Knicks · Is Jae Crowder, Amir Johnson and Jerebko enough for Melo? A Case That It Is... (page 2)
Knixkik wrote:Crowder would be awesome. He's youngish and effective on both sides of the ball. A core of porzingis, Crowder, willy, and, say, De'Aaron Fox would be a great start.
Yeah that's not bad at all. Gotta start the NEW ERA right.
SocraticBallin22 wrote:I think that this was out over the weekend but originally reported as the Celtics being the third team in a Knicks/Clippers deal. Somehow the Celtics were going to give something up that would be sent to the Knicks so that they could have Crawford's contract. The initial report had a knick scout attending a practice. I beleive this one has a Knick scout attending a game. Either way, the Celtics are the key to the Knicks getting anything decent if Phil chooses to proceed. Phil is going to do harm to the franchise, a deal with the Celtics would minimize the impact some. It could be Smart, the Celtics pick and expirings.BigRedDog wrote:Where are these "new" reports?? I haven't seen anything...
https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/report-me...This report says that their Head Coach is interested in Melo while Ainge initially rejected offers for him. Melo has also stated that he would waive his No Trade for the Celtics. There are also reports of the Knicks scouting Celtics games recently. I think Ainge would make the deal if it didn't include their (BKN's) top 3 lottery pick.
SocraticBallin22 wrote:BigRedDog wrote:Where are these "new" reports?? I haven't seen anything...
https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/report-me...This report says that their Head Coach is interested in Melo while Ainge initially rejected offers for him. Melo has also stated that he would waive his No Trade for the Celtics. There are also reports of the Knicks scouting Celtics games recently. I think Ainge would make the deal if it didn't include their (BKN's) top 3 lottery pick.
Maybe I am giving him too much credit...but if Phil is trying to create leverage on the Clips and the Cavs by pushing BOS...that is a good move...drive the price up!!
SocraticBallin22 wrote:There are new reports surfacing today that Boston has renewed interest in trading for Melo before the deadline and that Knicks scouts have been at Celtic games recently. While I would love to acquire Boston's 1st round pick this year, which will be swapped for Brooklyn's pick and will most likely end up a top 3 lottery pick;--realistically, there is no way a prudent GM like Ainge would ever relinquish this pick for Melo to a GM who has made it publicly known he is desperate to unload his star, and whose said star holds a no trade clause and will only go to a hand selected amount of teams. This diminishes his trade value,although he has helped his stock the last few games while playing at the 4 putting up monstrous, old Melo-like numbers.Which brings me to my question: would you trade Melo for Crowder, Amir Johnson and Jerebko. On the surface it looks like we're not yielding much back in return, but I can make a strong case how this instantly helps our team and rebuilding.
1) Amir Johnson and Jerebko are expiring contracts. By trading Melo for these two contracts--not the players--we shed almost 20 million off the cap this summer. Add to that the 21 million that will come off the books at the end of the year for Rose's contract (no we are NOT extending him), we will have over 40 million dollars of cap flexibility going forward for our rebuilding process. By keeping Melo, we are stuck wit ha max contract for 2 more seasons after this one for a player who will not be a MAX player anymore (many would argue he is not a max player mpw with his athleticism eroding).
2) I must admit I did not know much about Jae Crowder until I did some research on him recently. All I knew was that he was a 2nd round pick, overachieving type of player whose known for his defense (something our team desperately needs). I also knew that Phil had interest in him last offseason, so he does like the player. In checking his stats this year, I was blown away. He is the starting small forward for one of the best teams in the eastern conference and here are his numbers:
In his last 10 games, he is averaging 18ppg and 6 rebounds shooting .517 from the field, while playing plus defense. Small sample size, right?
Well for the season, he is averaging 14ppg, 5 rebounds shooting .488 from the field and get this--the kicker--.427 from 3 point range! If that's not a prototypical 3 and D player, I don't know what is. He has developed his jump shot the last two years and is now a 2 way player (something we know Melo is not).
Moreover, he's only 26 years old and on a very friendly contract of about 6 million per year for the next 3 years, which coincide with his prime years of playing basketball (a huge asset).
If you plug him into the 3 to replace Melo, we instantly become a lot better defensively--our main weakness this year--while he still provides plenty of offense as a role player. Moreover, if you surround the court with the likes of Crowder, Lee (one of the best 3 point shooters in the league), Holiday, Baker and of course KP--we would become one of the deadliest 3 point shooting teams in the league!
In sum, we would shed 40 million dollars of payroll at the end of the season, add a young, talented and offensively developing role player like Crowder to our core, while still having our 1st round pick this summer, which will have a better chance of being a lottery pick--further enhancing the true rebuild and building around KP for the future.
In an ideal world, I would want a 1st round pick in return for Melo, but that may not be feasible right now, and this deal still has plenty of value for us and would serve the purpose of rebuilding.
Thoughts?!?
Being a big Melo supporter, surprise, would not want just a cap clearing move. Rather waive Noah thus clearing 38M. But getting Crowder, Smart or Brown and a future first rounder, yeah, can't say I can come up with a reason not to. But I thought the Celts came out and said they are no longer interested in Melo?
Another concern, as Knick fan, is if KP is ready to be the go to guy that can create under pressure when defenses focus on him? (Reason why you build around him) Just dont want to count on someone else getting him the ball in a good shooting spot or some coach running the right plays. Which a 7'3 guy will need, specially one without a polished post up game. And we have seen, for many years, that its hard to find the right complimentary players to help your star.
Melo is a guy that can create his own shot, even with defenses focused on him, wants the ball under pressure and is a major scoring threat. That is a tough thing to replace. But if Phil is pushing him out, package mentioned would be easier to take. Just hope everyone bunkers down for another decade of mediocre teams, as rebuilds have been proven to be quite challenging. We know that first hand.
Welpee wrote:Any deal with Boston must include Jaylen Brown. Otherwise I say pass. Also, does anyone have information on the status of Boston's picks other than that Nets pick? I've been trying to look it up and there's a lot of conflicting info out there.
Per RealGM
2017 first round draft pick from Brooklyn (swap, Boston outgoing)
Boston has the right to swap its 2017 1st round pick for Brooklyn's 2017 1st round pick; if Boston exercises this swap right, then Boston will convey its 2017 2nd round pick to Brooklyn protected for selections 31-45 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Boston's obligation to Brooklyn will be extinguished) [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]; this potential pick conveyance is the same as the one described in "2017 second round draft pick from Boston" on Brooklyn Incoming2017 second round draft pick from Cleveland
Cleveland's 2017 2nd round pick to Boston [Boston-Cleveland, 9/25/2014]2017 second round draft pick from L.A. Clippers
L.A. Clippers' 2017 2nd round pick to Boston [Boston-L.A. Clippers-Phoenix, 1/15/2015]2017 second round draft pick from Minnesota
Minnesota's 2017 2nd round pick to Boston (via Phoenix) [Minnesota-New Orleans-Phoenix, 7/27/2012; Boston-Phoenix, 1/9/2015]2018 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
Brooklyn's 2018 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]2019 first round draft pick from L.A. Clippers
If at least two years after the L.A. Clippers conveyed a 1st round pick to Toronto, then the L.A. Clippers will convey their 1st round pick to Boston (via Memphis) protected for selections 1-14 in 2019 and 1-14 in 2020; if the L.A. Clippers have not conveyed a 1st round pick to Boston by 2020, then the L.A. Clippers will instead convey their 2022 2nd round pick to Boston [L.A. Clippers-Memphis, 2/18/2016; Boston-Memphis, 6/23/2016]2019 first round draft pick from Memphis
Memphis' 1st round pick to Boston protected for selections 1-8 in 2019 (conveyable if Memphis conveys a 1st round pick to Denver in 2017) and 1-6 in 2020 (conveyable if Memphis has conveyed a 1st round pick to Denver by 2018) and unprotected in 2021 [Boston-Memphis-New Orleans, 1/12/2015]2019 second round draft pick from Detroit
Detroit's 2019 2nd round pick to Boston (via Oklahoma City) [Detroit-Oklahoma City-Utah, 2/19/2015; Boston-Oklahoma City, 7/14/2015]2020 second round draft pick from Miami
Miami's 2020 2nd round pick to Boston [Boston-Miami, 7/27/2015]
O'Quinn
for
Brown
Johnson (on last year of their contract)
Jerebko (on last year of their contract)
Young (on last year of their contract)
Boston's 2018 1st round pick (projected to be late in the round)
Asking too much in return? Would they bite without including the pick?
Honestly not interested in Crowder, Smart, or dumping Melo for just cap space.
If they don't want melo I still see them as a player, e.g., love to celts, melo to cats picks and some role players to Knicks
In terms of players I like crowder but don't want to get too excited about him. I'd like him on team but also think good talent scouts (which thank god we have) can find other 3 and d guys
I'm nota jaylen brown fan. Reminds me in a strange way of D Williams. Too small for one position not enough shot for another. Some plays are highlights and the next are horrible.
I really like smart for some reason. He has a genuine tenacity. Totally different position but reminds me of draymond in being all about winning and doing the tough things like getting up in someone's grill on D. The celtics announcers sometimes refer to tough D as being willing to get hit in the face. I think there's some truth to that. Recall last season when KP was going off on celts. They put smart on him for the second half. Was totally up for the challenge.
Chandler wrote:Celts might not want melo but they also don't want all their picks. They had 2 or three stashed picks from this year alone and a glut of guardsI would rather have Smart then Crowder but not a big fan of either, though Crowder is on a very team friendly contract.If they don't want melo I still see them as a player, e.g., love to celts, melo to cats picks and some role players to Knicks
In terms of players I like crowder but don't want to get too excited about him. I'd like him on team but also think good talent scouts (which thank god we have) can find other 3 and d guys
I'm nota jaylen brown fan. Reminds me in a strange way of D Williams. Too small for one position not enough shot for another. Some plays are highlights and the next are horrible.
I really like smart for some reason. He has a genuine tenacity. Totally different position but reminds me of draymond in being all about winning and doing the tough things like getting up in someone's grill on D. The celtics announcers sometimes refer to tough D as being willing to get hit in the face. I think there's some truth to that. Recall last season when KP was going off on celts. They put smart on him for the second half. Was totally up for the challenge.
Welpee wrote:I hate Smart but part of it is because of the way he plays. He could be a great Knick.Chandler wrote:Celts might not want melo but they also don't want all their picks. They had 2 or three stashed picks from this year alone and a glut of guardsI would rather have Smart then Crowder but not a big fan of either, though Crowder is on a very team friendly contract.If they don't want melo I still see them as a player, e.g., love to celts, melo to cats picks and some role players to Knicks
In terms of players I like crowder but don't want to get too excited about him. I'd like him on team but also think good talent scouts (which thank god we have) can find other 3 and d guys
I'm nota jaylen brown fan. Reminds me in a strange way of D Williams. Too small for one position not enough shot for another. Some plays are highlights and the next are horrible.
I really like smart for some reason. He has a genuine tenacity. Totally different position but reminds me of draymond in being all about winning and doing the tough things like getting up in someone's grill on D. The celtics announcers sometimes refer to tough D as being willing to get hit in the face. I think there's some truth to that. Recall last season when KP was going off on celts. They put smart on him for the second half. Was totally up for the challenge.
HofstraBBall wrote:SocraticBallin22 wrote:There are new reports surfacing today that Boston has renewed interest in trading for Melo before the deadline and that Knicks scouts have been at Celtic games recently. While I would love to acquire Boston's 1st round pick this year, which will be swapped for Brooklyn's pick and will most likely end up a top 3 lottery pick;--realistically, there is no way a prudent GM like Ainge would ever relinquish this pick for Melo to a GM who has made it publicly known he is desperate to unload his star, and whose said star holds a no trade clause and will only go to a hand selected amount of teams. This diminishes his trade value,although he has helped his stock the last few games while playing at the 4 putting up monstrous, old Melo-like numbers.Which brings me to my question: would you trade Melo for Crowder, Amir Johnson and Jerebko. On the surface it looks like we're not yielding much back in return, but I can make a strong case how this instantly helps our team and rebuilding.
1) Amir Johnson and Jerebko are expiring contracts. By trading Melo for these two contracts--not the players--we shed almost 20 million off the cap this summer. Add to that the 21 million that will come off the books at the end of the year for Rose's contract (no we are NOT extending him), we will have over 40 million dollars of cap flexibility going forward for our rebuilding process. By keeping Melo, we are stuck wit ha max contract for 2 more seasons after this one for a player who will not be a MAX player anymore (many would argue he is not a max player mpw with his athleticism eroding).
2) I must admit I did not know much about Jae Crowder until I did some research on him recently. All I knew was that he was a 2nd round pick, overachieving type of player whose known for his defense (something our team desperately needs). I also knew that Phil had interest in him last offseason, so he does like the player. In checking his stats this year, I was blown away. He is the starting small forward for one of the best teams in the eastern conference and here are his numbers:
In his last 10 games, he is averaging 18ppg and 6 rebounds shooting .517 from the field, while playing plus defense. Small sample size, right?
Well for the season, he is averaging 14ppg, 5 rebounds shooting .488 from the field and get this--the kicker--.427 from 3 point range! If that's not a prototypical 3 and D player, I don't know what is. He has developed his jump shot the last two years and is now a 2 way player (something we know Melo is not).
Moreover, he's only 26 years old and on a very friendly contract of about 6 million per year for the next 3 years, which coincide with his prime years of playing basketball (a huge asset).
If you plug him into the 3 to replace Melo, we instantly become a lot better defensively--our main weakness this year--while he still provides plenty of offense as a role player. Moreover, if you surround the court with the likes of Crowder, Lee (one of the best 3 point shooters in the league), Holiday, Baker and of course KP--we would become one of the deadliest 3 point shooting teams in the league!
In sum, we would shed 40 million dollars of payroll at the end of the season, add a young, talented and offensively developing role player like Crowder to our core, while still having our 1st round pick this summer, which will have a better chance of being a lottery pick--further enhancing the true rebuild and building around KP for the future.
In an ideal world, I would want a 1st round pick in return for Melo, but that may not be feasible right now, and this deal still has plenty of value for us and would serve the purpose of rebuilding.
Thoughts?!?
Being a big Melo supporter, surprise, would not want just a cap clearing move. Rather waive Noah thus clearing 38M. But getting Crowder, Smart or Brown and a future first rounder, yeah, can't say I can come up with a reason not to. But I thought the Celts came out and said they are no longer interested in Melo?
Another concern, as Knick fan, is if KP is ready to be the go to guy that can create under pressure when defenses focus on him? (Reason why you build around him) Just dont want to count on someone else getting him the ball in a good shooting spot or some coach running the right plays. Which a 7'3 guy will need, specially one without a polished post up game. And we have seen, for many years, that its hard to find the right complimentary players to help your star.
Melo is a guy that can create his own shot, even with defenses focused on him, wants the ball under pressure and is a major scoring threat. That is a tough thing to replace. But if Phil is pushing him out, package mentioned would be easier to take. Just hope everyone bunkers down for another decade of mediocre teams, as rebuilds have been proven to be quite challenging. We know that first hand.
I wouldn't be against waiving Noah, but I'm not sure how that would impact our cap situation. Can we use the amnesty clause on Noah and what would the hit be against our cap if he were outright waived? In any case, I don't think Phil would waive his big free agent acquisition in the 1st year of the contract and admit such a huge mistake--even if it were the best thing to do. I don't think his ego would allow it.
As far as KP being the 1st option and the main guy, I'm not sure if he's ready for that, either. Honestly, he doesn't look physically strong enough yet to me carry that load. But if we're truly rebuilding and hitting the reset button for once (like we should have a long time ago) it's in the best interest of the franchise to build the team around KP and have him be the centerpiece and ease into that role. For any true rebuild, there has to be a few losing seasons playing young players and acquiring lottery picks to develop, but it's the only effective way to turn your franchise around. It's time we finally did it the right way--the sooner, the better.
Boston really NEEDS to seriously consider getting Melo. They shouldn't waste their opportunity to take a shot at the Finals when they are within striking distance. Melo could put them over the top in the East. Why let holding on to a draft pick when you have so many, get in the way?
SocraticBallin22 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:SocraticBallin22 wrote:There are new reports surfacing today that Boston has renewed interest in trading for Melo before the deadline and that Knicks scouts have been at Celtic games recently. While I would love to acquire Boston's 1st round pick this year, which will be swapped for Brooklyn's pick and will most likely end up a top 3 lottery pick;--realistically, there is no way a prudent GM like Ainge would ever relinquish this pick for Melo to a GM who has made it publicly known he is desperate to unload his star, and whose said star holds a no trade clause and will only go to a hand selected amount of teams. This diminishes his trade value,although he has helped his stock the last few games while playing at the 4 putting up monstrous, old Melo-like numbers.Which brings me to my question: would you trade Melo for Crowder, Amir Johnson and Jerebko. On the surface it looks like we're not yielding much back in return, but I can make a strong case how this instantly helps our team and rebuilding.
1) Amir Johnson and Jerebko are expiring contracts. By trading Melo for these two contracts--not the players--we shed almost 20 million off the cap this summer. Add to that the 21 million that will come off the books at the end of the year for Rose's contract (no we are NOT extending him), we will have over 40 million dollars of cap flexibility going forward for our rebuilding process. By keeping Melo, we are stuck wit ha max contract for 2 more seasons after this one for a player who will not be a MAX player anymore (many would argue he is not a max player mpw with his athleticism eroding).
2) I must admit I did not know much about Jae Crowder until I did some research on him recently. All I knew was that he was a 2nd round pick, overachieving type of player whose known for his defense (something our team desperately needs). I also knew that Phil had interest in him last offseason, so he does like the player. In checking his stats this year, I was blown away. He is the starting small forward for one of the best teams in the eastern conference and here are his numbers:
In his last 10 games, he is averaging 18ppg and 6 rebounds shooting .517 from the field, while playing plus defense. Small sample size, right?
Well for the season, he is averaging 14ppg, 5 rebounds shooting .488 from the field and get this--the kicker--.427 from 3 point range! If that's not a prototypical 3 and D player, I don't know what is. He has developed his jump shot the last two years and is now a 2 way player (something we know Melo is not).
Moreover, he's only 26 years old and on a very friendly contract of about 6 million per year for the next 3 years, which coincide with his prime years of playing basketball (a huge asset).
If you plug him into the 3 to replace Melo, we instantly become a lot better defensively--our main weakness this year--while he still provides plenty of offense as a role player. Moreover, if you surround the court with the likes of Crowder, Lee (one of the best 3 point shooters in the league), Holiday, Baker and of course KP--we would become one of the deadliest 3 point shooting teams in the league!
In sum, we would shed 40 million dollars of payroll at the end of the season, add a young, talented and offensively developing role player like Crowder to our core, while still having our 1st round pick this summer, which will have a better chance of being a lottery pick--further enhancing the true rebuild and building around KP for the future.
In an ideal world, I would want a 1st round pick in return for Melo, but that may not be feasible right now, and this deal still has plenty of value for us and would serve the purpose of rebuilding.
Thoughts?!?
Being a big Melo supporter, surprise, would not want just a cap clearing move. Rather waive Noah thus clearing 38M. But getting Crowder, Smart or Brown and a future first rounder, yeah, can't say I can come up with a reason not to. But I thought the Celts came out and said they are no longer interested in Melo?
Another concern, as Knick fan, is if KP is ready to be the go to guy that can create under pressure when defenses focus on him? (Reason why you build around him) Just dont want to count on someone else getting him the ball in a good shooting spot or some coach running the right plays. Which a 7'3 guy will need, specially one without a polished post up game. And we have seen, for many years, that its hard to find the right complimentary players to help your star.
Melo is a guy that can create his own shot, even with defenses focused on him, wants the ball under pressure and is a major scoring threat. That is a tough thing to replace. But if Phil is pushing him out, package mentioned would be easier to take. Just hope everyone bunkers down for another decade of mediocre teams, as rebuilds have been proven to be quite challenging. We know that first hand.
I wouldn't be against waiving Noah, but I'm not sure how that would impact our cap situation. Can we use the amnesty clause on Noah and what would the hit be against our cap if he were outright waived? In any case, I don't think Phil would waive his big free agent acquisition in the 1st year of the contract and admit such a huge mistake--even if it were the best thing to do. I don't think his ego would allow it.
As far as KP being the 1st option and the main guy, I'm not sure if he's ready for that, either. Honestly, he doesn't look physically strong enough yet to me carry that load. But if we're truly rebuilding and hitting the reset button for once (like we should have a long time ago) it's in the best interest of the franchise to build the team around KP and have him be the centerpiece and ease into that role. For any true rebuild, there has to be a few losing seasons playing young players and acquiring lottery picks to develop, but it's the only effective way to turn your franchise around. It's time we finally did it the right way--the sooner, the better.
There is no amnesty clause in the new CBA; unforrunately, we are stuck with Noah until further notice. No point in trading him if we are rebuilding though. By all accounts, he is a good locker-room guy and will need his salary to hover around the salary cap floor (which I believe is approxinately $90 million).
Vmart wrote:Got to get the Nets pick out of any deal with Boston. People think Phil is the desperate one not so I think the Boston is the desperate team in this because they can win a championship if the get Melo or give the Cavs a run for their money. Adding Melo definitely puts them above the Raptors.They aren't giving up the BK pick.
CrushAlot wrote:Vmart wrote:Got to get the Nets pick out of any deal with Boston. People think Phil is the desperate one not so I think the Boston is the desperate team in this because they can win a championship if the get Melo or give the Cavs a run for their money. Adding Melo definitely puts them above the Raptors.They aren't giving up the BK pick.
MAN you've gotta try tho 😜 I'd be trying every angle, every dig at Boston not being able to beat the Cavs!!! 😁
CrushAlot wrote:Vmart wrote:Got to get the Nets pick out of any deal with Boston. People think Phil is the desperate one not so I think the Boston is the desperate team in this because they can win a championship if the get Melo or give the Cavs a run for their money. Adding Melo definitely puts them above the Raptors.They aren't giving up the BK pick.
What about if we swapped our picks for Brooklyns'?
CrushAlot wrote:Love is out with a back issue. Didn't travel with the Cavs.
SAS said he was breaking down last week due to back and knee issues- I thought he was BS-ing but then Love went down with back issues a few days later.
ekstarks94 wrote:SocraticBallin22 wrote:BigRedDog wrote:Where are these "new" reports?? I haven't seen anything...
https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/report-me...This report says that their Head Coach is interested in Melo while Ainge initially rejected offers for him. Melo has also stated that he would waive his No Trade for the Celtics. There are also reports of the Knicks scouting Celtics games recently. I think Ainge would make the deal if it didn't include their (BKN's) top 3 lottery pick.
Maybe I am giving him too much credit...but if Phil is trying to create leverage on the Clips and the Cavs by pushing BOS...that is a good move...drive the price up!!
The problem is with the leaked proposed deal being only Crawford & Rivers and maybe not even Redick, why would Boston offer anything other than scraps- where is their incentive to offer more? Just offering Smart and expiring deals would beat the Clips package.
Our only hope is if Lebron pushes the Cavs (who lost again) to deal for Melo, otherwise we're getting a very low return.
CrushAlot wrote:I really like Crowder. He was an undersized power forward in college that was really likable. He did not seem like he could make it with his size but he has become a really good player. I think you have to hope to get a couple of picks and a youngster. I believe they have to make a decision with their back court and might move Smart because of that. BK's picks aren't being moved but the Celts have a lot of assets. They would be the preferred trade partner of the teams mentioned.