counted every score that came out of the spread look and outside of Fast Breaks the majority of the Knicks scores came off of a Spread PnR look. I counted 28 out of the 44 made Shots were Spread PnR sets.
Now if this team is ever going to get healthy and figure out how to play well on both ends for a complete game I think the offensive part should remain this current posture Jeff has the team on. You still have to make shots and play good defense!!! However, my point about the Spread PnR offense still stands.
Spread PnR or Triangle, problem is defense and lack of stars in their primes. Melo and Rose are good but no longer great enough to carry teams to wins. The vets don't have it to play defense and offense. KP needs a post game before he is able to carry a team on offense and his body is still developing/adapting to NBA season grind.
And as much as I like Horny, I think he has lost this team. Now I'd sooner trade the vets on this team that Horny has lost and build around some new athletic young guys than fire Horny, but if we are keeping Rose n Melo and the vets, we gotta make a coaching change. Horny has lost this team, especially Rose. Rose just crapped on him in the media basically telling Horny to coach more like Thibs. It's a mess.
Hope Phil is planning on making some major changes. Either with coaching or trades. This mess can not continue. Only time this team is fun to watch is when KP plays well or when the bench guys like Willy, Kuz, Baker all play well. I know Horny has a good system because I see how the bench plays. Limited talet but play his system well. I also like how KP has looked under Horny. The vets like Rose, Melo, Noah all have stunk most of the season under Horny. Something's gotta give.
Fisher ran Triangle, some PnR and sets he brought from OKC. The team responded better and won better in comparison to their talent level than this group has under Horny. Their defense was much better. We had the same speed issues with Lopez/KP/Melo front court and all that. We often played big. Yet defense was better. Langston and Jose gave far more effort than Derrick has and Courtney Lee has been a surprisingly bad defender. Say whatever you want about the offense but it's also coaching. The coaching from Horny has not meshed well with the older players. On the other hand though, I think Horny has done well with KP and younger players like O'Quinn, Willy, Kuz and Baker. I just feel we need to either fire Horny or get rid of the 30+ year old vets. His system and syle of play just isn't suited for older and slower players like Noah, Melo, Lee etc.
nyknickzingis wrote:Spread PnR or Triangle, problem is defense and lack of stars in their primes. Melo and Rose are good but no longer great enough to carry teams to wins. The vets don't have it to play defense and offense. KP needs a post game before he is able to carry a team on offense and his body is still developing/adapting to NBA season grind.And as much as I like Horny, I think he has lost this team. Now I'd sooner trade the vets on this team that Horny has lost and build around some new athletic young guys than fire Horny, but if we are keeping Rose n Melo and the vets, we gotta make a coaching change. Horny has lost this team, especially Rose. Rose just crapped on him in the media basically telling Horny to coach more like Thibs. It's a mess.
Hope Phil is planning on making some major changes. Either with coaching or trades. This mess can not continue. Only time this team is fun to watch is when KP plays well or when the bench guys like Willy, Kuz, Baker all play well. I know Horny has a good system because I see how the bench plays. Limited talet but play his system well. I also like how KP has looked under Horny. The vets like Rose, Melo, Noah all have stunk most of the season under Horny. Something's gotta give.
I still wanna see this team playing this style of offense with a healthy KP. Right now we've been dealing with KP gimping along on a bad Achilles for a good while and then we've played games without KP. When he was at full strength he was able to help this team win games and they looked better tho far from perfect. A healthy KP was an important presence for this team.
This thread wasn't about the Defense but I don't think we'll see a major improvement on D as long as the top players include Rose and Melo in the mix. One of them you can cover for but not both. Especially without KP to help protect the rim. This team is not really built to be a good defensive team unless Rose and Melo step up their effort.
nyknickzingis wrote:Spread PnR or Triangle, problem is defense and lack of stars in their primes. Melo and Rose are good but no longer great enough to carry teams to wins. The vets don't have it to play defense and offense. KP needs a post game before he is able to carry a team on offense and his body is still developing/adapting to NBA season grind.And as much as I like Horny, I think he has lost this team. Now I'd sooner trade the vets on this team that Horny has lost and build around some new athletic young guys than fire Horny, but if we are keeping Rose n Melo and the vets, we gotta make a coaching change. Horny has lost this team, especially Rose. Rose just crapped on him in the media basically telling Horny to coach more like Thibs. It's a mess.
Hope Phil is planning on making some major changes. Either with coaching or trades. This mess can not continue. Only time this team is fun to watch is when KP plays well or when the bench guys like Willy, Kuz, Baker all play well. I know Horny has a good system because I see how the bench plays. Limited talet but play his system well. I also like how KP has looked under Horny. The vets like Rose, Melo, Noah all have stunk most of the season under Horny. Something's gotta give.
I say again - Phil fired Fisher too soon. I think Fisher would've been a better coach for this squad.
Rose threw Hornacek under the bus - because an enabling culture has been created here where Rose has been shown he won't be punished if he acts out.
Also, I think Phil completely undermined Hornacek when he let it leak that Rambis had been put in charge of the defense six games into the season. That should've been a private thing that never came out. Completely undermined him and yet another thing Rose can point to - "hey Phil said Jeff can't coach D, so why can't I?"
Where is Phil? Phil has created both the coaching problem and then the problem of not backing his coach up. It is essential for management to back up the coach in this league. Especially his (second) handpicked one. This makes two handpicked coaches Phil has essentially thrown under the bus in Hornacek and Fisher.
As much as the Melo experiment needs to end, I think the Phil one may need to as well. We need a leader for this organization who is good at his job and also present every damn day. I miss Donnie Walsh.
This game was another step in the evolution of Jeff taking full control of this team!!! We saw him move completely away from the Triangle Offense and tonight he was able to get the young Knicks to play his style of ball more FULLY minus Noah. Even better we saw MUCH improved defense from these guys!!! I don't think this was a small thing, which is why I started a thread about this major shift. Jeff is unchained right now and I like it.
He wants to play a certain way and you can see that the players perform better doing things his way. Especially the younger guys, but even the vets are better when they play more 4 OUT PnR ball and keep it moving.
The bench really got into the groove tonight with simple 4 Out PnR looks. This is what I was saying about this working even against a good defensive team. Spreading them out like this makes it so hard to defend. The KEY is passing the ball if they come help and leave perimeter guys open. That makes the defenders stay home if they get burned by 3pt shots.
This was taken from highlights that pointed out Melo basically being on the outside and not in his usual Pinch Post spot that we always saw in the Triangle. The announcer didn't understand what Melo was doing just camping out on the perimeter but really it totally messed up the defense of the Celtics. Teams are so used to the Knicks forcing it into Melo in the post and standing and watching him that it's a totally game change to play with everyone getting involved.
This 4 Out Style puts teams in a bad spot trying to stop the PnR and also cover our 3pt shooters. Rose can take advantage of the opposing Centers backing off of him with his midrange game.
