Knicks · Can we stop acting like Phil is not looking out for the best interests of the Knicks? (page 1)

I like Melo. He's a good teammate. When this fourth quarter run happened, unlike Rose, I know he won't pout or be jealous that teammates KP/Willy stood up. Melo's a nice dude. He genuinely wants to win in New York and wants to see the young players do well.

However either Melo needs to allow KP to get a greater role and he needs to cut down on the iso ball, or Melo needs to move on. The iso ball kills this team on both ends. When teammates are not involved, they don't play hard on defense. Where has the Melo gone that was playing so well last season during the first half of the season? He was playing Lebron type of point forward ball. Not on Lebron's level, but passing, looking for the open man, trying to drive and kick. Right now all he does is isolate or shoot coming off a screen while dribbling. No teamwork involved in that.

Our motto the rest of the season should be to abandon iso ball. Rose and Melo play tooooo much iso ball. I mean Melo is such a great shooter, surely we can get him looks coming off screens or quick pull ups. He should play off Jennings or the point guard. Rose I have no clue how you get him plays in a team environment, he wants to always isolate and go to the basket himself. Melo can come more off the ball and get his jumpshots via feeds, and also look to drive and dish more like he was doing in 2015 under Fisher.

Anyway, Phil's got a good eye for young talent. He knows how to grab smaller, lesser known names who can come up and play well. Holiday another example. O'Quinn. The key for the Knicks moving forward is to draft well and to no longer sign any more vets over 25 years old in free agency (or trade for them). 25 and younger. That should be a staple. I hate hearing we are still trying to trade for Love. I don't want him. He's about to begin the downward trend of his career.

As bad as this season has gone, we will probably learn some key lessons from it. We'll hopefully figure out who we want longterm (such as KP, Willy, O'Quinn, Holiday, maybe Jennings as well) and who we want to draft and bring in through free agency. I hope tonight gives the front office more faith that they can rebuild in New York. We don't need stars or big names just about to decline or still thinking they are superstars (such as Rose). We need good young players who will play hard, play together and allow the draft picks like Porzingis, Willy and whomever we draft in 2017, to grow as players.

Eff the brand name, the star power. I don't care for it all. I want a team of young players that plays hard and plays like a team. If we continue to draft well, in a few years we'll be a contender.

Also, Horny's a completely different looking coach when the game runs through a PG who is calling his plays like Jennings was in the 4th, vs when the game runs through Melo or Rose. He looks like a very good coach when the point guard runs his sets.

Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.

Great great point. Just imagine. This year he picked baker and plumlee without picks. Imagine if he had the

The contract to Noah was ridiculous. It's the one move I'll really hold against him. He thought he could create some of that Rose/Noah magic from Chicago mixed in with what he wants to do with KP and company.

I hope we continue to draft well, look for young players. Stop signing or trading for stars who are past their best and will never make an all star team again. I really think Melo, Rose and Noah will never make the all star team again. Noah for sure. Rose most likely. Melo may sneak in again if he plays well on a contender next year. But we pay them like they still are bonafide all stars. That's where Jackson has to correct his mistakes. Rose is a last year contract. Melo is on the trade block. Only thing that pisses the F out of me is Noah starting constantly. Fine Willy is a rookie and you want to bring him along slowly. Start O'Quinn. Use Plumlee. Noah stinks up the joint 9 out of 10 times.

Longterm though I like what Phil is doing. Capspace. Draft picks. Build around KP. He's doing the right thing in putting Melo on the block, even though Melo is a damn good scorer and a good teammate (off the court, on the court he needs to share the ball more). With each day, I begin to like an Austin Rivers, capspace, draft pick deal more. I think Melo is 3 times the players Rivers is, but we need to get younger, more athletic and to play team ball around KP.

nyknickzingis wrote:I've said many times the lack of picks really hurt what Phil could do. He didn't have any young talent to work with outside of KP in 2015. Yet he has found some young players. Out of nowhere. Willy. Kuz. O'Quinn. Holiday. Most of them are off the bench level players, but what can you do with no first round picks.

The contract to Noah was ridiculous. It's the one move I'll really hold against him. He thought he could create some of that Rose/Noah magic from Chicago mixed in with what he wants to do with KP and company.

I hope we continue to draft well, look for young players. Stop signing or trading for stars who are past their best and will never make an all star team again. I really think Melo, Rose and Noah will never make the all star team again. Noah for sure. Rose most likely. Melo may sneak in again if he plays well on a contender next year. But we pay them like they still are bonafide all stars. That's where Jackson has to correct his mistakes. Rose is a last year contract. Melo is on the trade block. Only thing that pisses the F out of me is Noah starting constantly. Fine Willy is a rookie and you want to bring him along slowly. Start O'Quinn. Use Plumlee. Noah stinks up the joint 9 out of 10 times.

Longterm though I like what Phil is doing. Capspace. Draft picks. Build around KP. He's doing the right thing in putting Melo on the block, even though Melo is a damn good scorer and a good teammate (off the court, on the court he needs to share the ball more). With each day, I begin to like an Austin Rivers, capspace, draft pick deal more. I think Melo is 3 times the players Rivers is, but we need to get younger, more athletic and to play team ball around KP.

I'm glad that we're being positive about Phil and his protecting our picks, but let's keep this real... Phil is not the one we should thank for KP and Willy etc. Phil readily admits that he's not the guy who can scout and predict which players with raw talent are worth selecting. Phil said he fully relies on Gaines and his scouts. Phil said he's better with NBA players than trying to gauge young talent. Phil was smart to bring in Gaines who is a true scout and has been doing it for a long time.

Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.

Yes, this is a good point.

Phil has drafted well.

Free agents and trades have not been great.

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I've said many times the lack of picks really hurt what Phil could do. He didn't have any young talent to work with outside of KP in 2015. Yet he has found some young players. Out of nowhere. Willy. Kuz. O'Quinn. Holiday. Most of them are off the bench level players, but what can you do with no first round picks.

The contract to Noah was ridiculous. It's the one move I'll really hold against him. He thought he could create some of that Rose/Noah magic from Chicago mixed in with what he wants to do with KP and company.

I hope we continue to draft well, look for young players. Stop signing or trading for stars who are past their best and will never make an all star team again. I really think Melo, Rose and Noah will never make the all star team again. Noah for sure. Rose most likely. Melo may sneak in again if he plays well on a contender next year. But we pay them like they still are bonafide all stars. That's where Jackson has to correct his mistakes. Rose is a last year contract. Melo is on the trade block. Only thing that pisses the F out of me is Noah starting constantly. Fine Willy is a rookie and you want to bring him along slowly. Start O'Quinn. Use Plumlee. Noah stinks up the joint 9 out of 10 times.

Longterm though I like what Phil is doing. Capspace. Draft picks. Build around KP. He's doing the right thing in putting Melo on the block, even though Melo is a damn good scorer and a good teammate (off the court, on the court he needs to share the ball more). With each day, I begin to like an Austin Rivers, capspace, draft pick deal more. I think Melo is 3 times the players Rivers is, but we need to get younger, more athletic and to play team ball around KP.

I'm glad that we're being positive about Phil and his protecting our picks, but let's keep this real... Phil is not the one we should thank for KP and Willy etc. Phil readily admits that he's not the guy who can scout and predict which players with raw talent are worth selecting. Phil said he fully relies on Gaines and his scouts. Phil said he's better with NBA players than trying to gauge young talent. Phil was smart to bring in Gaines who is a true scout and has been doing it for a long time.

I'm not a Phil apologist, but being an effective leader isn't knowing everything. Being an effective leader is knowing when someone knows more than you in a certain area and putting those people in spots they can be most successful for the good of the long term goal while trusting those people to use the skills that they have capably.

Phil may not have scouted KP or Willy, but he has a scout that knows Europe and European players and can see how they may translate to the NBA. He is the one who put that scout in place, he is the one who was open enough to listen to that scout (especially about Willy, who wasn't even supposed to be scouted), and he had the final say on who was picked. Phil should at least get some of the credit, it wasn't all Gaines.

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.

Yes, this is a good point.

Phil has drafted well.

Free agents and trades have not been great.

I think his weak spot is trades. Although in the Rose trade he left himself an out after a year.

Afflalo was a bad signing that he worked out of.

Lopez was a good signing until he was traded.

D. Williams was a good signing (would have been a good fit with Horny as coach)

Lee is a push.

Noah was overpaid.

NOT offering Monroe the max was a good non-move.

Phil has definately been a mixed bag. His (Gaines) Euro game is strong. Trades i still think he has to work on not leaving value on the table.

joec32033 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.

Yes, this is a good point.

Phil has drafted well.

Free agents and trades have not been great.

I think his weak spot is trades. Although in the Rose trade he left himself an out after a year.

Afflalo was a bad signing that he worked out of.

Lopez was a good signing until he was traded.

D. Williams was a good signing (would have been a good fit with Horny as coach)

Lee is a push.

Noah was overpaid.

NOT offering Monroe the max was a good non-move.

Phil has definately been a mixed bag. His (Gaines) Euro game is strong. Trades i still think he has to work on not leaving value on the table.

I can't forgive or forget the Tyson Chandler for Calderon trade or the Shump/JR for nothin' trade.

Free Agency has been ok... not great... but I think FA is tough in the league now, also no one really wants to come to NY because they see how it goes.

Courtney Lee is my favorite FA signing, Jennings I've liked, too. And Rolo

My favorite trade though was the Jerian Grant one and he undid that when he traded him and Rolo. Anyway. It's been a mixed bax.

I do strongly agree that if he'd had first round picks in 2014 and 2016 this team would be massively different and probably quite good.

joec32033 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.

Yes, this is a good point.

Phil has drafted well.

Free agents and trades have not been great.

I think his weak spot is trades. Although in the Rose trade he left himself an out after a year.

Afflalo was a bad signing that he worked out of.

Lopez was a good signing until he was traded.

D. Williams was a good signing (would have been a good fit with Horny as coach)

Lee is a push.

Noah was overpaid.

NOT offering Monroe the max was a good non-move.

Phil has definately been a mixed bag. His (Gaines) Euro game is strong. Trades i still think he has to work on not leaving value on the table.

Still wished he was allowed to hire a competent young NBA mind to be the GM. Someone not named Steve Mills

crzymdups wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.

Yes, this is a good point.

Phil has drafted well.

Free agents and trades have not been great.

I think his weak spot is trades. Although in the Rose trade he left himself an out after a year.

Afflalo was a bad signing that he worked out of.

Lopez was a good signing until he was traded.

D. Williams was a good signing (would have been a good fit with Horny as coach)

Lee is a push.

Noah was overpaid.

NOT offering Monroe the max was a good non-move.

Phil has definately been a mixed bag. His (Gaines) Euro game is strong. Trades i still think he has to work on not leaving value on the table.

I can't forgive or forget the Tyson Chandler for Calderon trade or the Shump/JR for nothin' trade.

Free Agency has been ok... not great... but I think FA is tough in the league now, also no one really wants to come to NY because they see how it goes.

Courtney Lee is my favorite FA signing, Jennings I've liked, too. And Rolo

My favorite trade though was the Jerian Grant one and he undid that when he traded him and Rolo. Anyway. It's been a mixed bax.

I do strongly agree that if he'd had first round picks in 2014 and 2016 this team would be massively different and probably quite good.

I forgive the Tyson trade because at the time Tyson was turning tide against Woodson. His "leadership" was turning to malcontent. He was hurt constantly. Everyone points to the 2 picks Cleveland gave for Mozgov, but Lebron wanted him, he was on a cheaper cobtract, was younger and more durable than Chandler. And Chandler was probably my favorite Knick in that time period, but his attitude started to turn me off.

The Shump/JR trade is what it was. It was to dump JR and Shump was the price. Shump by himself was only going to get us a back end 1st rounder and it netted us the equvilant talentwise in Lance. Lets not forget JR was unraveling and Melo wasn't/isn't capable of curbing him like Lebron is.

gunsnewing wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.

Yes, this is a good point.

Phil has drafted well.

Free agents and trades have not been great.

I think his weak spot is trades. Although in the Rose trade he left himself an out after a year.

Afflalo was a bad signing that he worked out of.

Lopez was a good signing until he was traded.

D. Williams was a good signing (would have been a good fit with Horny as coach)

Lee is a push.

Noah was overpaid.

NOT offering Monroe the max was a good non-move.

Phil has definately been a mixed bag. His (Gaines) Euro game is strong. Trades i still think he has to work on not leaving value on the table.

Still wished he was allowed to hire a competent young NBA mind to be the GM. Someone not named Steve Mills

This I agree with. But this may be more of a Dolan thing than a Phil thing. Thing that gets me is, Phil is the pres. Mills the GM. A week or two ago news dropped teams couldnt get in touch with Phil, "only" Mills. The chain of command should be opposing GM to Mills who talks to Phil.

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I've said many times the lack of picks really hurt what Phil could do. He didn't have any young talent to work with outside of KP in 2015. Yet he has found some young players. Out of nowhere. Willy. Kuz. O'Quinn. Holiday. Most of them are off the bench level players, but what can you do with no first round picks.

The contract to Noah was ridiculous. It's the one move I'll really hold against him. He thought he could create some of that Rose/Noah magic from Chicago mixed in with what he wants to do with KP and company.

I hope we continue to draft well, look for young players. Stop signing or trading for stars who are past their best and will never make an all star team again. I really think Melo, Rose and Noah will never make the all star team again. Noah for sure. Rose most likely. Melo may sneak in again if he plays well on a contender next year. But we pay them like they still are bonafide all stars. That's where Jackson has to correct his mistakes. Rose is a last year contract. Melo is on the trade block. Only thing that pisses the F out of me is Noah starting constantly. Fine Willy is a rookie and you want to bring him along slowly. Start O'Quinn. Use Plumlee. Noah stinks up the joint 9 out of 10 times.

Longterm though I like what Phil is doing. Capspace. Draft picks. Build around KP. He's doing the right thing in putting Melo on the block, even though Melo is a damn good scorer and a good teammate (off the court, on the court he needs to share the ball more). With each day, I begin to like an Austin Rivers, capspace, draft pick deal more. I think Melo is 3 times the players Rivers is, but we need to get younger, more athletic and to play team ball around KP.

I'm glad that we're being positive about Phil and his protecting our picks, but let's keep this real... Phil is not the one we should thank for KP and Willy etc. Phil readily admits that he's not the guy who can scout and predict which players with raw talent are worth selecting. Phil said he fully relies on Gaines and his scouts. Phil said he's better with NBA players than trying to gauge young talent. Phil was smart to bring in Gaines who is a true scout and has been doing it for a long time.

He was also smart to let someone who had a good eye for talent make the call instead of saying he would only draft players who play the triangle. So he does deserve some credit for that.

Phil deserves the blame for the Noah contract but not the blame for playing him or Melo and Rose. That lies on Hornacek. It's time to do the obvious and limit PT for the big 3 and/or bench them. Melo and Rose are still very useful when they are dialed in. Noah has been garbage

This years lottery pick is huge. Need a perimeter player. A ball handling wing or guard that can defend. Sure an all star would be great. Not always available late in the lottery. Just get a staring caliber two way player that complements KP and Willy. That's 3 pieces. Maybe get 1 young starter from a Melo trade. Free agency money to get the 5th starter. Keep the bench for some continuity. OQuinn, Kuz, Holiday, Lee and Jennings make a good bench for next year.

While many are thinking Phil is trying to get Melo out of town for showing his authority I think it has nothing to do with that. A small great a scorer as Melo is, he just doesn't play team ball as the man and does not defend. Leadership void. Phil gave him a great chance with Rose, Lee, KP. It hasn't worked out. The right move is to look for what we can do longterm.

joec32033 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.

Yes, this is a good point.

Phil has drafted well.

Free agents and trades have not been great.

I think his weak spot is trades. Although in the Rose trade he left himself an out after a year.

Afflalo was a bad signing that he worked out of.

Lopez was a good signing until he was traded.

D. Williams was a good signing (would have been a good fit with Horny as coach)

Lee is a push.

Noah was overpaid.

NOT offering Monroe the max was a good non-move.

Phil has definately been a mixed bag. His (Gaines) Euro game is strong. Trades i still think he has to work on not leaving value on the table.

I can't forgive or forget the Tyson Chandler for Calderon trade or the Shump/JR for nothin' trade.

Free Agency has been ok... not great... but I think FA is tough in the league now, also no one really wants to come to NY because they see how it goes.

Courtney Lee is my favorite FA signing, Jennings I've liked, too. And Rolo

My favorite trade though was the Jerian Grant one and he undid that when he traded him and Rolo. Anyway. It's been a mixed bax.

I do strongly agree that if he'd had first round picks in 2014 and 2016 this team would be massively different and probably quite good.

I forgive the Tyson trade because at the time Tyson was turning tide against Woodson. His "leadership" was turning to malcontent. He was hurt constantly. Everyone points to the 2 picks Cleveland gave for Mozgov, but Lebron wanted him, he was on a cheaper cobtract, was younger and more durable than Chandler. And Chandler was probably my favorite Knick in that time period, but his attitude started to turn me off.

The Shump/JR trade is what it was. It was to dump JR and Shump was the price. Shump by himself was only going to get us a back end 1st rounder and it netted us the equvilant talentwise in Lance. Lets not forget JR was unraveling and Melo wasn't/isn't capable of curbing him like Lebron is.

The thing about the Chandler trade is Phil admitted his biggest mistake was not talking Jae Crowder in that deal. The narrative of his trading ability changes with that one minor adjustment of taking Crowder instead of grabbing the 2nd round pick which became C Early. One move can change how a GM is viewed in this aspect and this is the one non-move that would have given us confidence in his ability to win trades.

If you had a Buggatti, would you hire a rookie to drive and a rookie service guy? If you did, anything that goes wrong, you had to expect it, coming from a rookie.

With that said, Fisher, Hornacek and Phil has met my expectations as rookie / young experienced coaches / GMs in the biggest sports market in the world.

blkexec wrote:I would never fault a rookie or lean too hard on their negatives. Rookies learn on the job. Phil and Hornacek are both rookies at their current position. The person we all could blame is Dolan.

If you had a Buggatti, would you hire a rookie to drive and a rookie service guy? If you did, anything that goes wrong, you had to expect it, coming from a rookie.

With that said, Fisher, Hornacek and Phil has met my expectations as rookie / young experienced coaches / GMs in the biggest sports market in the world.

This is definitely a tough job. Dolan wants butts in seats and so Phil had to do the big name thing at the same time he was doing the right thing for the franchise by putting a new young core together underneath the name Vets. Despite the difficulty in doing that Phil has indeed started to build for the future.

blkexec wrote:I would never fault a rookie or lean too hard on their negatives. Rookies learn on the job. Phil and Hornacek are both rookies at their current position. The person we all could blame is Dolan.

If you had a Buggatti, would you hire a rookie to drive and a rookie service guy? If you did, anything that goes wrong, you had to expect it, coming from a rookie.

With that said, Fisher, Hornacek and Phil has met my expectations as rookie / young experienced coaches / GMs in the biggest sports market in the world.

Phil is a rookie in his 4th season? I do agree that all the problems trace to Dolan though.

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.

Yes, this is a good point.

Phil has drafted well.

Free agents and trades have not been great.

Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.

Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.

I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.

Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,