Knicks · Can we stop acting like Phil is not looking out for the best interests of the Knicks? (page 2)
crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Knixkik wrote:joec32033 wrote:crzymdups wrote:joec32033 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
I think his weak spot is trades. Although in the Rose trade he left himself an out after a year.
Afflalo was a bad signing that he worked out of.
Lopez was a good signing until he was traded.
D. Williams was a good signing (would have been a good fit with Horny as coach)
Lee is a push.
Noah was overpaid.
NOT offering Monroe the max was a good non-move.
Phil has definately been a mixed bag. His (Gaines) Euro game is strong. Trades i still think he has to work on not leaving value on the table.
I can't forgive or forget the Tyson Chandler for Calderon trade or the Shump/JR for nothin' trade.
Free Agency has been ok... not great... but I think FA is tough in the league now, also no one really wants to come to NY because they see how it goes.
Courtney Lee is my favorite FA signing, Jennings I've liked, too. And Rolo
My favorite trade though was the Jerian Grant one and he undid that when he traded him and Rolo. Anyway. It's been a mixed bax.
I do strongly agree that if he'd had first round picks in 2014 and 2016 this team would be massively different and probably quite good.
I forgive the Tyson trade because at the time Tyson was turning tide against Woodson. His "leadership" was turning to malcontent. He was hurt constantly. Everyone points to the 2 picks Cleveland gave for Mozgov, but Lebron wanted him, he was on a cheaper cobtract, was younger and more durable than Chandler. And Chandler was probably my favorite Knick in that time period, but his attitude started to turn me off.
The Shump/JR trade is what it was. It was to dump JR and Shump was the price. Shump by himself was only going to get us a back end 1st rounder and it netted us the equvilant talentwise in Lance. Lets not forget JR was unraveling and Melo wasn't/isn't capable of curbing him like Lebron is.
The thing about the Chandler trade is Phil admitted his biggest mistake was not talking Jae Crowder in that deal. The narrative of his trading ability changes with that one minor adjustment of taking Crowder instead of grabbing the 2nd round pick which became C Early. One move can change how a GM is viewed in this aspect and this is the one non-move that would have given us confidence in his ability to win trades.
Hey I agree, I love Crowder, but be honest did youbsee Crowder turning into what he is now? Crowder was just another swingman in Dallas following in the lineage of Josh Howard, the other guy with the funny haircut (Marquis Daniels) et al...all the same type of player. Yeah, hindsight Crowder has turned into this year's Demarre Carroll-Atlanta Version. He would be a great fit on this team or any team as a glue guy, but all GM's have that deal that they left money on the table after a few years to let deals marinate.
nyknickzingis wrote:Another thing is that with good ball movement the Triangle and half court sets look better. Some are upset at Phil for saying what he did about Melo in December but he was spot on. Melo does not move the ball. Historically teams with Melo play way too much isolation ball. Add Rose to that it becomes an isolation fest.While many are thinking Phil is trying to get Melo out of town for showing his authority I think it has nothing to do with that. A small great a scorer as Melo is, he just doesn't play team ball as the man and does not defend. Leadership void. Phil gave him a great chance with Rose, Lee, KP. It hasn't worked out. The right move is to look for what we can do longterm.
This post rang true for me.
On offense, Melo will ignore complete sets and just hold ball and do his dance and shoot, no matter where he is and no matter who is guarding him or who else has a great mis-match. He has blinders to his own game, and his game left him a couple years back. And Melo can barely blow by defenders these days, just can't. DadMelo shows up once every 10 games. OlympicMelo shows up for a quarter or a half and then fades and complicates the other parts of the game by shooting as if still hot.
Man there are so many examples of him switching on D in the Nets when it is COMPLETELY unnecessary. Or he will point to an opponent as if someone else should pick that guy up when it is actually his guy and he is the closest person but dropped off too much or can't recover because he doesn't want to put effort or is too slow. Melo NEVER fights around/over a pick, just lets himself get caught in it, just gives up.
I will never understand a player who is quick enough of the offensive end but can't be quick moving around a pick to chase their guy. Rose is one of the fastest guys to the rim but one of the slowest when chasing his own man on D.
You definitely need elite players to win in the playoffs (or get to the playoffs) but they must also be team players, involving others and playing your part in the team. Melo and Rose do not, both on offense and on defense.
knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.
Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...
holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...
Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.
I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.
martin wrote:Martin I totally agree. I had great promise based on how (dad)Melo played last year. Hoped for the same this year. I thought with a more mature KP and some extra firepower we would see more of that. Its been the opposite. More ball holding, more ball stopping, less defense, more complaining about calls... this might be the most disappointing year Melo's been here IMO.nyknickzingis wrote:Another thing is that with good ball movement the Triangle and half court sets look better. Some are upset at Phil for saying what he did about Melo in December but he was spot on. Melo does not move the ball. Historically teams with Melo play way too much isolation ball. Add Rose to that it becomes an isolation fest.While many are thinking Phil is trying to get Melo out of town for showing his authority I think it has nothing to do with that. A small great a scorer as Melo is, he just doesn't play team ball as the man and does not defend. Leadership void. Phil gave him a great chance with Rose, Lee, KP. It hasn't worked out. The right move is to look for what we can do longterm.
This post rang true for me.
On offense, Melo will ignore complete sets and just hold ball and do his dance and shoot, no matter where he is and no matter who is guarding him or who else has a great mis-match. He has blinders to his own game, and his game left him a couple years back. And Melo can barely blow by defenders these days, just can't. DadMelo shows up once every 10 games. OlympicMelo shows up for a quarter or a half and then fades and complicates the other parts of the game by shooting as if still hot.
Man there are so many examples of him switching on D in the Nets when it is COMPLETELY unnecessary. Or he will point to an opponent as if someone else should pick that guy up when it is actually his guy and he is the closest person but dropped off too much or can't recover because he doesn't want to put effort or is too slow. Melo NEVER fights around/over a pick, just lets himself get caught in it, just gives up.
I will never understand a player who is quick enough of the offensive end but can't be quick moving around a pick to chase their guy. Rose is one of the fastest guys to the rim but one of the slowest when chasing his own man on D.
You definitely need elite players to win in the playoffs (or get to the playoffs) but they must also be team players, involving others and playing your part in the team. Melo and Rose do not, both on offense and on defense.
He's still a valuable player but if I can get any good return for him I am happy to move him at this point.
Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.
Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
fishmike wrote:martin wrote:Martin I totally agree. I had great promise based on how (dad)Melo played last year. Hoped for the same this year. I thought with a more mature KP and some extra firepower we would see more of that. Its been the opposite. More ball holding, more ball stopping, less defense, more complaining about calls... this might be the most disappointing year Melo's been here IMO.nyknickzingis wrote:Another thing is that with good ball movement the Triangle and half court sets look better. Some are upset at Phil for saying what he did about Melo in December but he was spot on. Melo does not move the ball. Historically teams with Melo play way too much isolation ball. Add Rose to that it becomes an isolation fest.While many are thinking Phil is trying to get Melo out of town for showing his authority I think it has nothing to do with that. A small great a scorer as Melo is, he just doesn't play team ball as the man and does not defend. Leadership void. Phil gave him a great chance with Rose, Lee, KP. It hasn't worked out. The right move is to look for what we can do longterm.
This post rang true for me.
On offense, Melo will ignore complete sets and just hold ball and do his dance and shoot, no matter where he is and no matter who is guarding him or who else has a great mis-match. He has blinders to his own game, and his game left him a couple years back. And Melo can barely blow by defenders these days, just can't. DadMelo shows up once every 10 games. OlympicMelo shows up for a quarter or a half and then fades and complicates the other parts of the game by shooting as if still hot.
Man there are so many examples of him switching on D in the Nets when it is COMPLETELY unnecessary. Or he will point to an opponent as if someone else should pick that guy up when it is actually his guy and he is the closest person but dropped off too much or can't recover because he doesn't want to put effort or is too slow. Melo NEVER fights around/over a pick, just lets himself get caught in it, just gives up.
I will never understand a player who is quick enough of the offensive end but can't be quick moving around a pick to chase their guy. Rose is one of the fastest guys to the rim but one of the slowest when chasing his own man on D.
You definitely need elite players to win in the playoffs (or get to the playoffs) but they must also be team players, involving others and playing your part in the team. Melo and Rose do not, both on offense and on defense.
He's still a valuable player but if I can get any good return for him I am happy to move him at this point.
the microcosm of Melo: double team comes, he turns and falls away for a jumper. He hits it, Melo is amazing. If not, same old Melo. I venture to guess most of the true superstars, e.g., Lebron, Kawhi, CP3 etc. somehow find the guy who was left alone for a 10x easier shot
And don't get me started on defense. That's this teams biggest issue by far. Say what you want about an elite pg and KP and Willy, etc., but we are consistently putrid, consistently yielding 30 point first quartes where we don't even have the excuse of being tired. Whatever his limitations, Melo if he's the leader he claims to be should be leading by effort and example on that end of the court. Same too for Rose
holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
If our alluding to the Woodson led 54 win team, yes, the guy is not a "Cancer" and has tangible skills. That team was a juggernut the first half of the season with Kidd and Sheed playing great ball until old man time came a'lookin and snatched their yoot.
I do think this team is capable of making the playoffs and SHOULD given the talent. I think Phil can do this and rebuild on the fly. I don't see a team giving up on its coach. I see chemistry issues, injuries (Predictable) and unfortunately some really bad heartbreaking losses where the team did not close out. I am on record the process of closing out came faster than I expected but they have regressed.
My take is Melo and Phil have a civil understanding that if the right deal can be made for both, it should be explored. If not, they can live with each other.
holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin's and Luis Scola's backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...
Chandler wrote:Melo has been a horrific defender this year (according to holfresh this is Phil's fault). Bottom line is Melo still sees himself as the best first and 2nd option on the team and him forcing long jumpers against athletic defenders is a better play than being a part of a 5-5 offense.fishmike wrote:martin wrote:Martin I totally agree. I had great promise based on how (dad)Melo played last year. Hoped for the same this year. I thought with a more mature KP and some extra firepower we would see more of that. Its been the opposite. More ball holding, more ball stopping, less defense, more complaining about calls... this might be the most disappointing year Melo's been here IMO.nyknickzingis wrote:Another thing is that with good ball movement the Triangle and half court sets look better. Some are upset at Phil for saying what he did about Melo in December but he was spot on. Melo does not move the ball. Historically teams with Melo play way too much isolation ball. Add Rose to that it becomes an isolation fest.While many are thinking Phil is trying to get Melo out of town for showing his authority I think it has nothing to do with that. A small great a scorer as Melo is, he just doesn't play team ball as the man and does not defend. Leadership void. Phil gave him a great chance with Rose, Lee, KP. It hasn't worked out. The right move is to look for what we can do longterm.
This post rang true for me.
On offense, Melo will ignore complete sets and just hold ball and do his dance and shoot, no matter where he is and no matter who is guarding him or who else has a great mis-match. He has blinders to his own game, and his game left him a couple years back. And Melo can barely blow by defenders these days, just can't. DadMelo shows up once every 10 games. OlympicMelo shows up for a quarter or a half and then fades and complicates the other parts of the game by shooting as if still hot.
Man there are so many examples of him switching on D in the Nets when it is COMPLETELY unnecessary. Or he will point to an opponent as if someone else should pick that guy up when it is actually his guy and he is the closest person but dropped off too much or can't recover because he doesn't want to put effort or is too slow. Melo NEVER fights around/over a pick, just lets himself get caught in it, just gives up.
I will never understand a player who is quick enough of the offensive end but can't be quick moving around a pick to chase their guy. Rose is one of the fastest guys to the rim but one of the slowest when chasing his own man on D.
You definitely need elite players to win in the playoffs (or get to the playoffs) but they must also be team players, involving others and playing your part in the team. Melo and Rose do not, both on offense and on defense.
He's still a valuable player but if I can get any good return for him I am happy to move him at this point.
the microcosm of Melo: double team comes, he turns and falls away for a jumper. He hits it, Melo is amazing. If not, same old Melo. I venture to guess most of the true superstars, e.g., Lebron, Kawhi, CP3 etc. somehow find the guy who was left alone for a 10x easier shot
And don't get me started on defense. That's this teams biggest issue by far. Say what you want about an elite pg and KP and Willy, etc., but we are consistently putrid, consistently yielding 30 point first quartes where we don't even have the excuse of being tired. Whatever his limitations, Melo if he's the leader he claims to be should be leading by effort and example on that end of the court. Same too for Rose
Blame Phil all you want... when you look at the FAs and trades that happened this offseason the Knicks did a good job adding firepower and players to get this team over the hump and back to the playoffs.
What we learned since then:
Noah is a ball mover and a terrible fit next to the iso heavy Melo/Rose/KP scoring trio
Rose can score but not much else
Melo's defense and passing have regressed to Al Harrington levels
Courtney Lee is a really nice role player. Asking him to impact the game every night isnt who he is
Was there another driving force behind these moves besides having Melo on the roster? Wasnt that whole offseason about "are we moving fast enough for you?"
I think what we learned this year is that if Melo is a force and personality that needs to be catered to we are not going to reach a high level of success. His numbers stink and he really fails the eye test. Still an impact player, but the timing is wrong for this roster.
holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...
Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
fishmike wrote:Chandler wrote:Melo has been a horrific defender this year (according to holfresh this is Phil's fault). Bottom line is Melo still sees himself as the best first and 2nd option on the team and him forcing long jumpers against athletic defenders is a better play than being a part of a 5-5 offense.fishmike wrote:martin wrote:Martin I totally agree. I had great promise based on how (dad)Melo played last year. Hoped for the same this year. I thought with a more mature KP and some extra firepower we would see more of that. Its been the opposite. More ball holding, more ball stopping, less defense, more complaining about calls... this might be the most disappointing year Melo's been here IMO.nyknickzingis wrote:Another thing is that with good ball movement the Triangle and half court sets look better. Some are upset at Phil for saying what he did about Melo in December but he was spot on. Melo does not move the ball. Historically teams with Melo play way too much isolation ball. Add Rose to that it becomes an isolation fest.While many are thinking Phil is trying to get Melo out of town for showing his authority I think it has nothing to do with that. A small great a scorer as Melo is, he just doesn't play team ball as the man and does not defend. Leadership void. Phil gave him a great chance with Rose, Lee, KP. It hasn't worked out. The right move is to look for what we can do longterm.
This post rang true for me.
On offense, Melo will ignore complete sets and just hold ball and do his dance and shoot, no matter where he is and no matter who is guarding him or who else has a great mis-match. He has blinders to his own game, and his game left him a couple years back. And Melo can barely blow by defenders these days, just can't. DadMelo shows up once every 10 games. OlympicMelo shows up for a quarter or a half and then fades and complicates the other parts of the game by shooting as if still hot.
Man there are so many examples of him switching on D in the Nets when it is COMPLETELY unnecessary. Or he will point to an opponent as if someone else should pick that guy up when it is actually his guy and he is the closest person but dropped off too much or can't recover because he doesn't want to put effort or is too slow. Melo NEVER fights around/over a pick, just lets himself get caught in it, just gives up.
I will never understand a player who is quick enough of the offensive end but can't be quick moving around a pick to chase their guy. Rose is one of the fastest guys to the rim but one of the slowest when chasing his own man on D.
You definitely need elite players to win in the playoffs (or get to the playoffs) but they must also be team players, involving others and playing your part in the team. Melo and Rose do not, both on offense and on defense.
He's still a valuable player but if I can get any good return for him I am happy to move him at this point.
the microcosm of Melo: double team comes, he turns and falls away for a jumper. He hits it, Melo is amazing. If not, same old Melo. I venture to guess most of the true superstars, e.g., Lebron, Kawhi, CP3 etc. somehow find the guy who was left alone for a 10x easier shot
And don't get me started on defense. That's this teams biggest issue by far. Say what you want about an elite pg and KP and Willy, etc., but we are consistently putrid, consistently yielding 30 point first quartes where we don't even have the excuse of being tired. Whatever his limitations, Melo if he's the leader he claims to be should be leading by effort and example on that end of the court. Same too for Rose
Blame Phil all you want... when you look at the FAs and trades that happened this offseason the Knicks did a good job adding firepower and players to get this team over the hump and back to the playoffs.
What we learned since then:
Noah is a ball mover and a terrible fit next to the iso heavy Melo/Rose/KP scoring trio
Rose can score but not much else
Melo's defense and passing have regressed to Al Harrington levels
Courtney Lee is a really nice role player. Asking him to impact the game every night isnt who he isWas there another driving force behind these moves besides having Melo on the roster? Wasnt that whole offseason about "are we moving fast enough for you?"
I think what we learned this year is that if Melo is a force and personality that needs to be catered to we are not going to reach a high level of success. His numbers stink and he really fails the eye test. Still an impact player, but the timing is wrong for this roster.
good assessment IMO. We would be so much happier if we had a high quality Payton- or Billups-type pg at the moment who played D and distributed well. Phil would be a genius and Melo would only get the ball for easy shots.
Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
joec32033 wrote:Knixkik wrote:joec32033 wrote:crzymdups wrote:joec32033 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
I think his weak spot is trades. Although in the Rose trade he left himself an out after a year.
Afflalo was a bad signing that he worked out of.
Lopez was a good signing until he was traded.
D. Williams was a good signing (would have been a good fit with Horny as coach)
Lee is a push.
Noah was overpaid.
NOT offering Monroe the max was a good non-move.
Phil has definately been a mixed bag. His (Gaines) Euro game is strong. Trades i still think he has to work on not leaving value on the table.
I can't forgive or forget the Tyson Chandler for Calderon trade or the Shump/JR for nothin' trade.
Free Agency has been ok... not great... but I think FA is tough in the league now, also no one really wants to come to NY because they see how it goes.
Courtney Lee is my favorite FA signing, Jennings I've liked, too. And Rolo
My favorite trade though was the Jerian Grant one and he undid that when he traded him and Rolo. Anyway. It's been a mixed bax.
I do strongly agree that if he'd had first round picks in 2014 and 2016 this team would be massively different and probably quite good.
I forgive the Tyson trade because at the time Tyson was turning tide against Woodson. His "leadership" was turning to malcontent. He was hurt constantly. Everyone points to the 2 picks Cleveland gave for Mozgov, but Lebron wanted him, he was on a cheaper cobtract, was younger and more durable than Chandler. And Chandler was probably my favorite Knick in that time period, but his attitude started to turn me off.
The Shump/JR trade is what it was. It was to dump JR and Shump was the price. Shump by himself was only going to get us a back end 1st rounder and it netted us the equvilant talentwise in Lance. Lets not forget JR was unraveling and Melo wasn't/isn't capable of curbing him like Lebron is.
The thing about the Chandler trade is Phil admitted his biggest mistake was not talking Jae Crowder in that deal. The narrative of his trading ability changes with that one minor adjustment of taking Crowder instead of grabbing the 2nd round pick which became C Early. One move can change how a GM is viewed in this aspect and this is the one non-move that would have given us confidence in his ability to win trades.
Hey I agree, I love Crowder, but be honest did youbsee Crowder turning into what he is now? Crowder was just another swingman in Dallas following in the lineage of Josh Howard, the other guy with the funny haircut (Marquis Daniels) et al...all the same type of player. Yeah, hindsight Crowder has turned into this year's Demarre Carroll-Atlanta Version. He would be a great fit on this team or any team as a glue guy, but all GM's have that deal that they left money on the table after a few years to let deals marinate.
Maybe not, but there's no way really to know that. I just think Phil has been bashed so much that he has somehow become underrated in some aspects. He's been exceptional with what draft picks he's had, he's signed quality free agents with exception to Noah. O'Quinn and Kuz were bargains. Lopez, Lee, D Will, and Afflalo were safe, quality signings. His trades have been suspect, but the version of the Chandler deal where Crowder is included changes that perception a little. And as i stated earlier, if he has his 2014 and 2016 picks to work with, the perception of him as a President may change totally. I think his biggest downfall has been his lack of communication and accountability, which sort of goes against the idea that he would change the culture. That has been a big disappointment. The mind-games he plays may have worked fine in the 90s, but doesn't work with the weak-minded millennials in today's game. But from a basketball standpoint, he has taken short term risks while building long term success, and we are better off than we were before he got here.
holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
It has not been good, but I don't think that proves your point.
He has the difficult task of trying to balance a win-now desire with building a winning culture of system basketball, player drafting and development. He could have continued the trend of prior Knicks and surrounded Melo with the Kidds and Sheeds, and indeed his biggest failures are probably tied to his attempts to do so (Afflalo, Rose, Noah). So if he's worthy of criticism it's for not surrounding Melo with the right pieces. But I've asked this before and have heard nothing in response. Who would you have (could you have) surrounded him with, without the franchise digging yet another whole of no picks, space etc.?
Any guesses why all of Melo's "friends" decide to play elsewhere? Could it be because they fear they'll never touch the ball?
Phil has done enough to convince me he knows what a winning team and culture look like. His biggest issue is competing objectives of win-now and building a program
And to use your words, why isn't it the case that you're making Phil the scapegoat? Don't you think the players are more responsible for the performance and effort they put on the court, e.g., constant chucking of shots no matter how cold you are, tunnel vision when you have the ball, lack of effort on D. Is that Phil's fault, honestly?
Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
It has not been good, but I don't think that proves your point.He has the difficult task of trying to balance a win-now desire with building a winning culture of system basketball, player drafting and development. He could have continued the trend of prior Knicks and surrounded Melo with the Kidds and Sheeds, and indeed his biggest failures are probably tied to his attempts to do so (Afflalo, Rose, Noah). So if he's worthy of criticism it's for not surrounding Melo with the right pieces. But I've asked this before and have heard nothing in response. Who would you have (could you have) surrounded him with, without the franchise digging yet another whole of no picks, space etc.?
Any guesses why all of Melo's "friends" decide to play elsewhere? Could it be because they fear they'll never touch the ball?
Phil has done enough to convince me he knows what a winning team and culture look like. His biggest issue is competing objectives of win-now and building a program
And to use your words, why isn't it the case that you're making Phil the scapegoat? Don't you think the players are more responsible for the performance and effort they put on the court, e.g., constant chucking of shots no matter how cold you are, tunnel vision when you have the ball, lack of effort on D. Is that Phil's fault, honestly?
I assume that most know my point of view from day one when Phil took the job..Phil undermines his coach by asking them to run the triangle..I said it would happen when Phil took the job..Fisher confirmed it a few days ago..Byron Scott said it was happening..It's happening with Hornacek...So when I see the exact thing happening I thought would happen because of Phil's meddling, who can I blame???Who is my "scapegoat"???
Phil coach selections is sub par..He only pick coaches who he can control...Fisher confirmed he wasn't ready for such a job...Charles Barkley said Hornacek was hired because he can be controlled..I posted the video...So even before we get the to bad trades and the team on the court, Phil is completely responsible...
Now we can get into philosophy about a win now team, like Melo shouldn't be the main work horse, etc, which escapes this coach for some reason...We need a legit bench to rest the starters...Melo should be the guy playing in spurts like LeBron allows Kyre to be the main guy or Duncan allowing Parker to be the main guy and taking over in spurts back in the day..That's where should be Melo is if we are trying to win now..Maybe that's why Rose is here...Can someone tell the coach or is he confused with Rambis, Phil's spy, breathing the triangle down his neck???..So before we unpack that bag, there are lots of pieces missing that is Phil's responsibility that I personally can see, even if many just want to ignore it...We can spend a day breaking down the issues of the team...
holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
It has not been good, but I don't think that proves your point.He has the difficult task of trying to balance a win-now desire with building a winning culture of system basketball, player drafting and development. He could have continued the trend of prior Knicks and surrounded Melo with the Kidds and Sheeds, and indeed his biggest failures are probably tied to his attempts to do so (Afflalo, Rose, Noah). So if he's worthy of criticism it's for not surrounding Melo with the right pieces. But I've asked this before and have heard nothing in response. Who would you have (could you have) surrounded him with, without the franchise digging yet another whole of no picks, space etc.?
Any guesses why all of Melo's "friends" decide to play elsewhere? Could it be because they fear they'll never touch the ball?
Phil has done enough to convince me he knows what a winning team and culture look like. His biggest issue is competing objectives of win-now and building a program
And to use your words, why isn't it the case that you're making Phil the scapegoat? Don't you think the players are more responsible for the performance and effort they put on the court, e.g., constant chucking of shots no matter how cold you are, tunnel vision when you have the ball, lack of effort on D. Is that Phil's fault, honestly?
I assume that most know my point of view from day one when Phil took the job..Phil undermines his coach by asking them to run the triangle..I said it would happen when Phil took the job..Fisher confirmed it a few days ago..Byron Scott said it was happening..It's happening with Hornacek...So when I see the exact thing happening I thought would happen because of Phil's meddling, who can I blame???Who is my "scapegoat"???
Phil coach selections is sub par..He only pick coaches who he can control...Fisher confirmed he wasn't ready for such a job...Charles Barkley said Hornacek was hired because he can be controlled..I posted the video...So even before we get the to bad trades and the team on the court, Phil is completely responsible...
Now we can get into philosophy about a win now team, like Melo shouldn't be the main work horse, etc, which escapes this coach for some reason...We need a legit bench to rest the starters...Melo should be the guy playing in spurts like LeBron allows Kyre to be the main guy or Duncan allowing Parker to be the main guy and taking over in spurts back in the day..That's where should be Melo is if we are trying to win now..Maybe that's why Rose is here...Can someone tell the coach or is he confused with Rambis, Phil's spy, breathing the triangle down his neck???..So before we unpack that bag, there are lots of pieces missing that is Phil's responsibility that I personally can see, even if many just want to ignore it...We can spend a day breaking down the issues of the team...
How does he undermine a coach with his triangle, when they were hired to run it?
If they don't, how does he hire a coach who "He can control", but who then deviates from the triangle?
So basically he hires guys he can control, but then can't? Twice?
Is it possible the triangle is a progressive situation?
Yes, PHil is responsible for all things. EVERYTHING! So is every other team president.
Melo should be the guy, and when you have Lebron and KLove next to you, you can alternate "surges". Your comparing the knicks to a team that has gone to two finals in two years.
Holl, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the fact is Melo does not function in that capcity because the team is not good enough around him.
Rambis is a spy? Please expand? Is he there to disrupt the progress? Snitch?
Phil hired Fish to do a job. He was not doing it.
Phil hired JH to do a job. My take is he is giving JH the leeway to do things his way, but he wants the triangle to be a part of it.
holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
It has not been good, but I don't think that proves your point.He has the difficult task of trying to balance a win-now desire with building a winning culture of system basketball, player drafting and development. He could have continued the trend of prior Knicks and surrounded Melo with the Kidds and Sheeds, and indeed his biggest failures are probably tied to his attempts to do so (Afflalo, Rose, Noah). So if he's worthy of criticism it's for not surrounding Melo with the right pieces. But I've asked this before and have heard nothing in response. Who would you have (could you have) surrounded him with, without the franchise digging yet another whole of no picks, space etc.?
Any guesses why all of Melo's "friends" decide to play elsewhere? Could it be because they fear they'll never touch the ball?
Phil has done enough to convince me he knows what a winning team and culture look like. His biggest issue is competing objectives of win-now and building a program
And to use your words, why isn't it the case that you're making Phil the scapegoat? Don't you think the players are more responsible for the performance and effort they put on the court, e.g., constant chucking of shots no matter how cold you are, tunnel vision when you have the ball, lack of effort on D. Is that Phil's fault, honestly?
I assume that most know my point of view from day one when Phil took the job..Phil undermines his coach by asking them to run the triangle..I said it would happen when Phil took the job..Fisher confirmed it a few days ago..Byron Scott said it was happening..It's happening with Hornacek...So when I see the exact thing happening I thought would happen because of Phil's meddling, who can I blame???Who is my "scapegoat"???
Phil coach selections is sub par..He only pick coaches who he can control...Fisher confirmed he wasn't ready for such a job...Charles Barkley said Hornacek was hired because he can be controlled..I posted the video...So even before we get the to bad trades and the team on the court, Phil is completely responsible...
Now we can get into philosophy about a win now team, like Melo shouldn't be the main work horse, etc, which escapes this coach for some reason...We need a legit bench to rest the starters...Melo should be the guy playing in spurts like LeBron allows Kyre to be the main guy or Duncan allowing Parker to be the main guy and taking over in spurts back in the day..That's where should be Melo is if we are trying to win now..Maybe that's why Rose is here...Can someone tell the coach or is he confused with Rambis, Phil's spy, breathing the triangle down his neck???..So before we unpack that bag, there are lots of pieces missing that is Phil's responsibility that I personally can see, even if many just want to ignore it...We can spend a day breaking down the issues of the team...
who were your coach choices?
I hope you don't say Kerr or Walton because they were Phil's too, and I know when he was talking kerr no one but one was publicly saying Kerr would kill it like he eventually did