nyknickzingis wrote:TLover wrote:Austin Rivers & Jamal Crawford for Carmelo works $ wise. Clippers add a pick and we have a deal.
Why on earth would we make such a bad deal? Melo's still a damn good player. He has 2 years left on his deal after this one, and can likely give the Clips a chance to make a run at a title. I'm not dealing him there for less than Blake. I doubt Phil would either.
The Clippers aren't the desperate organization..They aren't the ones making the call asking for a deal..
http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6761065
This is the best deal I can come up with. This includes the Brooklyn pick for this draft coming to us. Who says no?
holfresh wrote:GustavBahler wrote:holfresh wrote:Like Trump, that just set up a negotiation starting point..
I agree Melo left the door a little open. If Melo goes, Im guessing he wants Phil to be seen as the one driving this move (even though he has the NTC) and probably wouldnt mind leaving himself at this point.
If its a choice between a bad deal now, and a better deal this summer, I hope Phil waits. Rose I would move now, try for another expiring deal, like Noel.
Not trying to be funny here, but Melo would probably want to go to one of the LA teams because of his wife's career, and his kids as well. Engineering something that would address his and his family's needs probably has a better chance of happening over the summer.
Why doesn't people think Nets?..He wants to stay in NY..I could see him wanting to do that and make a push for Rose..Dolan won't trade him to the Nets tho..
I was thinking that earlier. But I think the Knicks would only get Bropez. I don't think the Nets have any picks that they are allowed to trade. But it would be something to consider.
GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:holfresh wrote:Like Trump, that just set up a negotiation starting point..
I agree Melo left the door a little open. If Melo goes, Im guessing he wants Phil to be seen as the one driving this move (even though he has the NTC) and probably wouldnt mind leaving himself at this point.
If its a choice between a bad deal now, and a better deal this summer, I hope Phil waits. Rose I would move now, try for another expiring deal, like Noel.
Not trying to be funny here, but Melo would probably want to go to one of the LA teams because of his wife's career, and his kids as well. Engineering something that would address his and his family's needs probably has a better chance of happening over the summer.
good post. It would probably make more sense waiting for the summer in terms of value. As for rose they should try and get something for him even by eating some salary to get a better return
Melo is a 14 year veteran who has played about 20 seasons worth of minutes and has a bad shoulder. Waiting is too big a gamble IMO.
That kind of thinking got us Ewing's crappy deal, and years of cap hell. Might not be a good deal out there that Phil can put together in a hurry. Sure try, but if not wait until the dust settles.
Good point. If it doesn't happen at the deadline then around the draft a deal could be made.
VCoug wrote:
The article was pretty harsh. If it was Phil's words he likes Sasha, LT and Baker a lot but loathes Melo. I can see why Melo might move on. Melo is very popular with his peers. This could hurt Phil with other players. Its not like he is running a winning program or the income tax doesn't suck really bad in NYC.
Deep down I don't see anything happening..No way Dolan signs off on another 3 years of losing..Not when you run a publically traded company that just spent a billion in renovations..Too much uncertainty..
If there is a conversation to be had, Dolan will be involved..
holfresh wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:TLover wrote:Austin Rivers & Jamal Crawford for Carmelo works $ wise. Clippers add a pick and we have a deal.
Why on earth would we make such a bad deal? Melo's still a damn good player. He has 2 years left on his deal after this one, and can likely give the Clips a chance to make a run at a title. I'm not dealing him there for less than Blake. I doubt Phil would either.
The Clippers aren't the desperate organization..They aren't the ones making the call asking for a deal..
We aren't desperate. We have Melo on contract and he wants to stay. We should be looking at moving him because longterm it's the right move.
CrushAlot wrote:VCoug wrote:
The article was pretty harsh. If it was Phil's words he likes Sasha, LT and Baker a lot but loathes Melo. I can see why Melo might move on. Melo is very popular with his peers. This could hurt Phil with other players. Its not like he is running a winning program or the income tax doesn't suck really bad in NYC.
Article was harsh is why I didn't think it was Phil..Rosen was just doing a pay back for Melo going at Phil the last few times in social media..Was thinking it's too harsh for a Phil hit job..
CrushAlot wrote:VCoug wrote:
The article was pretty harsh. If it was Phil's words he likes Sasha, LT and Baker a lot but loathes Melo. I can see why Melo might move on. Melo is very popular with his peers. This could hurt Phil with other players. Its not like he is running a winning program or the income tax doesn't suck really bad in NYC.
Phil has won 11 rings as a coach and he knows what it takes. Players that give effort on both ends. Melo is a good player, especially good in isolations and can score with some of the best in the league. However to play winning basketball you need to be more like Kobe or Jordan. Those guys not only were the team's best scorer in isolations, they were extremely intense competitors and took pride in defense. Melo takes no pride in his defense. Never has. It sets the wrong example.
Baker, Thomas and Sasha all play hard defense. It sets the right culture. KP for all his weak fouls plays hard. Noah plays hard. Melo, Lee and Rose play as if they're playing 3 on 3 basketball in a rec league. They do not give even close to 100% on defense on a consistent basis. It could just be they don't have enough in the tank to play at a high pace running offense like Horny's and also run back and play hard on D. That's possible. If we ever want to play winning ball we need to get more players that play hard on defense.
holfresh wrote:CrushAlot wrote:VCoug wrote:
The article was pretty harsh. If it was Phil's words he likes Sasha, LT and Baker a lot but loathes Melo. I can see why Melo might move on. Melo is very popular with his peers. This could hurt Phil with other players. Its not like he is running a winning program or the income tax doesn't suck really bad in NYC.
Article was harsh is why I didn't think it was Phil..Rosen was just doing a pay back for Melo going at Phil the last few times in social media..Was thinking it's too harsh for a Phil hit job..
Also, he usually saves them for the off season. It might be time for Phil to have a conversation with Melo to let him know he appreciates him playing hard through his attempts to learn how to be a front office exec.
nyknickzingis wrote:CrushAlot wrote:VCoug wrote:
The article was pretty harsh. If it was Phil's words he likes Sasha, LT and Baker a lot but loathes Melo. I can see why Melo might move on. Melo is very popular with his peers. This could hurt Phil with other players. Its not like he is running a winning program or the income tax doesn't suck really bad in NYC.
Phil has won 11 rings as a coach and he knows what it takes. Players that give effort on both ends. Melo is a good player, especially good in isolations and can score with some of the best in the league. However to play winning basketball you need to be more like Kobe or Jordan. Those guys not only were the team's best scorer in isolations, they were extremely intense competitors and took pride in defense. Melo takes no pride in his defense. Never has. It sets the wrong example.Baker, Thomas and Sasha all play hard defense. It sets the right culture. KP for all his weak fouls plays hard. Noah plays hard. Melo, Lee and Rose play as if they're playing 3 on 3 basketball in a rec league. They do not give even close to 100% on defense on a consistent basis. It could just be they don't have enough in the tank to play at a high pace running offense like Horny's and also run back and play hard on D. That's possible. If we ever want to play winning ball we need to get more players that play hard on defense.
Baker, Sasha, LT... that is the 17 win team culture that they had with Lou, Gallo, LT and Shved. Phil went out and traded for Rose, signed Noah, Jennings and Lee to compete now. It seemed like a reasonable plan but he missed the mark again. Similar to when he set up the team his first year and thought they would be competitive.
CrushAlot wrote:holfresh wrote:CrushAlot wrote:VCoug wrote:
The article was pretty harsh. If it was Phil's words he likes Sasha, LT and Baker a lot but loathes Melo. I can see why Melo might move on. Melo is very popular with his peers. This could hurt Phil with other players. Its not like he is running a winning program or the income tax doesn't suck really bad in NYC.
Article was harsh is why I didn't think it was Phil..Rosen was just doing a pay back for Melo going at Phil the last few times in social media..Was thinking it's too harsh for a Phil hit job..
Also, he usually saves them for the off season. It might be time for Phil to have a conversation with Melo to let him know he appreciates him playing hard through his attempts to learn how to be a front office exec.
But I have the say the last few times Melo comes across as the level headed person while Phil and his surrogates looks a little out of control they way things are put out there..
holfresh wrote:CrushAlot wrote:holfresh wrote:CrushAlot wrote:VCoug wrote:
The article was pretty harsh. If it was Phil's words he likes Sasha, LT and Baker a lot but loathes Melo. I can see why Melo might move on. Melo is very popular with his peers. This could hurt Phil with other players. Its not like he is running a winning program or the income tax doesn't suck really bad in NYC.
Article was harsh is why I didn't think it was Phil..Rosen was just doing a pay back for Melo going at Phil the last few times in social media..Was thinking it's too harsh for a Phil hit job..
Also, he usually saves them for the off season. It might be time for Phil to have a conversation with Melo to let him know he appreciates him playing hard through his attempts to learn how to be a front office exec.
But I have the say the last few times Melo comes across as the level headed person while Phil and his surrogates looks a little out of control they way things are put out there..
I agree. But the last time Phil said something negative about Melo, it wasn't nearly as bad when as I thought when I got to see it in context.
So it seemed like a reasonable plan and yet it failed and it's all on Phil and not on the players? The players are supposed to play hard. They do not. Horny has made this clear. Rose and Melo are supposed to play team ball and most of the time they go 1 on 1. Again, I fail to see how the players like Melo and Rose should get no accountabilty. Blame here is shared on all fronts. Phil for not seeing that he put pieces together that would not fit in well with Horny's style. Too many older vets. Can't run and defend. Players like Melo and Rose deserve lots of blame. Lee as well. These guys were 3 of the main vets and leaders on the team and just don't bring it intensity wise. Defensively it's a joke. Coaches deserve blame for not adjusting the system to suit an older veteran team in regards to the starters.
We did right by Melo. We brought him Chicago, what he would have gone to go play with in 2014. Rose, Noah, Lee, Jennings, then having KP. That's a pretty good group there. It didn't work out. Time to do the smart thing and sell off assets if they bring back decent value for the longrun.
I am pretty sure Melo has a trade kicker. Does that impact the Knicks or the team he would be moved to?
nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team. I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.
If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.
Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.
Did you miss the Rosen article? 
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:IMO, Phil has never really believed in Melo being kp art if a winning team. I believe that he had to re-sign him because of Dolan. Had he had his way he would have let Melo walk.
Melo is a great scorer and could be an even better as a set up guy if he had the brains to do it. The team goes up and down as Melo's desire to fit in or be all about his ego.
I am all for a trade. It will be a positive move for the team. I trust in Phil. He is the only one who has ever won anything in the organization.
I agree with this. When Melo was a free agent in summer of 2014, the Knicks were hosting the all-star game the following year. You know Dolan didn't want to be fielding a team and hosting the most prestigous gala in the NBA (in his warped mind) without a Knicks all-star. Heck, remember, Melo needed that knee surgery and he limped thru the game and shot something horrendous like 6 for 20 and then had surgery like a week after the game and shut it down for the season. Dolan and Melo got what they wanted - the hometown star valiantly performing in a meaningless all-star game.
I think this will get very interesting when Melo doesn't make the all-star team this season. I think he may blame Phil/Jeff for that and then trade talks will accelerate.
I like Melo and have always defended him. But stuff like missing an all-star game is the sort of thing that will hit him HARD. I bet trade talks are rampant over all-star weekend.
nyknickzingis wrote:holfresh wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:TLover wrote:Austin Rivers & Jamal Crawford for Carmelo works $ wise. Clippers add a pick and we have a deal.
Why on earth would we make such a bad deal? Melo's still a damn good player. He has 2 years left on his deal after this one, and can likely give the Clips a chance to make a run at a title. I'm not dealing him there for less than Blake. I doubt Phil would either.
The Clippers aren't the desperate organization..They aren't the ones making the call asking for a deal..
We aren't desperate. We have Melo on contract and he wants to stay. We should be looking at moving him because longterm it's the right move.
I agree. On the contrary - the Clippers are somewhat desperate to make some sort of progress before Chris Paul just walks this summer. That core in LA(clippers) is maxed out and they never even made it out of the second round with CP3 and Blake and Deandre and Doc.
I think the Clippers may be interested. Also, there is tons of friction between CP3 and Blake. Also, the Clippers are not amused that Blake is out injured again. Honestly, I'm not a huge Blake fan and I'd rather have Jamal, Austin (cut him), and a pick or preferably two picks.
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:IMO, Phil has never really believed in Melo being kp art if a winning team. I believe that he had to re-sign him because of Dolan. Had he had his way he would have let Melo walk.
Melo is a great scorer and could be an even better as a set up guy if he had the brains to do it. The team goes up and down as Melo's desire to fit in or be all about his ego.
I am all for a trade. It will be a positive move for the team. I trust in Phil. He is the only one who has ever won anything in the organization.
I don't feel the same way about Phil. He doesn't trade picks which is honorable but so is Byron Scott working his guys hard in practice. I am not positive but I believe Zach Lowe did a podcast earlier this year where he and a guest were laughing at how little time Phil puts into his position compared to the other execs around the league. I will try to find it tomorrow.
CrushAlot wrote:GoNyGoNyGo wrote:IMO, Phil has never really believed in Melo being kp art if a winning team. I believe that he had to re-sign him because of Dolan. Had he had his way he would have let Melo walk.
Melo is a great scorer and could be an even better as a set up guy if he had the brains to do it. The team goes up and down as Melo's desire to fit in or be all about his ego.
I am all for a trade. It will be a positive move for the team. I trust in Phil. He is the only one who has ever won anything in the organization.
I don't feel the same way about Phil. He doesn't trade picks which is honorable but so is Byron Scott working his guys hard in practice. I am not positive but I believe Zach Lowe did a podcast earlier this year where he and a guest were laughing at how little time Phil puts into his position compared to the other execs around the league. I will try to find it tomorrow.
Are you sure that's Phil or is it Dolan because Dolan put a stop to trading 1sts before Phil got here and it's why the knicks lost out on getting lowry.
